59 replies to this topic

[Peppermint Patty]

Quote

When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.  Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:530

And this one:

Quote

If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. Lorenzo Snow, Collected Discourses

The saving principle of aTemple Sealing is so powerful that many prophets have used little qualifying language in their sweeping promises. For example, Brigham Young said, “I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 208).

It appears that the sealing power of righteous parents literally has the ability to intercede on behalf of wayward children, either in this life or the next.  For me, this is just another wonderful example of the power of the Atonement and mercy of our Savior.  

For me I take great comfort in this little-understood doctrine.  There is real power, beyond our own capacity to fully comprehend, offered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as it is manifested in the covenants and ordinances of a Temple Sealing.

What are your thoughts on how this applies to each of us through the sealing of Adam and Eve, our first parents?  

Also, is this a case where love, mercy and grace trumps the free agency of a wayward child?  

[mercyngrace]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

Also, is this a case where love, mercy and grace trumps the free agency of a wayward child?  

Nope. It's just evidence that the love of God (charity) never fails and that the human heart can only resist the pure and perfect love of God for so long.

[CV75]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

What are your thoughts on how this applies to each of us through the sealing of Adam and Eve, our first parents?  

Also, is this a case where love, mercy and grace trumps the free agency of a wayward child?  

They certainly entice one to choose salvation. This is my take on the quotes you provided:

When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost [The parents will always know where they are, will observe them, and offer them the path to exaltation] but will be saved [Salvation matches the degree of acceptance] by virtue of the covenant [The sealing covenant obligates and rewards parents to continually reach out to children] of their father and mother.

If [Salvation is a function of agency and to the degree the recipient will accept] you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has [Virtue is its own reward], until you get all your sons and daughters in the path [The path is not the destination; that is up to agency] of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not [Virtue is its own reward] because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save [Parents will provide children every opportunity to accept salvation to the degree they will accept] our posterity.

Where virtue is its own reward and parents are exalted beings, they will constantly provide the path for wayward children to follow, and find utmost joy in that righteous united effort. The sealing is the parent’s sacred covenant to do so. Their children follow the path as far as they are willing and qualify themselves to enjoy the benefits of the Atonement.

Adam and Eve are constantly engaged in righteousness and in influencing their posterity to choose salvation. Those who are sealed follow suit, with the aim of each generation to be sealed back and do the same thing.

[katherine the great]

It's certainly a balm to my soul.  God knows all and it's important to remember that no matter how much we love and fret over our wayward child, the Lord knows that child infinitely better than we do, and the Lord sent that child to us to be sealed to us, and then promised us from His eternal perspective and wisdom that that child will not ultimately be lost to us or Him.  That packs a powerful punch in my book!

[ERayR]

I strongly suspect that rightous parents may have children scattered accross the spectrum of the different glories of the heavens just as the now have them scattered accross the geography of the earth.  These children will still be part of the family where ever they are.

[katherine the great]

ERayR, on 31 December 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:

I strongly suspect that rightous parents may have children scattered accross the spectrum of the different glories of the heavens just as the now have them scattered accross the geography of the earth.  These children will still be part of the family where ever they are.

Would you consider the Telestial Kingdom to be in the "path of exaltation and glory"?

[The Nehor]

It's awesome. It means I'm going to be exalted. The only thing up in the air is whether I will need to spend time in hell before I get there.]

Currently I am voting "no" on that option.

[Peppermint Patty]

katherine the great said:

Would you consider the Telestial Kingdom to be in the "path of exaltation and glory"?

Great point, Katherine.  This is exactly what our leaders have teached.

I have found that many people in the Church do not want to believe a certain doctrine until they fully understand it. My advice to these people is, just believe it, and do your best to be that parent.  The important thing to understand is that the interpretation given by the leaders of the Church is "exaltation", not just salvation. That is what Lorenzo Snow and many other Prophets have said.  

James E. Faust, made the following comment in a talk concerning this doctrine of sealings:

Quote

A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.  If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,and after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. James Faust, Dear Are The Sheep Who Have Wandered

It's clear that some of these wayward children will have to repent in the next life, but will be exhalted after they have paid their debt.  I think it's a beautiful doctrine that shows the power, love and compassion of the Savior's Atonement.

Edited by Peppermint Patty, 31 December 2011 - 03:10 PM.

[bluebell]

My confusion comes in when i think about how, by the end of the Millenium, every child will be sealed to every parent.  If all children sealed to parents are promised exaltation, then wouldn't that mean that everyone will be exalted since everyone will be sealed?

This is one of those topics that i don't really understand.

[ERayR]

katherine the great, on 31 December 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Would you consider the Telestial Kingdom to be in the "path of exaltation and glory"?

All are kingdoms of glory except the kingdom of no glory or perdition.  There are differences of glory.  Whether or not it is in the path of exaltation does not mean that families are not sealed across the different boundries and IMNSHO is irrelevent to familial bonds.

[Duncan]

I , too, don't understand this very well and want to believe that all wayward Children will be exalted-I struggle with the idea that it doesn't matter what they do here and now because they can repent or not and all will be well. I think this is where the prodigal son comes into play and admitedly I am the older son who says wait and minute! I don't want to upset or offend any parent out there with children who are wayward or whatnot. I think that agency is paramount here, if they don't choose eternal life then sealings or not I don't know what will happen but trust whatever happens will be in everyone's best interests.

[ERayR]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

My confusion comes in when i think about how, by the end of the Millenium, every child will be sealed to every parent.  If all children sealed to parents are promised exaltation, then wouldn't that mean that everyone will be exalted since everyone will be sealed?

This is one of those topics that i don't really understand.

Being sealed to a family does not guarantee exaltation it only ties one to a family line.

[ERayR]

Duncan, on 31 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

I , too, don't understand this very well and want to believe that all wayward Children will be exalted-I struggle with the idea that it doesn't matter what they do here and now because they can repent or not and all will be well. I think this is where the prodigal son comes into play and admitedly I am the older son who says wait and minute! I don't want to upset or offend any parent out there with children who are wayward or whatnot. I think that agency is paramount here, if they don't choose eternal life then sealings or not I don't know what will happen but trust whatever happens will be in everyone's best interests.

Wayward children who are sealed to parents are under the same requirements as anyone else.  Sealing binds families within and across boundries, it does not guarantee exaltation.

[bluebell]

ERayR, on 31 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

Being sealed to a family does not guarantee exaltation it only ties one to a family line.

I realize that some interpret those quotes this way, but my question was more to those who do interpret the quotes to mean that all sealed wayward children will eventually be saved in the Celestial kingdom.  How would that work if everyone will be sealed?

For myself, i'm kind of on the fence about what the quotes are saying.

[ERayR]

bluebell, on 31 December 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

I realize that some interpret those quotes this way, but my question was more to those who do interpret the quotes to mean that all sealed wayward children will eventually be saved in the Celestial kingdom.  How would that work if everyone will be sealed?

For myself, i'm kind of on the fence about what the quotes are saying.

I think CV75 has it pretty close in the above post.

[Peppermint Patty]

ERayR,

I cannot say that I know how the promises will be fulfilled, in each case, but I have no doubt that God is faithful in this matter, since He has spoken this doctrine through his servants many times.

We have at least one clear example in scripture that explains the absolute power of exhaltation of sealing power. At the very least it gives us a glimpse into the extent that God will go to save his children. How eternally merciful God really is.

Quote

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. (D&C 132:26)

Edited by Peppermint Patty, 31 December 2011 - 03:22 PM.

[ERayR]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

ERayR,

I cannot say that I know how the promises will be fulfilled, in each case, but I have no doubt that God is faithful in this matter, since He has spoken this doctrine through his servants many times.

We have at least one clear example in scripture that explains the absolute power of exhaltation of sealing power. At the very least it gives us a glimpse into the extent that God will go to save his children. How eternally merciful God really is.

This applies to the marriage of a man and a woman.  I don't see how you can apply this to include the offspring.

[Peppermint Patty]

ERayR,

I appreciate your comments.  

Personally I'm happy with the interpretation that the quote means "exaltation", which would be consistent with longstanding doctrine taught in the Church concerning sealings and wayward children. Especially considering the fact that it can be established that those in lesser degrees of glory remain single, not enjoying the same relationship with one another as the exalted will. Even those who merit the celestial kingdom, who are not exalted, will "remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity" (D&C 132:17). So, I think that rules out any condition in the other degrees of glory that "will allow the relationship to continue". You see what I mean?

The intention of this thread is not to convince those who disbelieve such doctrine, or to offer alternate interpretations than what is taught in the Church, but to offer hope to those with wayward family members.

If you disbelieve the doctrine you will have to take it up with those authorized servants of the Lord who have taught it and who teach it. This doctrine is taught consistently from Joseph Smith until now, and is found in the current curriculum of the Church. But ultimately, you will have to decide for yourself what you believe in, like I have.

Edited by Peppermint Patty, 31 December 2011 - 03:31 PM.

[bluebell]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

The intention of this thread is not to convince those who disbelieve such doctrine, or to offer alternate interpretations than what is taught in the Church, but to offer hope to those with wayward family members.

I think it's a board rule that threads cannot be started, especially in the dialogue and discussion forum, where discussion and disagreement aren't welcome or sought.  I might be wrong on that but i think i've seen other threads where the mods have stated as such.  (Just an FYI)

Quote

If you disbelieve the doctrine you will have to take it up with those authorized servants of the Lord who have taught it and who teach it. This doctrine is taught consistently from Joseph Smith until now, and is found in the current curriculum of the Church. But ultimately, you will have to decide for yourself what you believe in, like I have.

I would love to here your thoughts on my previous question Peppermint.  How do you feel that this doctrine will work when eventually all will be sealed to their parents?   We know that sons of perdition will exist, for example, but we also know that those sons of perdition will also be sealed to their parents if in fact everyone must be sealed together as the scriptures teach.

I'm not arguing with your beliefs in the least, i'm just really interested to hear your take on this apparent contradiction.  

[ERayR]

Peppermint Patty, on 31 December 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

ERayR,

I appreciate your comments.  

Personally I'm happy with the interpretation that the quote means "exaltation", which would be consistent with longstanding doctrine taught in the Church concerning sealings and wayward children. Especially considering the fact that it can be established that those in lesser degrees of glory remain single, not enjoying the same relationship with one another as the exalted will. Even those who merit the celestial kingdom, who are not exalted, will "remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity" (D&C 132:17). So, I think that rules out any condition in the other degrees of glory that "will allow the relationship to continue". You see what I mean?

The intention of this thread is not to convince those who disbelieve such doctrine, or to offer alternate interpretations than what is taught in the Church, but to offer hope to those with wayward family members.

If you disbelieve the doctrine you will have to take it up with those authorized servants of the Lord who have taught it and who teach it. This doctrine is taught consistently from Joseph Smith until now, and is found in the current curriculum of the Church. But ultimately, you will have to decide for yourself what you believe in, like I have.

glory that "will allow the relationship to continue".  The relationship refered to is the relationship of marriage.  I have wayward children and I do not read it that way.  Would you really want your wayward children assigned to a place where they would not be comfortable and happy?  The family ties will continue.
Visits can and will be made.

Do you think all of God's children will be exalted?  Yet they are all offspring of parents who are sealed.