sam Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: No, Nephi was silly for teaching them Pokemon. It is a strange and evil addiction and has been known to destroy civilizations. I really prefer when people actually read posts rather than knee-jerk react to what they imagine was said or implied. Fiery serpents was taught by Nephi and it shows up in prehistory native American tradition along with plethora of other Book of Mormon names stories artifacts culture etc
Rajah Manchou Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, sam said: Its on the rattle snake disc. http://www.geocities.ws/donperry44111/missartifacts1.html Since the provenance of the rattlesnake disc is questionable, and the design doesn't appear to be ancient, most experts believe it is a fraud. But let's say it is authentic. It still doesn't provide evidence of Hebrews in North America. It just as easily provides evidence to "most people" of a belief in a "portal to another world" or a path to the afterlife. It could also provide evidence that the ancient Hopewell are Tibetan Buddhists. Quote Executed perhaps around 1300 AD, it is a powerful image that seems to speak to the subconscious. “Most people are pretty sure the hand and eye are a symbol of a portal to the other world," says Moundville archaeologist Jim Knight. “The knotted rattlesnakes are harder to cinch. But it’s all about how to get deceased people to the afterlife." In his work “The Mythic Image," popular mythologist Joseph Campbell compared the disc to the traditional culture of Tibet, according to the “Ancient American" magazine, which featured the Moundville artifact on the cover of one of its issues. A hand with five fingers could be interpreted as proof of anything you might want to prove.
Calm Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 And I never said "nay" to that. I thought his Pokemon Go reference was choice though, my daughter is a fan.
Rajah Manchou Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 6 minutes ago, sam said: Fiery serpents was taught by Nephi and it shows up in prehistory native American tradition along with plethora of other Book of Mormon names stories artifacts culture etc OK, so imagine 500 years from now a Pokemonist finds a Book of Mormon and reads Nephi's reference to fiery serpents and is convinced it is proof that Mormons worship Pokemon. Just because two different cultures have similar symbols does not mean those two cultures are related. Not sure this discussion is going anywhere, so I'll step out now. Thanks sam, and best wishes. 1
Brant Gardner Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: Not sure this discussion is going anywhere, so I'll step out now. Thanks sam, and best wishes. Agreed, but since this particular discussion is a dead end, I'll pass on an interesting tidbit. The Mesoamerican feathered serpent often has an interesting feature. Particularly in the homeomorphic versions, the facial mask show fangs at the back of the mouth rather than the front as with most serpents. There are such snakes, and one of them is really important to the discussion, because it is an east Asian snake that "flies." It flattens its body and can "fly" for a pretty fair distance (there are videos on the Internet). It is fascinating that there is such a flying serpent, and that it happens to have that type of fangs--and we see it in Mesoamerica. Nothing to to with the Book of Mormon, of course, but I do suspect that it represents some cultural contact from east Asia among Mesoamericans at an early date. Unfortunately, we can't find anything specific--just tantalizing clues. This is one of them. 4
Calm Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 They are apparently called "rear fanged": https://www.thailandsnakes.com/venomous/rear-fanged/paradise-tree-snake-chrysopelea-paradisii-venomous-not-dangerous/ 2
Rajah Manchou Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said: I do suspect that it represents some cultural contact from east Asia among Mesoamericans at an early date. Unfortunately, we can't find anything specific--just tantalizing clues. This is one of them. The naga cults of Southeast Asia do remind me of the the serpent worship in Mesoamerica, and the naga were well-known for their ability to cover long distances across open oceans from Madagascar to South America. And the similarities in naga and mayan architecture...but as any google search for "naga maya" will reveal, it turns into alien astronauts real quick. Regardless, its still fascinating. Edited September 8, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
notHagoth7 Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 6 hours ago, RevTestament said: ...NO one ever claimed the N. American Natives could write that I know of in any language at the time of colonization by Europeans... "...Twentieth century archeology has confirmed that Native Americans have been using birch bark scrolls for over 400 years...." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiigwaasabak
why me Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, sam said: Not quite the archeological record of the Hopewell matches up extremely well with the Nephites. I thnk that it would be wonderful to find definite proof that the people in the book of mormon have been found. Then, we can be in the church, and be happy active members too. We can live assured that there is a god and that we will all be with our heavenly parents someday. It would be wonderful to have such proof. But, there isn't any. Every religion that needs to rely on a supernatural power must do so on faith. If god were proven to exist would we have any atheists? Probably not. Most would be on the same road to get back to god. But what kind of world would that be? Maybe just a little boring. And if I remember correctly, just a little satanic. All would be saved...all would get the glory. All would return. Edited September 8, 2016 by why me
Atheist Mormon Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 10 hours ago, sam said: there are plenty of artifacts and archeological sites in North America Sam, Sam, Sam........Yes there are but if the absence of the materials in those sites cannot tell you BoM is fantasy, no one can...... You simply cannot make up for chariots, horses, wheat....so on Look I'm not ashamed to have hope to find some type of an artifact out there which will prove the existence of Aliens but do you think I'd bet a dime for 10K? absolutely not.
Atheist Mormon Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Since the provenance of the rattlesnake disc is questionable, and the design doesn't appear to be ancient, most experts believe it is a fraud. But let's say it is authentic. It still doesn't provide evidence of Hebrews in North America. It just as easily provides evidence to "most people" of a belief in a "portal to another world" or a path to the afterlife. It could also provide evidence that the ancient Hopewell are Tibetan Buddhists. A hand with five fingers could be interpreted as proof of anything you might want to prove. This effort of yours to find Nephite clues in these cultures and artifacts are so futile, whatever angle you are shooting for is wrong. https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/archaeology/mississippian.shtml http://shpo.sc.gov/res/native/Pages/naperiods.aspx Somebody did their homework already for us to see it....
RevTestament Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 7 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: "...Twentieth century archeology has confirmed that Native Americans have been using birch bark scrolls for over 400 years...." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiigwaasabak Um yeah. Why didn't you include my full quote? 13 hours ago, RevTestament said: Yeah, but you said "But all evidence is showing that Father Clercq used characters that they already have" It seems to me there is no "evidence" of this other than the nature of the symbols themselves, and the fact that about four of them have some Egyptian-seeming provenance. How about the hundreds of others? No evidence from him that he copied symbols being used by the Mic Mac children, etc. Although we do know Natives used bark to draw picture stories etc, I don't believe any survive which show this kind of writing... at all. NO one ever claimed the N. American Natives could write that I know of in any language at the time of colonization by Europeans.
RevTestament Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 36 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: This effort of yours to find Nephite clues in these cultures and artifacts are so futile, whatever angle you are shooting for is wrong. https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/archaeology/mississippian.shtml http://shpo.sc.gov/res/native/Pages/naperiods.aspx Somebody did their homework already for us to see it.... Links to woodland culture sites proves something? That's about like linking to a Palestinian archeology site to disprove the Bible...
Rajah Manchou Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: This effort of yours to find Nephite clues in these cultures and artifacts are so futile, whatever angle you are shooting for is wrong. https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/archaeology/mississippian.shtml http://shpo.sc.gov/res/native/Pages/naperiods.aspx Somebody did their homework already for us to see it.... Sorry, was that comment intended for me? Rajah Manchou.
RevTestament Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: See the scepter of Christ symbol. It is pretty universal in the Catholic church. A circle with a cross on top... Micmac? not really. 10 hours ago, sam said: That symbol is universal among all Christian religions I don't see that as a problem but as more evidence. This symbol was used by the Hopewell and also held sacred by them. The only evidence we have is that it was used by le Clercq in creating signs for the Micmac. I haven't seen it anywhere among "Hopewell" culture. Micmac could be descendants, but archeologically, they aren't "Hopewell."
sam Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Since the provenance of the rattlesnake disc is questionable, and the design doesn't appear to be ancient, most experts believe it is a fraud. But let's say it is authentic. It still doesn't provide evidence of Hebrews in North America. It just as easily provides evidence to "most people" of a belief in a "portal to another world" or a path to the afterlife. It could also provide evidence that the ancient Hopewell are Tibetan Buddhists. A hand with five fingers could be interpreted as proof of anything you might want to prove. The Hamsa symbol is also found on other artifacts go to page 36 on the link to this Book. The symbol in this case is with the sacred greek style cross. https://books.google.com/books?id=TxYyscZlOXoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=arts+of+the+North+American+Indian&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-2p74-v_OAhUBRpQKHfN3C1kQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=arts of the North American Indian&f=false Lets go down a list of some of the similarities that Native Americans have with the Book of Mormon. 1) During a revelation about Zelph the Prophet Joseph Smith stated that Zelph was under the Prophet Onandagu. There is a native American tribe called Onondaga. 2) In the Book of Mormon it mentions a hill called Onidah there is a native American tribe called Oneida phonetically exactly the same. 3 The Native American tribe Ojibwa who have the second highest concentration of a middle eastern dna marker and have Chief name of Keeshkemun phonetically the same to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and Book of Mormon city of the same name. 4 By revelation the border of the Lamanites is in North America D&C54:8 5) The anti Nephi Lehi stop fighting by burying their weapons in the ground so do the Native Americans that is where the saying bury the hatchet comes from. Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.” (South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785) 6) Pre history Native American forts where buit in the same wayas described in the Book of Mormon Alma 50:2-4 2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities. 3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high. 4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them. “Robert Riordan, an archaeologist with Wright State University, has directed many seasons of excavations at the Pollock Works revealing a complicated site history. The works appear to have been constructed in five major stages beginning as early as AD 50. One of these stages involved the erection of a large, timber stockade along the top of the earthen embankments.” “Archaeological excavation revealed that the town was surrounded by a stockade, with the Ohio River acting as a barrier on the south side. A gateway was placed to the east, about a fourth of the way around from where the eastern flank of the stockade meets the river. A second barrier, a type of picket fence, was set 14 feet (4.3 m) outside the stockade. It was designed to slow the attackers as they came into range. 7) Native Americans held metal plates as sacred. “According to Morgan, the Muscogee proper, and perhaps also their incorporated tribes, have 22 clans. Of these the Wind appears to be the leading one, possessing privileges accorded to no other clan, including the hereditary guardianship of the ancient metal tablets which constitute the saftey of the tribe.” “To support their pretensions, this family hold in their possession a circular plate of virgin copper, on which is rudely marked indentations and hieroglyphics denoting the number of generations of the family who have passed away since they first pitched their lodges at Shaug-a-waum-ik-ong and took possession of the adjacent country, including the Island of La Pointe or Mo-ningwun-a-kaun-ing…. The old chief kept it carefully buried in the ground, and seldom displayed it” 8) Native American temples and rituals “Their temples were built with much skill and labor. They made very beautiful things with all kinds of materials, such as gold, silver, stones, wood, fabrics, feathers, and many other things in which they made their skill appear. “A remarkable temple was situated in the town of Talmaco, upon the Savannah River, three miles distant from Cutifatchique, near Silver Bluff. It was more than one hundred feet in length, and fifty feet in width. The walls were high in proportion, and the roof steep and covered with mats of split cane, interwoven so compactly that they resembled the rush carpeting of the Moors.” The American Naturalist, Vol 3 The Natchez tribe a tribe in the Mississippi area have temples with many of the same implements found in Hebrew temples. In Hebrew temples, you have a rectangular shaped building with high walls, all constructed and furnished with great craftsmanship and lavishness. Inside you have the menorah, an eternal light (oil lamp), a veil, and the Ark of the Covenant. The Natchez have an eternal fire that it is held with such regard that if it goes out those responsible for it are put to death. They have an alter inside their temple. They have a curtain or veil. Behind the veil is a wicker basket that no one is allowed to open. The way that the Wicker basket is presented in their temple behind a curtain with the area behind the curtain/veil held sacred similar to the Ark of the Covenant. I could go on but there is to much to post 1
sam Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 9 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: "...Twentieth century archeology has confirmed that Native Americans have been using birch bark scrolls for over 400 years...." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiigwaasabak That's very informative thank you for posting that.
Rajah Manchou Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: This effort of yours to find Nephite clues in these cultures and artifacts are so futile, whatever angle you are shooting for is wrong. As usual you are convinced my efforts are futile before you even finish reading. "Most experts believe it is a fraud. But let's say it is authentic. It still doesn't provide evidence of Hebrews in North America." "A hand with five fingers could be interpreted as proof of anything you might want to prove." That was the angle I was shooting for. And you say I'm wrong? Hopefully you've just made a mistake and responded to the wrong comment.
sam Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Sam, Sam, Sam........Yes there are but if the absence of the materials in those sites cannot tell you BoM is fantasy, no one can...... You simply cannot make up for chariots, horses, wheat....so on Look I'm not ashamed to have hope to find some type of an artifact out there which will prove the existence of Aliens but do you think I'd bet a dime for 10K? absolutely not. The Hopewell grew may grass a grass seed the same as wheat also being a grass seed. They also cultivated little barley. A species of horse went extinct in North America. The extinction is supposed to have happened post Book of Mormon but I think there is evidence this is not the case. The Hopewell trade that extended for thousands of miles is good evidence that they were using horses and chariots for travel and to carry goods. Hopewell brought obsidian from the Rocky Mountains back to their sites in Ohio and Indiana. Scientist have stated that horse extinction probably happened due to Human predation unless of course as stated in the Book of Mormon that they had domesticated horses. There is no definitive evidence for now of horses and chariots during the Book of Mormon period but I find the speculative evidence intriguing.
sam Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: This effort of yours to find Nephite clues in these cultures and artifacts are so futile, whatever angle you are shooting for is wrong. https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/archaeology/mississippian.shtml http://shpo.sc.gov/res/native/Pages/naperiods.aspx Somebody did their homework already for us to see it.... As long as this symbol which is found on multiple artifacts is during and post Book of Mormon timelines then there is no issue. If someone can find this symbol pre Book of Mormon than it blows any connection to the Book of Mormon out of the water. I cannot find any artifacts with this symbol pre Book of Mormon
RevTestament Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 1 hour ago, sam said: Lets go down a list of some of the similarities that Native Americans have with the Book of Mormon. 1) During a revelation about Zelph the Prophet Joseph Smith stated that Zelph was under the Prophet Onandagu. There is a native American tribe called Onondaga. 2) In the Book of Mormon it mentions a hill called Onidah there is a native American tribe called Oneida phonetically exactly the same. 3 The Native American tribe Ojibwa who have the second highest concentration of a middle eastern dna marker and have Chief name of Keeshkemun phonetically the same to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and Book of Mormon city of the same name. 4 By revelation the border of the Lamanites is in North America D&C54:8 I do believe those points are relevant and present a challenge for the Mesoamerican model. Quote 6) Pre history Native American forts where buit in the same wayas described in the Book of Mormon Alma 50:2-4 2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities. 3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high. 4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them. “Robert Riordan, an archaeologist with Wright State University, has directed many seasons of excavations at the Pollock Works revealing a complicated site history. The works appear to have been constructed in five major stages beginning as early as AD 50. One of these stages involved the erection of a large, timber stockade along the top of the earthen embankments.” This is the kind of thing that is relevant, and we need a lot more of. Archeological dates, and corresponding relics, etc which correspond with the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, I find the data very sparse, or at least difficult to find. The archeological record is very jumbled, and a lot of sites utterly destroyed.
Atheist Mormon Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: Links to woodland culture sites proves something? That's about like linking to a Palestinian archeology site to disprove the Bible... please send some Nephite ones.
RevTestament Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 12 hours ago, Brant Gardner said: Agreed, but since this particular discussion is a dead end, I'll pass on an interesting tidbit. The Mesoamerican feathered serpent often has an interesting feature. Particularly in the homeomorphic versions, the facial mask show fangs at the back of the mouth rather than the front as with most serpents. There are such snakes, and one of them is really important to the discussion, because it is an east Asian snake that "flies." It flattens its body and can "fly" for a pretty fair distance (there are videos on the Internet). It is fascinating that there is such a flying serpent, and that it happens to have that type of fangs--and we see it in Mesoamerica. Nothing to to with the Book of Mormon, of course, but I do suspect that it represents some cultural contact from east Asia among Mesoamericans at an early date. Unfortunately, we can't find anything specific--just tantalizing clues. This is one of them. 12 hours ago, Calm said: They are apparently called "rear fanged": https://www.thailandsnakes.com/venomous/rear-fanged/paradise-tree-snake-chrysopelea-paradisii-venomous-not-dangerous/ Thanks guyz, I found this very interesting. Perhaps there really is a "winged serpent." https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/655/0*tAdvivkYEvS1IM39.png how do you insert linked pictures into posts?
notHagoth7 Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: Um yeah. Why didn't you include my full quote? If you read the article I linked to, it specifically said that over the centuries, such bark scrolls contain, among other things, "esoteric symbols". What is esoteric to one actually *is* writing/language to another. Based on that, (i) do you still feel there was some need to cite you in full, and (ii) are we perhaps on the same page (or bark scroll) now? Edited September 8, 2016 by notHagoth7
RevTestament Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said: If you read the article I linked to, it specifically said that over the centuries, such bark scrolls contain, among other things, "esoteric symbols". What is esoteric to one actually *is* writing/language to another. Based on that, are we perhaps on the same page (or bark scroll) now? Don't know. From what I have heard the Natives themselves say, they used the bark scrolls as picture records. That is pretty "esoteric." Some tribes did keep their records that way, but of course the government took them away. Don't know if they are all destroyed or what. The story of the Natives is usually very sad, and I dislike the way a supposedly Christian nation treated them, but believe it was prophesied by the BoM.
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