Happy Mother's Day!!

[ZealouslyStriving]

To all the Mamas, Aunties, Grammas... out there who have done their best to love, nurture, and teach their children the ways of righteousness, but have children who have, for a time, departed from the path:

- The Prodigal Son had a mother.
- Alma the Younger had a mother.
- The Sons of Mosiah had a mother.
- We are all Heavenly Mother's Children- saint and sinner...

You are not a failure as a Mother... 
All hope is not lost... 
Jesus relentlessly pursues after your babies... 

Keep believing, keep praying, keep watching, and see God's miracles performed in the lives of your children.

Happy Mother's Day! 💐 ❤️ 💐

[Tony uk]

I would like to pass on my best wishes, to all the mothers.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

To all the Mamas, Aunties, Grammas... out there who have done their best to love, nurture, and teach their children the ways of righteousness, but have children who have, for a time, departed from the path:

- The Prodigal Son had a mother.
- Alma the Younger had a mother.
- The Sons of Mosiah had a mother.
- We are all Heavenly Mother's Children- saint and sinner...

You are not a failure as a Mother... 
All hope is not lost... 
Jesus relentlessly pursues after your babies... 

Keep believing, keep praying, keep watching, and see God's miracles performed in the lives of your children.

Happy Mother's Day! 💐 ❤️ 💐

And yet these mothers are never mentioned in the scriptures….which kind of underlines the problem many women have in church of not naturally being recognized as contributing or even existing, except in programmed, limited settings.

But that is not actually why I felt a need to make a post at the moment…

Too be frank, Zealous, while I am positive you are very sincere in this and want to help others feel better (which is why I am risking hurting your feelings this way), this is not the message many*** mothers whose children do not believe or follow the teachings of the Restored Gospel need to hear today or any day for that matters in most public settings.  I am saying this publicly because you are not alone in making these kinds of comments.

If you feel inspired to give comfort and advice like this, then I would suggest in the future thinking about it for people you know personally who you hopefully understand well enough to know this would be comforting rather than condescending or even feel like a slap (reminding them yet again of the gap between dreams and reality if their feelings are of failure) or possible insult or at least misunderstanding (suggesting their children are failing in their paths of choice if they have peace like myself that they are on the path they need to be) and give it in a one to one setting so for that person your expression of support comes from a place of sincerity rather than feeling like it’s thrown out without regard to individual experience.  

Such family relationships are way too complicated of a situation to issue generic sympathy without it coming off as clueless in some way, missing what actually matters to many of the mothers. 

BYW, fathers should not be neglected in seeking inspiration to support because bluntly when done like this just to mothers, it too often feels to us (mothers with nonmember children) like responsibility or even blame is getting dumped primarily on the mothers or perhaps from a father’s POV (I don’t know this, but have wondered) they feel like no one feels they care as much about their children as the mothers do since such words are either shared to parents together or mothers alone typically.

Btw, I don’t know if many men realize this, but a huge number of women hate Mother’s Day even if their children are all in the Church.  Me personally, it’s like someone who has to be reminded to say “thank you” to me, it is not a spontaneous thought, but an obligation, so how deep of a feeling is it actually if one requires a push to say it?

***most in my experience, I have not actually heard a mother say they were comforted by such expressions of caring even when they felt people were sincerely trying rather than just performing what was expected

 

Edited May 11, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

And yet these mothers are never mentioned in the scriptures….which kind of underlines the problem many women have in church of not naturally being recognized as contributing or even existing, except in programmed, limited settings.

But that is not actually why I felt a need to make a post at the moment…

Too be frank, Zealous, while I am positive you are very sincere in this and want to help others feel better (which is why I am risking hurting your feelings this way), this is not the message many*** mothers whose children do not believe or follow the teachings of the Restored Gospel need to hear today or any day for that matters in most public settings.  I am saying this publicly because you are not alone in making these kinds of comments.

If you feel inspired to give comfort and advice like this, then I would suggest in the future thinking about it for people you know personally who you hopefully understand well enough to know this would be comforting rather than condescending or even feel like a slap (reminding them yet again of the gap between dreams and reality if their feelings are of failure) or possible insult or at least misunderstanding (suggesting their children are failing in their paths of choice if they have peace like myself that they are on the path they need to be) and give it in a one to one setting so for that person your expression of support comes from a place of sincerity rather than feeling like it’s thrown out without regard to individual experience.  

Such family relationships are way too complicated of a situation to issue generic sympathy without it coming off as clueless in some way, missing what actually matters to many of the mothers. 

BYW, fathers should not be neglected in seeking inspiration to support because bluntly when done like this just to mothers, it too often feels to us (mothers with nonmember children) like responsibility or even blame is getting dumped primarily on the mothers or perhaps from a father’s POV (I don’t know this, but have wondered) they feel like no one feels they care as much about their children as the mothers do since such words are either shared to parents together or mothers alone typically.

Btw, I don’t know if many men realize this, but a huge number of women hate Mother’s Day even if their children are all in the Church.  Me personally, it’s like someone who has to be reminded to say “thank you” to me, it is not a spontaneous thought, but an obligation, so how deep of a feeling is it actually if one requires a push to say it?

***most in my experience, I have not actually heard a mother say they were comforted by such expressions of caring even when they felt people were sincerely trying rather than just performing what was expected

 

No matter what someone might say, there will be someone who is offended- that can't stop us from offering heartfelt thoughts. 

Your response has solidified for me my thoughts that this place is so very toxic. I think I am done with MDDB.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No matter what someone might say, there will be someone who is offended- that can't stop us from offering heartfelt thoughts. 

Of course, you can offend anyone with what you say….especially if you don’t listen.

The question for me is if people care enough about showing regard for mothers, they have paid attention over the years to what mothers have said rather than just expressed what they themselves feel about the situation or want to hear (I think the lesson of treating others as we would be treated is not to treat people in the same ways we would treat ourselves, but rather as we would want people to listen to us and help us in ways that help us, so we need to listen to others to be able to help them in the way they need/want to be treated.

Now perhaps you have had a lot of experience with mothers who children have become nonbelievers saying they feel more supported when people express things as you have.  But for the last almost 50 years since I started hanging around mothers in Primary and RS (I started teaching Sunbeams and talking with their moms when I was 17), the vast majority of mothers have expressed to me their discomfort with Mother’s Day and most mothers whose children were nonbelievers said they avoided coming to Church on Mother’s Day or struggled every year forcing themselves to go.

It’s not that they didn’t appreciate supportive words, it’s that it just didn’t feel comforting unless it was in a much more personal style.  I know when mothers have shared their own struggles, that could resonate with them.

Has there ever been someone who tried to comfort you who even though you knew they meant well, it still ended up hurting more than it helped?

I would feel so bad (and have) if I found out later that the way I offered comfort made someone feel worse.  Telling a friend who had a miscarriage that she was young and still would be able to be a mother in the future was dismissive of her grief for her child in that moment even though my intent was to help her reach for peace.  We need to meet people where they are, not where we are comfortable being or where we want them to be.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

...............................

Such family relationships are way too complicated of a situation to issue generic sympathy without it coming off as clueless in some way, missing what actually matters to many of the mothers. 

BYW, fathers should not be neglected in seeking inspiration to support because bluntly when done like this just to mothers, it too often feels to us (mothers with nonmember children) like responsibility or even blame is getting dumped primarily on the mothers or perhaps from a father’s POV (I don’t know this, but have wondered) they feel like no one feels they care as much about their children as the mothers do since such words are either shared to parents together or mothers alone typically.

Btw, I don’t know if many men realize this, but a huge number of women hate Mother’s Day even if their children are all in the Church.  Me personally, it’s like someone who has to be reminded to say “thank you” to me, it is not a spontaneous thought, but an obligation, so how deep of a feeling is it actually if one requires a push to say it?

***most in my experience, I have not actually heard a mother say they were comforted by such expressions of caring even when they felt people were sincerely trying rather than just performing what was expected

The sad reality is that even Heavenly Mother felt the bitter sting of many of her children rejecting her faith.  Mothers do the best they can with limited resources.  Free agency prevails.  It is a universal law.

Our Mother's Day program at my ward was very nice.  Two wonderful talks, one of which brought tears to my eyes.  The primary children sang.

When I pass on to the other side, I expect to see my mother first.  She was by far the most important person in my life.  I miss her so.

[Tony uk]

I just wanted to contribute to this. When I was younger, many years ago, to many. I grew up in an environment of the strong matriarch woman, surrounded by many of them. These women, for me, in the environment I grew up in. Formed the backbone of the family. As years moved on, my mother became terminally ill, and at the end of life, her wish was to come to her home. During her illness, I willingly, without giving it any thoughts, became her carer. I had to stand there at the end, watching her life in this world end. For some time afterwards, I felt guilty for not having said I loved her. It was eventually pointed out to me, that the way I looked after, especially towards the end, she would have known. It is only recently I have come to terms with this. I think the point that I am trying to make is that, by our thoughts and everyday actions, especially in how we do not give it a second thought. Show on a daily basis, our affection and respect for another person. And I would like to say, Mormon Dialogue has been of help to me, during this time of reflection.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The sad reality is that even Heavenly Mother felt the bitter sting of many of her children rejecting her faith.  Mothers do the best they can with limited resources.  Free agency prevails.  It is a universal law

I don’t have a problem with people recognizing the reality of life. It’s the telling mothers how they should feel about it rather than letting them experience it in their own ways that troubles me. 

 It is kind of odd to me that the assumption seems to always be our children are making us suffer when we allow them their freedom of agency to explore life in ways we wouldn’t always choose for them when Heavenly Father and Mother made that choice and described their work in providing these paths to their children as one of glory, not bitterness.  

Does anyone’s ward have similar talks or comments about fathers?  Especially on Father’s Day?

My mother was a wonderful part of my life. I don’t know of any mother who did a better job with her children. She also screwed up big time in some ways.  I also love that she made ways for my dad to be a big part of my life as well as it wasn’t natural to him, yet I can say the same thing about him (both good and bad).  Both were successful enough as parents I cannot say my mother was the most important figure in my life as both parents had great impact on me, the greatest impact being how they interacted with each other, which I think would make both my parents happy.

As far as my daughter rejecting my faith, there is no bitter sting because God let me know I didn’t need to worry about that part of life, my daughter is on the path she needs to be on and it would be rejecting the gift of peace God blessed me with if I felt bitterness or other such feelings about her choice.  

Edited May 12, 2025 by Calm

[JVW]

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No matter what someone might say, there will be someone who is offended- that can't stop us from offering heartfelt thoughts. 

Your response has solidified for me my thoughts that this place is so very toxic. I think I am done with MDDB.

I like your comments, especially when you make people mad.

[ZealouslyStriving]

50 minutes ago, JVW said:

I like your comments, especially when you make people mad.

I do it without even trying. Even when I try to post something nice and "non-partisan" (religiously or politically) there is always someone to feels that my post is so out-of-bounds that it must be confronted. 🤷🏻‍♂️ It gets old after a while- esp. considering I show extreme restraint in not saying things in a way which I am naturally inclined. 

[longview]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I do it without even trying. Even when I try to post something nice and "non-partisan" (religiously or politically) there is always someone to feels that my post is so out-of-bounds that it must be confronted. 🤷🏻‍♂️ It gets old after a while- esp. considering I show extreme restraint in not saying things in a way which I am naturally inclined. 

I think Calm is too "touchy" about some things. With marriage declining drastically and people putting off childbearing 10 or 20 years down the road, candidates for motherhood and fatherhood should be encouraged and celebrated a lot more. We need to do it institutionally, culturally, educationally, civically, and most importantly religiously!

[MustardSeed]

25 minutes ago, longview said:

I think Calm is too "touchy" about some things. With marriage declining drastically and people putting off childbearing 10 or 20 years down the road, candidates for motherhood and fatherhood should be encouraged and celebrated a lot more. We need to do it institutionally, culturally, educationally, civically, and most importantly religiously!

I find Calm to be one of the most level headed and reasonable participants on the board.  ❤️

[Calm]

2 hours ago, longview said:

candidates for motherhood and fatherhood should be encouraged and celebrated a lot more.

Of course.  But it makes more sense to celebrate them how they want to be celebrated, doesn’t it, rather than how we want to celebrate them….especially if our “want” is more out of obligation or programming and double especialky if the way we would choose to celebrate them makes them feel worse rather than better.  Celebration isn’t going to help much if it makes most people feel worse about what they are doing.

Edited May 13, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, longview said:

I think Calm is too "touchy" about some things.

Is touchy the right word if it doesn’t upset me personally (my very devout, atypical mother’s experience with Church was great in teaching me not to take stuff spoken generally personally, not to accept responsibility or guilt because others were telling me I should either intentionally or unintentionally), but I feel protective of the women who have told me personally or in group or larger settings that they do struggle with it?  Their discomfort, unhappiness, and even pain feels unnecessary to me.  The intent of fellowshipping in the Church is not meant to add to each other’s burdens, but to lighten them by sharing.

Plus it doesn’t make me irritable nor do I feel offended when I see people make missteps.  At worse I am rolling my eyes when it’s particularly clueless, but mostly it is frustration because I see good people wanting to help but making mistakes because they need to also take some time to get to know who they want to help before they devote their efforts to avoid making things worse rather than better, which obviously they wouldn’t want to do.

For example, I know my in-laws and those working with them were brokenhearted when they found out donating money and clothing to a Russian orphanage had led to it having major problems because the guy in charge took the donations and sold them and pocketed that money and more and then left, leaving the orphanage in worse shape than it started…which was pretty awful (too much temptation to make a big score apparently, though I would not be surprised if he was skimming before, but he had to keep the orphanage functioning to get anything when it was small takings).  They learned they needed to not give money up front, be very careful about material donations as in starting small and slowly increasing to see how it gets handled, and to be very careful to vet services beforehand while keeping a close eye afterwards.

Secondhand clothing charity destroyed the homegrown textile in Kenya for years because it was cheaper and easier to sell secondhand clothing than to make the fabric themselves and much cheaper to buy.

What needs to happen with material support needs to happen with verbal support.  We need to pay attention to the people who we are intending to support and listen to their actual needs rather than make assumptions based on what we would want and need.

Edited May 13, 2025 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

Another pov: 

1. it is very possible for moms to not feel guilt due to kids leaving the church.  Are we expected to? I hope not.  

2. It is possible to love being a mother and to dislike Mother’s Day for various reasons 

3. Some people enjoy when people say “happy Mother’s Day”.  That’s all I ever want for on Mother’s Day.   Thank you for that here 

4.  I had a client who expressed today unsolicited that she was annoyed all day for being told happy Mother’s Day because she never had kids.  And she hates being reminded she’ll have them when she’s dead.  I think it’s ok that she has those feelings. 

5.  Mother’s Day is complicated for many.  That doesn’t make us ungrateful or uncommitted.  We will persevere.  Thank you for listening - 

 

[Rain]

Call me touchy. I'm touchy because of the years I spent with no children because of my health. Because of the awards given out to the women with the most children. I'm touchy because of what having children did to my body. I'm  touchy because I feel for the women who were never able to have children. Because I was not the best mom. Because the decades it was ground into my soul that so much of how my children turned out is due to my nurturing.  Because my child went off the "path".  Because I'm still doing my "best to love, nurture, and teach their children the ways of righteousness", but because I'm "off the path" some will see me as a failure. 

Yes, some, like me, are too touchy, but I appreciate those who love me, hug me and listen to me because in this touchiness is pain.

[Chum]

I took a Mother's day cupcake and do not regret it. I did all of the mother stuff all of the time for all of the years. Except breast feeding. Unless she pumped then sorta. I earned a cupcake.

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

 But it makes more sense to celebrate them how they want to be celebrated, doesn’t it, rather than how we want to celebrate them

This is part of your problem- you seem think that your opinion is the one opinion that represents the whole of women- you believe there is a collective "they".

Can you really not conceive that some women may not see things the way that you do?

[Calm]

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

This is part of your problem- you seem think that your opinion is the one opinion that represents the whole of women- you believe there is a collective "they".

Can you really not conceive that some women may not see things the way that you do?

Did you read my posts completely through?  I really think you are bringing in a ton of baggage to it and reading way too much into it if this is what you think because I never said my opinion represent all women.  Plus the most important point of my comments has always been intended to address women as the individuals that they are and ask them how they want to be celebrated (they is both singular and plural here) or supported.

Women are not a one size approach fits all or even two sizes, one for mothers whose kids are all in the Church and the mothers who have kids out of it.  That is why those who really want to be supportive need to take the extra step of talking to women personally rather than just talking at them.

Edited May 14, 2025 by Calm

[JVW]

The sentiment expressed in this post was roughly "Happy Mother's Day! If you feel inadequate as a mom please remember that you're not, and that Jesus is looking out for you and your children!"

The appropriate response would be something like, "Thank you, you too! I hope that God really does love our children as much as He claims to in the scriptures" or "I never was a Mother and it sucks, but thank you for sharing such a sweet sentiment amidst a life of gray, struggling to keep ourselves about water." Or any flavor of that.

Instead the response was like 3 pages of text about nuance, and why women don't like Mother's day, and how inconsiderate someone is being by wishing a happy Mother's day willy nilly. How thoughtless of them!

I love this board for the nuance, but this was not a post trying to dissect the impact of post-modernism on motherhood and the U.S. culture around mother's day. Or how the church sucks at treating women as equals. It was just a post expressing hope and gratitude and now it's been ground into the dirt.

I was immediately reminded of the quote attributed to Brigham Young, "He who takes offense when offense was not intended is a fool..." Dude was not intending to cause offense in any way, shape, or form. I am not intending to cause offense either, but if I do I don't really care cause the comments in this thread are ridiculous.

For the record, I don't like mother's day. One year my wife cried tears of sorrow when a speaker over the pulpit said, "Us women get to be mother's forever." She was not happy to consider that. And my mother just died last December, so it's kind of been rough for me this year. But I think the church giving out chocolates and cupcakes is sweet, and I think people generally try to be sweet on mother's day, and I think OP was being very sweet wishing everyone a happy mother's day.

ETA: Also, for the record, I like Calm, and I like Rain, and I like MustardSeed. Anytime I see that they've posted a response to something my typical reaction is excitement at reading what they wrote.

Edited May 13, 2025 by JVW

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

ETA: Also, for the record, I like Calm, and I like Rain, and I like MustardSeed. Anytime I see that they've posted a response to something my typical reaction is excitement at reading what they wrote.

Thank you. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

The sentiment expressed in this post was roughly "Happy Mother's Day! If you feel inadequate as a mom please remember that you're not, and that Jesus is looking out for you and your children!"

The appropriate response would be something like, "Thank you, you too! I hope that God really does love our children as much as He claims to in the scriptures" or "I never was a Mother and it sucks, but thank you for sharing such a sweet sentiment amidst a life of gray, struggling to keep ourselves about water." Or any flavor of that.

Instead the response was like 3 pages of text about nuance, and why women don't like Mother's day, and how inconsiderate someone is being by wishing a happy Mother's day willy nilly. How thoughtless of them!

I love this board for the nuance, but this was not a post trying to dissect the impact of post-modernism on motherhood and the U.S. culture around mother's day. Or how the church sucks at treating women as equals. It was just a post expressing hope and gratitude and now it's been ground into the dirt.

I was immediately reminded of the quote attributed to Brigham Young, "He who takes offense when offense was not intended is a fool..." Dude was not intending to cause offense in any way, shape, or form. I am not intending to cause offense either, but if I do I don't really care cause the comments in this thread are ridiculous.

For the record, I don't like mother's day. One year my wife cried tears of sorrow when a speaker over the pulpit said, "Us women get to be mother's forever." She was not happy to consider that. And my mother just died last December, so it's kind of been rough for me this year. But I think the church giving out chocolates and cupcakes is sweet, and I think people generally try to be sweet on mother's day, and I think OP was being very sweet wishing everyone a happy mother's day.

ETA: Also, for the record, I like Calm, and I like Rain, and I like MustardSeed. Anytime I see that they've posted a response to something my typical reaction is excitement at reading what they wrote.

🙏🏻Thank you.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, JVW said:

The sentiment expressed in this post was roughly "Happy Mother's Day! If you feel inadequate as a mom please remember that you're not, and that Jesus is looking out for you and your children!"

The appropriate response would be something like, "Thank you, you too! I hope that God really does love our children as much as He claims to in the scriptures" or "I never was a Mother and it sucks, but thank you for sharing such a sweet sentiment amidst a life of gray, struggling to keep ourselves about water." Or any flavor of that.

Instead the response was like 3 pages of text about nuance, and why women don't like Mother's day, and how inconsiderate someone is being by wishing a happy Mother's day willy nilly. How thoughtless of them!

I love this board for the nuance, but this was not a post trying to dissect the impact of post-modernism on motherhood and the U.S. culture around mother's day. Or how the church sucks at treating women as equals. It was just a post expressing hope and gratitude and now it's been ground into the dirt.

I was immediately reminded of the quote attributed to Brigham Young, "He who takes offense when offense was not intended is a fool..." Dude was not intending to cause offense in any way, shape, or form. I am not intending to cause offense either, but if I do I don't really care cause the comments in this thread are ridiculous.

For the record, I don't like mother's day. One year my wife cried tears of sorrow when a speaker over the pulpit said, "Us women get to be mother's forever." She was not happy to consider that. And my mother just died last December, so it's kind of been rough for me this year. But I think the church giving out chocolates and cupcakes is sweet, and I think people generally try to be sweet on mother's day, and I think OP was being very sweet wishing everyone a happy mother's day.

ETA: Also, for the record, I like Calm, and I like Rain, and I like MustardSeed. Anytime I see that they've posted a response to something my typical reaction is excitement at reading what they wrote.

I was only responding to the idea of being touchy about Mother's Day.  I was really "touchy" about the OP, but chose not to respond to it because I saw he was trying.  I would not have responded as calm did, but I appreciated that she was recognizing women like me who may have struggled with the OP.   

It was just when the "touchy" idea came up that I spoke up. I saw calm as speaking up for women like me, so when longview called her touchy, I felt he was throwing that at me too.  Clearly, I was touchy at the time lol 🤣.  So I spoke up about why women like me are hurting, hoping that others would get some understanding.  I do find it interesting that I was looking for someone to mourn with me, and then I get reprimanded for taking offence though I recognize there is a time and place and best way about communicating and this wasn't it.

I like you too.  There are things we very much disagree on, but you are always willing to see it from all sides.  

Edited May 13, 2025 by Rain

[Chum]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

The sentiment expressed in this post was roughly "Happy Mother's Day! If you feel inadequate as a mom please remember that you're not, and that Jesus is looking out for you and your children!"

The appropriate response would be something like, "Thank you, you too! I hope that God really does love our children as much as He claims to in the scriptures" or "I never was a Mother and it sucks, but thank you for sharing such a sweet sentiment amidst a life of gray, struggling to keep ourselves about water." Or any flavor of that.

It is my experience that inappropriateness is marked by a lack of concern for the wellbeing of others. In contrast, Calm's reactions flowed from concern that she has for everyday mothers. 

A response that simply falls outside of one's expectations should still be appropriate. It may be personally disappointing, however. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

how inconsiderate someone is being by wishing a happy Mother's day willy nilly.

No, that was not what my post and others were about.  In the first post I said this specific message (mothers naturally feel sorrow, bitterness, hopelessness, a failure if their children are nonbelievers) is not what many needed to hear (which implies some could benefit from hearing it) and it’s better to share this type of message in a personal setting where you know the needs of the individual instead of just throwing it out to the general public where there will be included many who do not feel supported by those comments.

If someone posted a comment of “Happy Mother’s Day, I hope all mothers everywhere are having a great day, no matter their circumstances”, I would not have said that was a message that told mothers how they should feel about their relationship with their children, the Church or anything else or needed to be reserved for a more personal setting.

Sincere questions:

What do you believe should be offered to those mothers who walk away from feeling worse, not better in this case even though such was not intended in any way?  

How would you handle it if you realized what you said hit a sore spot for a mother you had hoped to feel better by your comment?

Btw, I don’t mind criticism, I think feedback is essential to personal improvement and especially in relationships and it’s one of the reasons I have loved my years on the board because feedback is something I can take my time and go back over where it’s harder offline (both because of the lack and one’s memory of what was offered is never as accurate as when it’s in writing), but that feedback needs to focus on what was actually said and done to be useful. 

Otherwise, it’s just dismissive and a waste of everyone’s time, imo.

Edited May 13, 2025 by Calm