I have come to realize

[ttribe]

On 9/6/2016 at 2:11 PM, sam said:

I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites.

I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible.

If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison.

Rodney Meldrum, is that you?

[sam]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Yeah, but you said "But all evidence is showing that Father Clercq used characters that they already have"

It seems to me there is no "evidence" of this other than the nature of the symbols themselves, and the fact that about four of them have some Egyptian-seeming provenance. How about the hundreds of others? No evidence from him that he copied symbols being used by the Mic Mac children, etc. Although we do know Natives used bark to draw picture stories etc, I don't believe any survive which show this kind of writing... at all. NO one ever claimed the N. American Natives could write that I know of in any language at the time of colonization by Europeans.

This is what the mik maq told clerc that they had a written language.

 

“They hold, further, that it could well have been a fact that these individuals were instructed in the sacred mysteries of our holy Religion, and that they had even a knowledge and the use of letters, since, in the establishment of colonies, it is customary to send there men who are alike learned and pious, in order that they may teach to the peoples, along with purely human knowledge, the most solid maxims of Christian wisdom and piety. Nobody, however, having followed them in these glorious employments, the knowledge which they had of the true God, of letters, and of their origin, was thus gradually lost and effaced from the minds of their unfortunate posterity by the lapse of time.”
(Clercq 1680 pg. 86)

“These people had received in times past a knowledge of the Gospel and of Christianity, which they have finally lost through the negligence and the licentiousness of their ancestors.”

 

[sam]

Silas T Rand who spoke Hebrew Compared the Mik Mak language to Hebrew

“There are also some words in the language which resemble Greek. The Micmac word Ellenu, an Indian, is not very different from Hellene, a Greek. Ellenu esit (“He speaks Micmac”) is strikingly like the Greek, Hellenize (“He speaks Greek”). But in other respects the language resembles the Hebrew, especially in the suffixes by which the pronouns are connected in the accusative case with the verb.”
 

[Atheist Mormon]

3 hours ago, sam said:

Unless you can prove otherwise the tribes east of the Rocky Mountain are a perfect fit. Names of some tribes and chiefs match up not to mention artifacts.

I don't need to prove anything.....As an amateur photographer I've collected thousands of pictures from hundreds of sites. Have to admit not consciously looked for Nephite / Native American connection (since there's not any).

[sam]

I think its ironic that their Egyptian like characters can so easily be passed off when a tribe close to the location of the Hill Cumorah have Hebrew beliefs their language is compared to Hebrew they once stated they had a written language and have an account of Christ visit. 

[sam]

8 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't need to prove anything.....As an amateur photographer I've collected thousands of pictures from hundreds of sites. Have to admit not consciously looked for Nephite / Native American connection (since there's not any).

there are plenty of artifacts and archeological sites in North America

[RevTestament]

13 minutes ago, sam said:

I think its ironic that their Egyptian like characters can so easily be passed off when a tribe close to the location of the Hill Cumorah have Hebrew beliefs their language is compared to Hebrew they once stated they had a written language and have an account of Christ visit. 

See what I bolded there. This is Clercqs position regarding their written language - they themselves said they had none. They once did but lost it. As you quote:

19 minutes ago, sam said:

This is what the mik maq told clerc that they had a written language.

 

“They hold, further, that it could well have been a fact that these individuals were instructed in the sacred mysteries of our holy Religion, and that they had even a knowledge and the use of letters, since, in the establishment of colonies, it is customary to send there men who are alike learned and pious, in order that they may teach to the peoples, along with purely human knowledge, the most solid maxims of Christian wisdom and piety. Nobody, however, having followed them in these glorious employments, the knowledge which they had of the true God, of letters, and of their origin, was thus gradually lost and effaced from the minds of their unfortunate posterity by the lapse of time.”
(Clercq 1680 pg. 86)

“These people had received in times past a knowledge of the Gospel and of Christianity, which they have finally lost through the negligence and the licentiousness of their ancestors.”

 

While it may be true that they had previously had a knowledge of some writing, what they tell Clercq is that they lost it. So all those characters Clercq came up with he is saying HE assigned for them...not something they had since in his belief they had lost their knowledge of letters and writing. So your "evidence" of Egyptian characters just went up in smoke by Clercq's own words.

[sam]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

See what I bolded there. This is Clercqs position regarding their written language - they themselves said they had none. They once did but lost it. As you quote:

While it may be true that they had previously had a knowledge of some writing, what they tell Clercq is that they lost it. So all those characters Clercq came up with he is saying HE assigned for them...not something they had since in his belief they had lost their knowledge of letters and writing. So your "evidence" of Egyptian characters just went up in smoke by Clercq's own words.

If you go by that then Christ visited them at one time at least according to their own tradition. That had missionaries who would teach biblical principles beliefs and culture as explained in the bible. But it was lost fits the Book of Mormon perfectly.

[RevTestament]

27 minutes ago, sam said:

If you go by that then Christ visited them at one time at least according to their own tradition. That had missionaries who would teach biblical principles beliefs and culture as explained in the bible. But it was lost fits the Book of Mormon perfectly.

I am just going by what Clercq says they told him - and yes it does sound like missionary work. Whether they would remember that 1300 years later is somewhat dubious. Nevertheless his own words seem to shut down your theory that he was using their writing symbols, since he says they lost their knowledge of their writing. Therefore, he came up with those symbols...not the Micmac.

[sam]

39 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I am just going by what Clercq says they told him - and yes it does sound like missionary work. Whether they would remember that 1300 years later is somewhat dubious. Nevertheless his own words seem to shut down your theory that he was using their writing symbols, since he says they lost their knowledge of their writing. Therefore, he came up with those symbols...not the Micmac.

I don't think so. It's sounds like to me they knew of some of their own traditional characters but did not know enough to compose sentences.

[sam]

46 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I am just going by what Clercq says they told him - and yes it does sound like missionary work. Whether they would remember that 1300 years later is somewhat dubious. Nevertheless his own words seem to shut down your theory that he was using their writing symbols, since he says they lost their knowledge of their writing. Therefore, he came up with those symbols...not the Micmac.

To shut down my theory you need to show clercq knew and read Egyptian hieroglyphics 

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, sam said:

Jewish hamsa symbol used by Pre history native Americans.

Belief in flying serpents as stated by nephi. These depictions found on pottery

Old world Assyrian ties when the tribe of Manasseh was deported to the Assyrian empire

How frustrating it must be for Native American, or any indigenous person around the world, to deal with the endless tampering and misinterpretation of their beliefs by outsiders. Imagine 500 years from now a Chinese missionary digging through the ruins of Provo and finding the temple. But yet every painting and artifact found is misidentified in a well-intentioned, but misguided. attempt to prove the truthfulness of his foreign faith and the antiquity of some future Chinese deity. 

Sam...serpent worship was around many centuries before Nephi. The hamsa symbol used by native americans is not "Jewish". Assyrians did not sail up the Saint Lawrence in 600 BC and morph into Mic Maq.

Its OK to believe those things if you want, but please don't tell others that they believe the same things, just because it makes you feel more confident in your own faith.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, sam said:

To shut down my theory you need to show clercq knew and read Egyptian hieroglyphics 

No, friend I am not going to show that. I have lots of other things to do. But I wouldn't put it past a Jesuit to have such symbols in one of their books...

To support your theory you need to show anywhere else where the Micmac had used such symbols. They are telling Le Clercq they stopped using symbols and writing long before he came along. Show from an independent source they used those symbols, petroglyphs etc, and then I will put it in my book... otherwise, it's not worth much of anything.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

They are telling Le Clercq they stopped using symbols and writing long before he came along....

And it appears he thought the markings used by the individual children were created by them and unique to each of them if I read the comment correctly.

[sam]

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

No, friend I am not going to show that. I have lots of other things to do. But I wouldn't put it past a Jesuit to have such symbols in one of their books...

To support your theory you need to show anywhere else where the Micmac had used such symbols. They are telling Le Clercq they stopped using symbols and writing long before he came along. Show from an independent source they used those symbols, petroglyphs etc, and then I will put it in my book... otherwise, it's not worth much of anything.

You would have to sow that he had the Heiroglyph in his notebook  but also had the rosetta stone. Egytian hieroglyphs were undecipherable until the 1820 predating Clercq by almost 200 years.

 

15 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

How frustrating it must be for Native American, or any indigenous person around the world, to deal with the endless tampering and misinterpretation of their beliefs by outsiders. Imagine 500 years from now a Chinese missionary digging through the ruins of Provo and finding the temple. But yet every painting and artifact found is misidentified in a well-intentioned, but misguided. attempt to prove the truthfulness of his foreign faith and the antiquity of some future Chinese deity. 

Sam...serpent worship was around many centuries before Nephi. The hamsa symbol used by native americans is not "Jewish". Assyrians did not sail up the Saint Lawrence in 600 BC and morph into Mic Maq.

Its OK to believe those things if you want, but please don't tell others that they believe the same things, just because it makes you feel more confident in your own faith.

Its not my fault North American

[sam]

16 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

How frustrating it must be for Native American, or any indigenous person around the world, to deal with the endless tampering and misinterpretation of their beliefs by outsiders. Imagine 500 years from now a Chinese missionary digging through the ruins of Provo and finding the temple. But yet every painting and artifact found is misidentified in a well-intentioned, but misguided. attempt to prove the truthfulness of his foreign faith and the antiquity of some future Chinese deity. 

Sam...serpent worship was around many centuries before Nephi. The hamsa symbol used by native americans is not "Jewish". Assyrians did not sail up the Saint Lawrence in 600 BC and morph into Mic Maq.

Its OK to believe those things if you want, but please don't tell others that they believe the same things, just because it makes you feel more confident in your own faith.

oops accidently pressed the button to soon I meant to  say its not my fault that Native Americans used a hamsa symbol. Its not my fault they believed in flying serpents as described in the Book of Mormon. Its not my fault that they described serpents as fiery as described in the Book of Mormon. Its not my fault they have Isreali dna. that the Book of Mormon names are also chief names and places and tribe names of native americans. And they have traditional accounts that match the Book of Mormon perfectly. Also I never said that assyrians traveled up the Saint Lawrence sea way. I stated that since Manasseh was conquered by the Assyrians that Laman and lemual reverted back to pagan Assyrian beliefs in there rebellion against Nephi.

[sam]

9 minutes ago, sam said:

You would have to sow that he had the Heiroglyph in his notebook  but also had the rosetta stone. Egytian hieroglyphs were undecipherable until the 1820 predating Clercq by almost 200 years.

 

Its not my fault North American

The edit function this forum is not working for me.

You would have to show that he had the Hieroglyph in his notebook but also had the rosetta stone. Egyptian hieroglyphs were undecipherable until the 1820 predating Clercq by almost 200 years.

[Rajah Manchou]

10 minutes ago, sam said:

oops accidently pressed the button to soon I meant to  say its not my fault that Native Americans used a hamsa symbol. Its not my fault they believed in flying serpents as described in the Book of Mormon. Its not my fault that they described serpents as fiery as described in the Book of Mormon. Its not my fault they have Isreali dna. that the Book of Mormon names are also chief names and places and tribe names of native americans. And they have traditional accounts that match the Book of Mormon perfectly. Also I never said that assyrians traveled up the Saint Lawrence sea way. I stated that since Manasseh was conquered by the Assyrians that Laman and lemual reverted back to pagan Assyrian beliefs in there rebellion against Nephi.

You're right its not your fault that native Americans used a hamsa symbol, but a hamsa symbol is not uniquely Jewish. Its all over. If you've been to any market from north Africa to east Asia, you've probably seen a hamsa. You're also right that it is not your fault that native Americans describe serpents as fiery. Everyone that plays Pokemon Go might describe serpents as fiery. That doesn't mean their ancestors were Jews. Its also not your fault that Native americans have Israeli DNA. That's entirely the fault of the Eurasians that migrated to America 15,000 years ago. 

The criteria you mention above can be applied equally to thousands of cultures around the world, but that hardly makes everyone in the world a crypto-Mormon.

Book of Mormon modeling is a delicate thing. I'm probably guilty myself as I fumble around trying to find a setting for the Lehites. But I do try to be careful not to make claims for a people that they aren't making for themselves. The other thread where we discussed Chinese civilization coming from Egypt or their characters being related to Genesis are good examples. But both of these proposals are coming out of China and are being discussed by Chinese academics and Chinese Christians. So no worries.

The efforts of Meso apologists to place the Lehites within existing cultures without interpreting those cultures are a step forward. It allows indigenous Maya to remain Maya while also permitting Mormons space to explore their beliefs within the same setting. Its not always easy to do, and of course some conflicts are inevitable (eg. the identity of the people during the 200 years when there were no -ites), but I think its important to not dump our beliefs on others just because it makes us feel better.

[RevTestament]

28 minutes ago, sam said:

You would have to sow that he had the Heiroglyph in his notebook  but also had the rosetta stone. Egytian hieroglyphs were undecipherable until the 1820 predating Clercq by almost 200 years.

 See the scepter of Christ symbol. It is pretty universal in the Catholic church. A circle with a cross on top... Micmac? not really.

[sam]

Just now, RevTestament said:

 See the scepter of Christ symbol. It is pretty universal in the Catholic church. A circle with a cross on top... Micmac? not really.

That symbol is universal among all Christian religions I don't see that as a problem but as more evidence. This symbol was used by the Hopewell and also held sacred by them.

[Rajah Manchou]

29 minutes ago, sam said:

I meant to  say its not my fault that Native Americans used a hamsa symbol. 

Also, CFR for the hamsa used by native Americans. 
Humans throughout history have had hands with five fingers, so I'm curious what makes the Hopewell hamsa an authentic semitic hamsa.

[sam]

3 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Also, CFR for the hamsa used by native Americans. 
Humans throughout history have had hands with five fingers, so I'm curious what makes the Hopewell hamsa an authentic semitic hamsa.

Its on the rattle snake disc.

 

http://www.geocities.ws/donperry44111/missartifacts1.html

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Everyone that plays Pokemon Go might describe serpents as fiery. That doesn't mean their ancestors were Jews.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Calm

[sam]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Ya Nephi was silly for teaching the Nephites about fiery serpents.

[Calm]

No, Nephi was silly for teaching them Pokemon.  It is a strange and evil addiction and has been known to destroy civilizations.

I really prefer when people actually read posts rather than knee-jerk react to what they imagine was said or implied.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Calm