Back To The Garden: Eden In Mormonism

[Stone holm]

Since this has become an important issue in another thread about pre-Adamites, I thought it deserving of its own thread. I admit to being motivated by a desire to have my cake (love of Genesis stories as fact) and eat it too (understanding that evolutionary theory is supported by the evidence.) However, despite that I think that most members who have not read carefully all of the specific teachings on the subject, when asked whether the Garden of Eden was a separate and special place on the planet, as opposed to encompassing the entire planet, would say "Well of course it was, God drove Adam and Eve out of it." So I have the brashness of saying, that it is consistent with our teachings to say that the Garden of Eden, was quite literally that, a special place on the planet that was set apart from the rest of the planet. My feeling is that why there may be no specific teaching to that effect, it is the best explanation of why the evidence in the Earth screams a contradiction to Genesis. I would love to hear from the linquist Geeks as to what "Garden" meant in the original manuscript languages.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Stone holm

[thesometimesaint]

Since this has become an important issue in another thread about pre-Adamites, I thought it deserving of its own thread. I admit to being motivated by a desire to have my cake (love of Genesis stories as fact) and eat it too (understanding that evolutionary theory is supported by the evidence.) However, despite that I think that most members who have not read carefully all of the specific teachings on the subject, when asked whether the Garden of Eden was a separate and special place on the planet, as opposed to encompassing the entire planet, would say "Well of course it was, God drove Adam and Eve out of it." So I have the brashness of saying, that it is consistent with our teachings to say that the Garden of Eden, was quite literally that, a special place on the planet that was set apart from the rest of the planet. My feeling is that why there may be no specific teaching to that effect, it is the best explanation of why the evidence in the Earth screams a contradiction to Genesis. I would love to hear from the linquist Geeks as to what "Garden" meant in the original manuscript languages.

I'm not a linguist so I can't help you there. I have a hard enough time with American English. But from the Scriptures when all was made ready A&E were created, then somehow introduced to The Garden. If the entire earth was the Garden there is little point to introduce them to it.

[Stone holm]

I'm not a linguist so I can't help you there. I have a hard enough time with American English. But from the Scriptures when all was made ready A&E were created, then somehow introduced to The Garden. If the entire earth was the Garden there is little point to introduce them to it.

Basically the same position my ultimate earthly authority took except she focused not on their entrance, but their exit.

[Ahab]

Since this has become an important issue in another thread about pre-Adamites, I thought it deserving of its own thread. I admit to being motivated by a desire to have my cake (love of Genesis stories as fact) and eat it too (understanding that evolutionary theory is supported by the evidence.) However, despite that I think that most members who have not read carefully all of the specific teachings on the subject, when asked whether the Garden of Eden was a separate and special place on the planet, as opposed to encompassing the entire planet, would say "Well of course it was, God drove Adam and Eve out of it." So I have the brashness of saying, that it is consistent with our teachings to say that the Garden of Eden, was quite literally that, a special place on the planet that was set apart from the rest of the planet. My feeling is that why there may be no specific teaching to that effect, it is the best explanation of why the evidence in the Earth screams a contradiction to Genesis. I would love to hear from the linquist Geeks as to what "Garden" meant in the original manuscript languages.

If you'll look at the accounts more closely you'll see that not only do we know it was it a specific place on the planet but we also have a description of the general area, like the names and directions of the rivers that were running either through it or by it.

What doesn't stand out as clearly is how big Eden, itself, was, and while it may be true that Eden was an entire planet, and maybe or maybe not the same planet we now refer to as Earth, the garden is described and we know a little about where that was. I suggest doing a search on LDS.org to see all that we know about it.

[Stone holm]

If you'll look at the accounts more closely you'll see that not only do we know it was it a specific place on the planet but we also have a description of the general area, like the names and directions of the rivers that were running either through it or by it.

What doesn't stand out as clearly is how big Eden, itself, was, and while it may be true that Eden was an entire planet, and maybe or maybe not the same planet we now refer to as Earth, the garden is described and we know a little about where that was. I suggest doing a search on LDS.org to see all that we know about it.

Would you rephrase that second to last sentence, not sure I understood it.

[Ahab]

Would you rephrase that second to last sentence, not sure I understood it.

Sure.

Before: What doesn't stand out as clearly is how big Eden, itself, was, and while it may be true that Eden was an entire planet, and maybe or maybe not the same planet we now refer to as Earth, the garden is described and we know a little about where that was.

After: There is Eden, and there is the garden of Eden. We've been given a lot of detail about the garden of Eden but we're not told much about Eden, itself, so we're not as clear in our knowledge of Eden. We don't know where it was, exactly, and we don't know how big it was, either, so we don't know if it was a continent or whether it was an entire planet (including both land and water). And if it was a planet we don't know for sure whether it was the same planet we now refer to as Earth. Thus, Eden could be another name for the planet we now refer to as Earth or it could be some other planet where Adam and Eve lived before they were sent to this planet.

[JAHS]

Sure.

Before: What doesn't stand out as clearly is how big Eden, itself, was, and while it may be true that Eden was an entire planet, and maybe or maybe not the same planet we now refer to as Earth, the garden is described and we know a little about where that was.

After: There is Eden, and there is the garden of Eden. We've been given a lot of detail about the garden of Eden but we're not told much about Eden, itself, so we're not as clear in our knowledge of Eden. We don't know where it was, exactly, and we don't know how big it was, either, so we don't know if it was a continent or whether it was an entire planet (including both land and water). And if it was a planet we don't know for sure whether it was the same planet we now refer to as Earth. Thus, Eden could be another name for the planet we now refer to as Earth or it could be some other planet where Adam and Eve lived before they were sent to this planet.

There are a couple of references that tend to support this notion. Brigham young said:

"Here let me state to all philosopahers of every class upon the earth. when you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth. You tell me what I deem an idle tale when you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner. You are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities. Where the gods dwell mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth." (Journal of Discourses 7:285-286)

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:

"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)

However, Abraham wrote:

". . . there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man's spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [i.e., the divine spiritual powers that are required to quicken all forms of organized life], and man became a living soul."

And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed." (Abr 5: 6,7,8

Somewhat contradictory information. The Abraham scripture seems to say they were created here out of the dust of the earth while the prophets suggest they came from another planet.

Edited June 17, 2013 by JAHS

[Ahab]

There are a couple of references that tend to support this notion. Brigham young said:

"Here let me state to all philosopahers of every class upon the earth. when you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth. You tell me what I deem an idle tale when you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner. You are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities. Where the gods dwell mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth." (Journal of Discourses 7:285-286)

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:

"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)

However, Abraham wrote:

". . . there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man's spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [i.e., the divine spiritual powers that are required to quicken all forms of organized life], and man became a living soul."

And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed." (Abr 5: 6,7,8

Somewhat contradictory information. The Abraham scripture seems to say they were created here out of the dust of the earth while the prophets suggest they came from another planet.

Dust of the earth = elements that are in the ground/soil

Brigham and Joseph also talked about how the Father and Mother of Adam and Eve ate fruit that was in the garden of Eden and, having the substance of that food in their bodies and the substance of that food having come from the ground/soil in which the plants bearing fruit had grown, their children also had elements of the ground/soil in them from their parents.

[CV75]

Since this has become an important issue in another thread about pre-Adamites, I thought it deserving of its own thread. I admit to being motivated by a desire to have my cake (love of Genesis stories as fact) and eat it too (understanding that evolutionary theory is supported by the evidence.) However, despite that I think that most members who have not read carefully all of the specific teachings on the subject, when asked whether the Garden of Eden was a separate and special place on the planet, as opposed to encompassing the entire planet, would say "Well of course it was, God drove Adam and Eve out of it." So I have the brashness of saying, that it is consistent with our teachings to say that the Garden of Eden, was quite literally that, a special place on the planet that was set apart from the rest of the planet. My feeling is that why there may be no specific teaching to that effect, it is the best explanation of why the evidence in the Earth screams a contradiction to Genesis. I would love to hear from the linquist Geeks as to what "Garden" meant in the original manuscript languages.

Whatever happened, that Adam and the animals were formed outside the garden and brought into it, and Eve was formed from Adam inside the garden, and their offspring born outside the garden, indicate that moer than textbook evolution must have been going on.

[CV75]

I'm not a linguist so I can't help you there. I have a hard enough time with American English. But from the Scriptures when all was made ready A&E were created, then somehow introduced to The Garden. If the entire earth was the Garden there is little point to introduce them to it.

Yes--there was the planet, a place called Eden (elevated so as to provide water for the rest of the planet), and a garden eastward in Eden from which Adam and Eve were expelled. Adam was brought into the garden, but Eve was formed in the garden.

[tagriffy]

There are a couple of references that tend to support this notion. Brigham young said:

"Here let me state to all philosopahers of every class upon the earth. when you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth. You tell me what I deem an idle tale when you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner. You are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities. Where the gods dwell mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth." (Journal of Discourses 7:285-286)

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:

"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)

However, Abraham wrote:

". . . there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man's spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [i.e., the divine spiritual powers that are required to quicken all forms of organized life], and man became a living soul."

And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed." (Abr 5: 6,7,8

Somewhat contradictory information. The Abraham scripture seems to say they were created here out of the dust of the earth while the prophets suggest they came from another planet.

Obviously the prophets did not consider themselves bound by literal interpretations. Something to think about in itself.

[bcuzbcuz]

Whatever happened, that Adam and the animals were formed outside the garden and brought into it, and Eve was formed from Adam inside the garden, and their offspring born outside the garden, indicate that moer than textbook evolution must have been going on.

The major Egyptian museums around the world, (and which I've been to five of them) contain over 6 million objects recovered from Egypt. Of course, there is King Tut and Ramses II and Thutmoses, but also pottery from over 7000 years ago. There is a sequential development from one type of pottery to the next.

The same is true for the cultural developments in southern Turkey, only they go back 10000 years in history.

Just when did Eden occur?

[Stone holm]

Sure.

Before: What doesn't stand out as clearly is how big Eden, itself, was, and while it may be true that Eden was an entire planet, and maybe or maybe not the same planet we now refer to as Earth, the garden is described and we know a little about where that was.

After: There is Eden, and there is the garden of Eden. We've been given a lot of detail about the garden of Eden but we're not told much about Eden, itself, so we're not as clear in our knowledge of Eden. We don't know where it was, exactly, and we don't know how big it was, either, so we don't know if it was a continent or whether it was an entire planet (including both land and water). And if it was a planet we don't know for sure whether it was the same planet we now refer to as Earth. Thus, Eden could be another name for the planet we now refer to as Earth or it could be some other planet where Adam and Eve lived before they were sent to this planet.

Where do you get the idea that Eden is separate from the garden from the scriptural phraseology or some other source

[Mark Beesley]

Eden is the name of the Earth in the Adamic language. The garden was a place specially prepared on Eden for Adam and Eve to be tempted. Eden was created in, and enjoyed a position close to, Kolob and was thus in the presence of God. However, incident to the Fall, Eden was removed from it celestial position moved to a vastly more removed corner of the universe, perhaps even a different dimension. Thus, Eden lost its beauty, its purity, and its splendor that came from being in God's presence. The Earth's redemption will consist of it returning to its original position and place in the universe, nigh unto God.

[Ahab]

Where do you get the idea that Eden is separate from the garden from the scriptural phraseology or some other source

1) In scripture, it's called the garden of Eden

2) In scripture, the garden was said to be eastward in Eden

3) God has shared his faith/assurance with me to help me know how to think of these things

[Ahab]

Eden is the name of the Earth in the Adamic language.

CFR. Sounds like it might be true but I haven't received confirmation from God to assure me about that.

The garden was a place specially prepared on Eden for Adam and Eve to be tempted. Eden was created in, and enjoyed a position close to, Kolob and was thus in the presence of God. However, incident to the Fall, Eden was removed from it celestial position moved to a vastly more removed corner of the universe, perhaps even a different dimension.

You can nix the different dimenstion part unless by dimension you're referring to another and higher order of heaven.

Thus, Eden lost its beauty, its purity, and its splendor that came from being in God's presence.

Proximity to God wasn't so much the cause of it's purity as was the fact that it had not fallen, yet, so it was still pure and perfect.

The Earth's redemption will consist of it returning to its original position and place in the universe, nigh unto God.

... and being cleansed from all that is mucking it up so that it is then a perfectly pure and splended, again.

[Stone holm]

Eden is the name of the Earth in the Adamic language. The garden was a place specially prepared on Eden for Adam and Eve to be tempted. Eden was created in, and enjoyed a position close to, Kolob and was thus in the presence of God. However, incident to the Fall, Eden was removed from it celestial position moved to a vastly more removed corner of the universe, perhaps even a different dimension. Thus, Eden lost its beauty, its purity, and its splendor that came from being in God's presence. The Earth's redemption will consist of it returning to its original position and place in the universe, nigh unto God.

How does "eastward" have any sense if we are talking about a whole planet. And while I am aware of the occasional suggestions that the Earth as a planet fell through the heavens, do we just ignore all the evidence that our solar system can be plotted out in a predictable pattern which suggests that Earth has always been a part of this solar system, or do you mean the whole solar system moved?

[Mark Beesley]

CFR.

I am my own best reference.

[Stone holm]

CFR. Sounds like it might be true but I haven't received confirmation from God to assure me about that.

You can nix the different dimenstion part unless by dimension you're referring to another and higher order of heaven.

Proximity to God wasn't so much the cause of it's purity as was the fact that it had not fallen, yet, so it was still pure and perfect.

... and being cleansed from all that is mucking it up so that it is then a perfectly pure and splended, again.

Ahab, you do realise how arrogant the whole confirmation bit comes off on a blog like this don't you? I mean your ideas are interesting but those references just irritate people.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Stone holm

[theplains]

Adam was brought into the garden, but Eve was formed in the garden.

Formed how?

Thanks,

Jim

[Mark Beesley]

How does "eastward" have any sense if we are talking about a whole planet. And while I am aware of the occasional suggestions that the Earth as a planet fell through the heavens, do we just ignore all the evidence that our solar system can be plotted out in a predictable pattern which suggests that Earth has always been a part of this solar system, or do you mean the whole solar system moved?

Holy Cow, I'm making this up as I go along. You need all of the details all at the same time? How 'bout I just give you some chocolate milk for now and the cake comes later, 'k?

(But yeah, I'll go with that . . . the whole solar system fell . . . no wait, actually it was the whole Milky Way Galaxy that moved out of its original place - and dimension - . . . sorry Ahab, I ain't abandoning the different dimensional thing yet.)

[Ahab]

How does "eastward" have any sense if we are talking about a whole planet.

That's why I lean more toward the idea that Eden was a continent... back when there was only one continent on this planet because the land had not been divided, yet.

And while I am aware of the occasional suggestions that the Earth as a planet fell through the heavens, do we just ignore all the evidence that our solar system can be plotted out in a predictable pattern which suggests that Earth has always been a part of this solar system, or do you mean the whole solar system moved?

I'm leaning toward the idea that the whole solar system was moved.

[Ahab]

Ahab, you do realise how arrogant the whole confirmation bit comes off on a blog like this don't you? I mean your ideas are interesting but those references just irritate people.

Just smile, Stone holm. No need to get irritated. If you don't want to believe me, then just don't.

We're all just sharing our ideas and beliefs here, don't cha know. If you really want to KNOW what is true, then ask God.

[CV75]

The major Egyptian museums around the world, (and which I've been to five of them) contain over 6 million objects recovered from Egypt. Of course, there is King Tut and Ramses II and Thutmoses, but also pottery from over 7000 years ago. There is a sequential development from one type of pottery to the next.

The same is true for the cultural developments in southern Turkey, only they go back 10000 years in history.

Just when did Eden occur?

Eden was a place, not a when. You might as well ask where it was.

[CV75]

Formed how?

Thanks,

Jim

I think it is better to ascertain why Adam was formed outside, and later on Eve inside, the Garden of Eden. I think that would provide some insight as to how they were formed.