strappinglad Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: All but three governors of Utah have been LDS. So, we are saying that the Nephite territory was like Utah in that they were the near majority and ran everything pretty much , while the Lamanite territory was like um Montana , where the Nephites were in a very small minority and kept their collective heads down ??
ksfisher Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 19 minutes ago, strappinglad said: So, we are saying that the Nephite territory was like Utah in that they were the near majority and ran everything pretty much , while the Lamanite territory was like um Montana , where the Nephites were in a very small minority and kept their collective heads down ?? Neither, just something to think about.
JLHPROF Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 1 hour ago, James Tunney said: Would it change your mind if the above were proven to be invented? Nope. Quote What if someone told you that they had seen the afterlife and that it was nothing like mormonism or christianity claims? When you asked for proof, that person called you wicked and adulterous because you asked for a sign, how would you react? Wouldn't bother me, and I wouldn't ask for proof so your hypothetical doesn't apply. You cannot prove these things so seeking proof is a pointless endeavor. 1
James Tunney Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Nope. Wouldn't bother me, and I wouldn't ask for proof so your hypothetical doesn't apply. You cannot prove these things so seeking proof is a pointless endeavor. That just seems preposterous to me that you would still believe even though what you believe turned out to be invented. I know you don't really believe this because I am pretty sure you look at other religions and somehow, some way, know that they aren't God's one and only, right? So, obviously, when it comes to other religious belief, you play my game. Why not play it with your religion too? You can freely question the other but not your own? What if it wasn't what it claims to be? 1
carbon dioxide Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 5 hours ago, sam said: At this point the Hopewell win by default unless someone comes up with a civilization found in central or south America or at this point I will take any civilization. No. Unless you can account for all the groups of people living in the Book of Mormon time frame and know their history very well, you can't disprove a population of people did not exist back then that matches the Nephites. If you want to believe the Hopewell indians are the Nephites, I don't think any LDS members will bash you are call you a bad member. Now if you insist that members must believe the Hopewell group is the Nephites then you might cross the line. If God wanted us to know the facts on this, he would reveal it. It would make our lives a lot easier at presenting the Book of Mormon to the world. Apparently God is not interested in this stuff so he has not done it.
sam Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 2 hours ago, cdowis said: Wow, maybe the Nephites lived in North America! Sam, why don't you tell us about it. LOL https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/
JLHPROF Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 51 minutes ago, James Tunney said: That just seems preposterous to me that you would still believe even though what you believe turned out to be invented. I know you don't really believe this because I am pretty sure you look at other religions and somehow, some way, know that they aren't God's one and only, right? So, obviously, when it comes to other religious belief, you play my game. Why not play it with your religion too? You can freely question the other but not your own? What if it wasn't what it claims to be? Don't need to. My testimony is based on what God said to me. That is all anyone's testimony can be. Proof or lack of proof is irrelevant to a spiritual belief. 3
Damien the Leper Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 1 hour ago, James Tunney said: That just seems preposterous to me that you would still believe even though what you believe turned out to be invented. I know you don't really believe this because I am pretty sure you look at other religions and somehow, some way, know that they aren't God's one and only, right? So, obviously, when it comes to other religious belief, you play my game. Why not play it with your religion too? You can freely question the other but not your own? What if it wasn't what it claims to be? Everything JS taught about his version of Christianity and Masonry could be proven a lie, whether by empirical or supernatural means, and the LDS church would continue to go on and it's membership would still continue to believe, pay tithe and go to the temple. I honestly see nothing wrong with that as it is not my choice to make. The same could be said for any person(s) and religion. Missionaries could come to my door and proclaim JS is a prophet and my response would be "Awesome!". I'd then give them a few bottles of water and tell them to have a nice day. 1
sam Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, Valentinus said: Everything JS taught about his version of Christianity and Masonry could be proven a lie, whether by empirical or supernatural means, and the LDS church would continue to go on and it's membership would still continue to believe, pay tithe and go to the temple. I honestly see nothing wrong with that as it is not my choice to make. The same could be said for any person(s) and religion. Missionaries could come to my door and proclaim JS is a prophet and my response would be "Awesome!". I'd then give them a few bottles of water and tell them to have a nice day. Actually native American practice of Masonry has proven Smith right. Native Americans were practicing Masonry before Europeans arrived see link then go to the temple section. https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/
Brant Gardner Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 6 hours ago, sam said: Actually native American practice of Masonry has proven Smith right. Native Americans were practicing Masonry before Europeans arrived see link then go to the temple section. I admit to having only skimmed the article. It is pretty typical of that type of literature, and there isn't any element of it that survives solid examination. The linguistics are pre-modern (for example, linguists tell us that there can be up to a 5% similarity between sounds/meanings in two languages and they are be related at all). The archaeology is based on "looks like" similarities that are no longer similar when examined. A particularly egregious example was the "bone box" comparison. An ossuary was compared to a burial lined with stone. It is true that both have stone involved, and both are funereal, but an ossuary is not a coffin. Look it up. Just because you can put two things side by side and say they are similar does not mean that they really are--or more importantly, that there is a connection. Finally to the point of the Masonic information--the pre-modern collectors of "native lore" weren't particularly careful--or knew much about what they were doing. They often repeated stories that they had already adapted to what they understood, and the Masonic elements are an excellent example (a different example, but similar process, resulted in the Christianization of the Quetzalcoatl deity from Central Mexico). 2
Atheist Mormon Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 16 hours ago, ksfisher said: Since you already know the answer that leaves zero room to have a discussion. Your mind is made up. What would you expect him to do? He doesn't get any evidential response from modern archeology/anthropology, despite the claims of supporters of existence of a Nephite civilization. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I have come to realize that this is completely irrelevant to the doctrine contained within the Book of Mormon. Just as some scholars doubting the Exodus due to lack of evidence doesn't make the law of Moses any less valid. Just as some scholars doubting the existence of a historical Christ due to lack of evidence doesn't make Christianity any less valid. It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh a sign (proof) instead of relying on faith. It's amazing (hypothetically speaking) after accusing the guy of being a "fake" "charlatan" He's telling me; "What a wicked Generation"... .(All I asked was some demonstration of power).. I'd have better suggestion to strike me dead or something so he could make an example out of my wicked unbelief. I don't disrespect anyone's Belief/Faith. To me this is personal.
bcuzbcuz Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh a sign (proof) instead of relying on faith. Yeah, I use that line all the time when the police pull me over and ask for my ID and proof of registration. 1
Damien the Leper Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 43 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: It's amazing (hypothetically speaking) after accusing the guy of being a "fake" "charlatan" He's telling me; "What a wicked Generation"... .(All I asked was some demonstration of power).. I'd have better suggestion to strike me dead or something so he could make an example out of my wicked unbelief. I don't disrespect anyone's Belief/Faith. To me this is personal. 1
The Nehor Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Valentinus said: Exactly the kind of disrespect I would expect from an evil hell-bent ignorant brainwashed bigoted cultist. #stoprespectingtheatheistcult Edited September 7, 2016 by The Nehor 1
Ed Goble Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 18 hours ago, sam said: I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites. I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible. If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison. I'm afraid that you are mistaken. A people can be part of another culture, just like Mormons are a part of a broader culture. And so, the Book of Mormon civilizations are precisely those we are finding now in archaeological contexts that are just given names by archaeologists that differ from BOM names.
Ed Goble Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 16 hours ago, RevTestament said: In a lot of ways, I feel as you do, but trying to sort through the remnants in archeological data has been a challenge to say the least. My personal feeling is that there is much better data for Mesoamerican archeology than N. American archeology.... which is sad. The United States has from the outset skewed the data it would save, and early on there was no established scholarly community to save artifacts in an organized fashion. Most of the sites esp in New England have been utterly destroyed without sufficiently being studied making it all the more difficult to reconstruct history. Nevertheless, I will say I seem to see Lamanite influences in Uto-Aztecan peoples and Mayan peoples. Yes, I think some of it was destroyed, but I think there is a lot to be found. There is a lot of evidence for northward migration and mixing between the Hopewell and Maya.
Ed Goble Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 10 hours ago, sam said: Actually native American practice of Masonry has proven Smith right. Native Americans were practicing Masonry before Europeans arrived see link then go to the temple section. https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/ It is interesting that a lot of the content and evidence used to promote the Heartland theory for the Book of Mormon is a bunch of old newspaper reports and old claims in old books that are not vetted by modern archaeologists, nor are a lot of the artifacts that were claimed to be found in these sources available for modern scrutiny. This is why I am no longer comfortable with the use of sources such as this. Heartlanders need to up their game in the source material that they use, I'm afraid, if they want to be taken more seriously. These types of sources are only starting points, because they are only suggestive. They are not very good evidence. 3
JLHPROF Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 50 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: Yeah, I use that line all the time when the police pull me over and ask for my ID and proof of registration. Yeah, because that's a faith vs proof situation too. The police expect you to operate on faith just like God does. 1
sam Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: What would you expect him to do? He doesn't get any evidential response from modern archeology/anthropology, despite the claims of supporters of existence of a Nephite civilization. Not quite the archeological record of the Hopewell matches up extremely well with the Nephites.
ERayR Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 18 hours ago, sam said: I'm not looking for proof for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon I know by studying and praying about the Book of Mormon that it is true. I just want to do a one on one comparison between the North American model Hopewell Indians and the central or south American model civilization that is considered to be the Nephites that's all. But at this point I don't think researchers have ever stated that a particular civilization is considered the Nephites like the Hopewell are. Then do the work. Quit expecting someone else to do it for you. 1
ERayR Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 12 hours ago, James Tunney said: That just seems preposterous to me that you would still believe even though what you believe turned out to be invented. I know you don't really believe this because I am pretty sure you look at other religions and somehow, some way, know that they aren't God's one and only, right? So, obviously, when it comes to other religious belief, you play my game. Why not play it with your religion too? You can freely question the other but not your own? What if it wasn't what it claims to be? How has it turned out to be "invented"?
Anijen Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 17 hours ago, Nemesis said: Ok so over the past few years you've come to this site under 3 different usernames peddling the same wares. You have never been in it for a discussion, so what's your point in being here again? Are you seriously trying to discuss or are you just preaching? Nemesis Giggle 17 hours ago, sam said: ... for the strengths ... of the Hopewell being the Nephites. Double giggle. Quote People on this forum can point out some of the areas that need more research or is not holding up. Many have. Brant Gardner has been very respectful and has shown a huge amount of patience with you. Obvious from this post more than I have shown. However I have posted about population and writing a requirement, but is lacking with the Hopewell. these two elements, in my opinion, alone discount the Hopewell. 3
Ed Goble Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Anijen said: Giggle Double giggle. Many have. Brant Gardner has been very respectful and has shown a huge amount of patience with you. Obvious from this post more than I have shown. However I have posted about population and writing a requirement, but is lacking with the Hopewell. these two elements, in my opinion, alone discount the Hopewell. Of course. They are personal requirements that you personally require. Yet you won't allow for Nephite dominion from Mesoamerica over an illiterate farm folk majority. That is wrong headed thinking.
sam Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Anijen said: Giggle Double giggle. Many have. Brant Gardner has been very respectful and has shown a huge amount of patience with you. Obvious from this post more than I have shown. However I have posted about population and writing a requirement, but is lacking with the Hopewell. these two elements, in my opinion, alone discount the Hopewell. Given the advance nature of the Hopewell civilization the idea that it could not support the civilization mentioned in the Book of Mormon I think is opinion. The are actually thousands of artifacts same have estimated tens of thousands of old world hieroglyph writing on them. Its just that the current belief by archeologist is that these artifacts were made by two people with a insatiable desire to make fake Indian artifacts tied to the old world. http://michiganrelics.com/ Edited September 7, 2016 by sam grammer
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