Back To The Garden: Eden In Mormonism

[CV75]

Under water as in Atlantean? Have never heard that one before.

I was thinking more in terms of a womb. But the pro-evolutionists would probably like the idea too.

[CV75]

No, you haven't shown that the place where Adam was formed was a separate place from Eden. The text does support the idea that place may not have been in the garden, but the text can NOT be construed to mean that place was NOT in Eden.

This is a bit funny because I explained it a couple of times in the earlier posts.

[Stone holm]

Well, although it is dangerous to bring up BY on this topic. But he did pretty much negate the whole formed from the dirt idea as anything more than a metaphor. And he did not need to be formed on this Earth in order to be placed in the Garden of Eden, plus I am not buying into the idea that Eden is synonymous with the Earth.

[Ahab]

Okay, I agree there was a place called Eden and that there was a general direction referred to as eastward in Eden, and that the garden was eastward in Eden....and that leads me to believe Adam was in Eden before he was in the garden how?

Okay, I agree there was a place called Eden and that there was a general direction referred to as eastward in Eden, and that the garden was eastward in Eden....and that leads me to believe Adam was in Eden before he was in the garden how?

Let's look at some text, again. Genesis 2:5-8.

5 …the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 ¶ And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden [*this is the first time the name of a place is mentioned]; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Envision that. I envision all of that happening in the same general area, the same area named Eden in verse 8. I envision our Father coming down to that place, the same earth and ground mentioned starting in verse 5, with him planting a garden eastward in that same general area where a mist from the earth watered the whole face of the ground.

[CV75]

Not necessarily the earth but from an earth.

For working purposes, according to Genesis 2, Eden was a place named in a location within God’s “work (verses 2, 3). The "work" is identified as the “heavens and the earth” (verse 1) but more specifically the “earth” as we know it (verse 5); and the garden of course was planted there (the earth, the area called Eden). And because the river originating in Eden parted and watered other areas seemingly being identified with locations on the earth, it would seem that Eden was a place on earth.

But this could also work on larger scales (as you suggest) as well as figuratively and symbolically, and there is good reasoning to think so. For example, the “river(s)” of Eden (if Eden is a planet) could be a kind of, or symbolic of, the “Kae-e-vanrash” Key which brings power and action into various other media, realms and planets.

[CV75]

Well, although it is dangerous to bring up BY on this topic. But he did pretty much negate the whole formed from the dirt idea as anything more than a metaphor. And he did not need to be formed on this Earth in order to be placed in the Garden of Eden, plus I am not buying into the idea that Eden is synonymous with the Earth.

Personally, I think just about everything we experience and interpret is by our subjective nature nothing but a metaphor (until we see as we are seen). For example, I know that I am a metaphor to you because your representation of me to yourself me is only your own reference for what I really am!

[Stone holm]

Personally, I think just about everything we experience and interpret is by our subjective nature nothing but a metaphor (until we see as we are seen). For example, I know that I am a metaphor to you because your representation of me to yourself me is only your own reference for what I really am!

Well yes you can think that way, but I tend to want to retain the babies when I throw out the bathwater, it just seems the sensible thing to do.

[Ahab]

Well, although it is dangerous to bring up BY on this topic. But he did pretty much negate the whole formed from the dirt idea as anything more than a metaphor.

I suggest you think some more about how our body is made of elements of the ground/earth which they will return to when they are buried after we die.

And he did not need to be formed on this Earth in order to be placed in the Garden of Eden,

Right, but the alternative is that we were formed on some other planet and then brought here as some kind of space alien.

plus I am not buying into the idea that Eden is synonymous with the Earth.

Me either, but I think it's likely that it was a continent on this Earth, otherwise the alternative is, again, that we came from some other planet.

[Stone holm]

I suggest you think some more about how our body is made of elements of the ground/earth which they will return to when they are buried after we die.

Right, but the alternative is that we were formed on some other planet and then brought here as some kind of space alien.

Me either, but I think it's likely that it was a continent on this Earth, otherwise the alternative is, again, that we came from some other planet.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the concept of a space alien, and I believe that in that I am in good company with BY. I agree with the notion that as you consume food grown here that you eventually become of this Earth because of your cells being replaced. (Wow, another Mormon theme from the Man of Steel -- that one just occurred to me.) In fact, I pretty much go with BYs viewpoint that the Earth was terraformed with various types of animals or proto-genetic molecules -- depending on whether you want to go the Creationism route or the Evolutionary route.

[Ahab]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the concept of a space alien, and I believe that in that I am in good company with BY. I agree with the notion that as you consume food grown here that you eventually become of this Earth because of your cells being replaced. (Wow, another Mormon theme from the Man of Steel -- that one just occurred to me.) In fact, I pretty much go with BYs viewpoint that the Earth was terraformed with various types of animals or proto-genetic molecules -- depending on whether you want to go the Creationism route or the Evolutionary route.

Then the issue basically boils down to timing. We know we (our kind of being) came from another planet to inhabit this one, so it's just a matter of understanding the timing involved in getting that done. At one time a little bit and then later a little bit more until at some point our colonization was completed, as far as getting our kind of being, and other kinds of beings, to this planet. Now it's just about how perfect we will become in the amount of time we have to work with.

[Stone holm]

Then the issue basically boils down to timing. We know we (our kind of being) came from another planet to inhabit this one, so it's just a matter of understanding the timing involved in getting that done. At one time a little bit and then later a little bit more until at some point our colonization was completed, as far as getting our kind of being, and other kinds of beings, to this planet. Now it's just about how perfect we will become in the amount of time we have to work with.

I tend to view the whole thing as God baking a cake, we are now just down to tweaking and twirling the frosting.

[Ahab]

I tend to view the whole thing as God baking a cake, we are now just down to tweaking and twirling the frosting.

We're the one making the cake, though, using the ingredients he gave us to make it with. I think we should set this one on fire soon and have him show us how to do it all again, correctly, from scratch.

[CV75]

Well yes you can think that way, but I tend to want to retain the babies when I throw out the bathwater, it just seems the sensible thing to do.

I’m actually an advocate that metaphors are very useful; they are all we have to go by when obtaining and processing information through the mortal senses, which only represent to us through image, sound, smell, sound, touch, etc. what is going on around us. We interpret the rest. And when it comes to covenants and applying the spiritual senses, I find metaphors an extremely valuable bridge between the temporal and the spiritual.

But since the thread is about a place most LDS agree existed for the sake of God completing His work and glory, it doesn’t matter if some accept the information and how they receive it as a metaphor or not; this does not diminish the covenants and what we do with them.

When you do the sensible thing, you are only acting on what are ultimately metaphors represented to you through the senses, whether they are babies or bathwater.

[Stone holm]

I’m actually an advocate that metaphors are very useful; they are all we have to go by when obtaining and processing information through the mortal senses, which only represent to us through image, sound, smell, sound, touch, etc. what is going on around us. We interpret the rest. And when it comes to covenants and applying the spiritual senses, I find metaphors an extremely valuable bridge between the temporal and the spiritual.

But since the thread is about a place most LDS agree existed for the sake of God completing His work and glory, it doesn’t matter if some accept the information and how they receive it as a metaphor or not; this does not diminish the covenants and what we do with them.

When you do the sensible thing, you are only acting on what are ultimately metaphors represented to you through the senses, whether they are babies or bathwater.

Yeah I confess to fundamentalist tendencies when it comes to the OT and in particular various stories in Genesis, modified only by BY's and JS's comments, so I tend to back away from the metaphorical tendency as opposed to finding other ways to reconcile religious and scientific collisions.

[Calm]

You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please—that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_2/The_Gospel—Growing_in_Knowledge,_etc.

[CV75]

Yeah I confess to fundamentalist tendencies when it comes to the OT and in particular various stories in Genesis, modified only by BY's and JS's comments, so I tend to back away from the metaphorical tendency as opposed to finding other ways to reconcile religious and scientific collisions.

I tend to lean that way also, but still find great value in metaphors (especially since everything we synthesize into our understanding is a metaphor anyway, though functionally they are “real”). And it is not only science that we must reconcile with religion, but anything else that is used to undermine the covenants. Plus, we need to make sure we reconcile our practice of religion with the covenants God offers each of His children.

So I see no difference if one receives a particular scripture passage as a metaphor or not, if it does not diminish the covenants and what he does with them. The purpose of one’s life experience is to derive more than literal meaning from it. Also, when we liken that which can be taken literally from the scriptures unto ourselves, we are actually turning them (or ourselves) into a useful metaphor, so it doesn’t seem to matter that one person sees Eden as figurative, another as literal, another as Earth, anotehr as another planet, another as a continent, and so forth.

[Stone holm]

I tend to lean that way also, but still find great value in metaphors (especially since everything we synthesize into our understanding is a metaphor anyway, though functionally they are “real”). And it is not only science that we must reconcile with religion, but anything else that is used to undermine the covenants. Plus, we need to make sure we reconcile our practice of religion with the covenants God offers each of His children.

So I see no difference if one receives a particular scripture passage as a metaphor or not, if it does not diminish the covenants and what he does with them. The purpose of one’s life experience is to derive more than literal meaning from it. Also, when we liken that which can be taken literally from the scriptures unto ourselves, we are actually turning them (or ourselves) into a useful metaphor, so it doesn’t seem to matter that one person sees Eden as figurative, another as literal, another as Earth, anotehr as another planet, another as a continent, and so forth.

Yeah, I tried to liken some of Exodus to myself as a small child with my trusty stick held over my head, but could never get the waters of the lake we lived at to part....was truly a crisis of faith for me back then...

[Ahab]

Yeah, I tried to liken some of Exodus to myself as a small child with my trusty stick held over my head, but could never get the waters of the lake we lived at to part....was truly a crisis of faith for me back then...

I've tried to ascend into heaven before. That hasn't worked out too well for me either, yet, but still I keep trying.

Hey, someday I may actually make it!

[Stone holm]

I've tried to ascend into heaven before. That hasn't worked out too well for me either, yet, but still I keep trying.

Hey, someday I may actually make it!

Yeah, there were a fair number of us trying to partake of the "stairway to heaven" back in my college days, some succeeded in going somewhere...most of us just ended with chalking it off to a bad trip...

[thesometimesaint]

Science is essentially Agnostic when it comes to religion. Science by definition can't confirm or deny any God or Godlike force.

[Ahab]

Science is essentially Agnostic when it comes to religion. Science by definition can't confirm or deny any God or Godlike force.

That depends on how you define science, I think. The scientific method can be used to learn about anything, including God.

[Stone holm]

That depends on how you define science, I think. The scientific method can be used to learn about anything, including God.

Yes, but not with our present technology.

[Ahab]

Yes, but not with our present technology.

Yes, even with that.

The scientific method:

1. Choose an idea and/or problem to research.

2. Hypothesize using if/then and/or cause/effect statements.

3. Experiment to test hypotheses.

4. Examine results of the experiment(s).

5. Record procedures so the experiment(s) can be duplicated.

6. Share what has been learned.

Suppose in step 1 you choose the idea of whether or not there is a God.

Suppose in step 2 you hypothesize thinking "God" is simply a word we use to refer to the most supreme being in all of existence, such that if there is a kind of being more supreme than any other, say in regards to intelligence, then you could consider that kind of being to be "God".

Suppose in step 3 you experiment with that hypothesis while looking for signs of intelligence in all forms of life.

Suppose in step 4 you see that some kinds of beings are more intelligent than some others, and that even within only one kind of being there are varying degrees of intelligence.

Suppose in step 5 you write down what you saw and how you saw it.

Suppose in step 6 you share what you learned with other people.

Whala. We call that kind of thing science.

[ERayR]

Yeah, I tried to liken some of Exodus to myself as a small child with my trusty stick held over my head, but could never get the waters of the lake we lived at to part....was truly a crisis of faith for me back then...

Miracles are not a solution for laziness. You were capable of walking around the lake..

[CV75]

Yeah, I tried to liken some of Exodus to myself as a small child with my trusty stick held over my head, but could never get the waters of the lake we lived at to part....was truly a crisis of faith for me back then...

And I'm sure you were eventually rewarded for your life's sorest trials, as I am sure you also learned to liken 1 Corinthians 13:11 to yourself as well!