Happy Mother's Day!!

[Chum]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

Instead the response was like 3 pages of text about nuance, and why women don't like Mother's day, and how inconsiderate someone is being by wishing a happy Mother's day willy nilly. How thoughtless of them!

I love this board for the nuance, but this was not a post trying to dissect the impact of post-modernism on motherhood and the U.S. culture around mother's day. Or how the church sucks at treating women as equals.

One father's day, I commented in EQ on the differences between talks (discussions, etc) given on Mother's day vs those on Father's day. Mother's day was reliably a celebration of mothers and filled with testimonies of how mothers had bettered lives. All to the good. 

Father's day tended to be talks about how fathers can improve followed by a quorum where the brethren shared stories of how they fell short.  It sort of matched the tone of priesthood sessions back in that time so maybe that was a factor.  Regardless, I am a guy with a guy's ego and this wasn't working for me. My shortcomings didn't need recognition or recounting. We were well acquainted.

My observations seemed to be respectfully received.  The next year and thereafter, Father's day fairly well mirrored Mother's day. 

I believe Father's day changed (at least in part) because I mattered and was heard. 

Edited May 13, 2025 by Chum

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

believe Father's day changed (at least in part) because I mattered and was heard. 

I love this.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 5/12/2025 at 7:50 AM, Calm said:

..............................

 It is kind of odd to me that the assumption seems to always be our children are making us suffer when we allow them their freedom of agency to explore life in ways we wouldn’t always choose for them when Heavenly Father and Mother made that choice and described their work in providing these paths to their children as one of glory, not bitterness.  

........................ 

Terryl Givens likes to talk about the God who weeps (Moses 7:28), and he even wrote a book about it.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, JVW said:

ETA: Also, for the record, I like Calm, and I like Rain, and I like MustardSeed. Anytime I see that they've posted a response to something my typical reaction is excitement at reading what they wrote.

I very much appreciate that you like me and are interested in what I write.  Typically I would just stop here, but because I am sending a particular message in this thread I am going to add something.

What would make me feel even more appreciated even if constructive criticism was shared would be signs that my comments here were accurately understood, like not presenting them as criticizing someone for simply wishing someone a happy Mother’s Day when that was not my criticism.

PS:  I have said similar things in the past to my Dad, who I dearly love and appreciate, including for his generous support over the years of my life as I rate efforts in understanding as high as efforts in compassion; in fact I don’t believe one can be truly compassionate without at least attempting to understand another and by that I mean putting significant time and effort and sacrifice into the attempt.  Unfortunately Dad did not put a lot of effort into understanding that I could see and I think there were a lot of missed opportunities for greater happiness in his own lives and in the lives of those he desired to help because he gave what he thought people needed rather than what they really needed.  Maybe he did make a significant effort, but was just uncomfortable talking about it.  He wasn’t terribly successful with understanding at least a couple of his kids from the feedback I have gotten.  My older sister, otoh, feels quite differently.

Edited May 14, 2025 by Calm

[JVW]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

What do you believe should be offered to those mothers who walk away from feeling worse, not better in this case even though such was not intended in any way?

Nothing should be offered to those mothers. He was trying to be thoughtful and loving, he did nothing wrong, he committed no sin, and he did the best he could.

18 hours ago, Calm said:

How would you handle it if you realized what you said hit a sore spot for a mother you had hoped to feel better by your comment?

Once upon a time I learned that my sister's (Vee) partner was recovering from spine surgery. I felt so much compassion because I had a broken neck once and was disabled for the better part of a year. I've also been a caretaker and my sister was not very capable at living life at the time, so I felt compassion for her. So I offered to bring them food, some freezer meals. Vee agreed to the idea. So I spent a day making some delicious soup, portioning it out, and making some other things. Then I spoke to another sibling (Elle) and asked if they wanted to pitch in. They said yes, and they made some chicken enchiladas and froze them. Elle lived a few hours away, so I met up with her at a halfway point to pick up the enchiladas.

The next day I contact Vee and at first we had planned to meet up at a park. But she was so depressed when I called that she didn't want to leave the house. So I said I'll drop them off on the front porch of your apartment complex and text you after they've been dropped off. That way you won't have to see me, make yourself presentable in any way, or have to concern yourself with entertaining or making conversation with me. I drove an hour to her place, and set the food on a chair in front of the main entrance (it had a locked door so I couldn't take it inside). The building manager was having a smoke and I chatted with her briefly and told her that I was leaving the food for Vee. She said she would make sure that Vee got the food. I then texted Vee and said I'll be at the gas station across the street for the next 10 minutes if you have any questions or concerns, but the food is here. I received no response and didn't hear from her for the rest of the day.

The next morning I wake up to a text from her and her partner. It was a lengthy text which basically said that I'm the devil, that I took advantage of Elle by forcing her to make food, that they never got the food and how dare I play a prank on them, that every time I've tried to help them in the past I was only causing pain and misery for them, and that they would be happier and better off if they never knew me. I am telling you a true story, I have screenshots of the texts that were sent and my siblings can corroborate the story, I promise that I'm not exaggerating here.

About 12 hours later I get another text saying that they got the food and that the building manager had put it in the communal fridge until she could get in touch with them. I never received an apology and was baffled at the amount of drama that was caused by my act of pure, selfless, loving service.

So getting back to your question, "How would you handle it if you realized what you said hit a sore spot for a mother you had hoped to feel better by your comment?" Well, in this case with Vee, I called her later and told her, "I feel like any time I try to help you I'm only hurting you, so I won't make effort to help you anymore. If you ever want or need anything please reach out to me. I love you." That conversation with her was so painful for me that I was physically ill for two weeks afterwards.

Now, perhaps you may think, or maybe others could view the situation and think that I should have apologized for what I did. Because I missed some angle that, in retrospect, was incredibly obvious and I should graciously accept her feedback to improve how I express my sincere love in the future. That I should apologize because I hurt her feelings.

I'm sorry, but her feelings are not my responsibility and in no world could I have ever predicted that I would be viewed as poisonous in that situation. Even if I knew that she was going to be hurt by my act of service, I'd still have done it. What I did was sweet and loving and as accommodating as I could possibly be. I was not in the wrong in that situation.

And I don't think that OP is in the wrong here either. And his response was basically the same as mine, "I didn't intend to cause pain, it will probably be better if I don't comment here anymore." Dude is getting feedback on something in which no feedback is necessary. "Thanks for being nice but next time, please be nicer because you were actually being a jerk." Whether or not that's the sentiment you expressed, that's just the tone that's present in this thread as far as I see it, and I'm thinking it's how he's interpreting it too based on his responses.

[JVW]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

I very much appreciate that you like me and are interested in what I write.  Typically I would just stop here, but because I am sending a particular message in this thread I am going to add something.

What would make me feel even more appreciated even if constructive criticism was shared would be signs that my comments here were accurately understood, like not presenting them as criticizing someone for simply wishing someone a happy Mother’s Day when that was not my criticism.

PS:  I have said similar things in the past to my Dad, who I dearly love and appreciate, including for his generous support over the years of my life as I rate efforts in understanding as high as efforts in compassion; in fact I don’t believe one can be truly compassionate without at least attempting to understand another and by that I mean putting significant time and effort and sacrifice into the attempt.  Unfortunately Dad did not put a lot of effort into understanding that I could see and I think there were a lot of missed opportunities for greater happiness in his own lives and in the lives of those he desired to help because he gave what he thought people needed rather than what they really needed.  Maybe he did make a significant effort, but was just uncomfortable talking about it.  He wasn’t terribly successful with understanding at least a couple of his kids from the feedback I have gotten.  My older sister, otoh, feels quite differently.

I think your comments are valid, well thought out, respectful, gentle, and worth considering. In other words, your comments meet the "Calm" standard of posting. I just wish they were in a thread that was about what's wrong with mother's day and women's relationship with the church and that sort of thing. This thread is literally entitled "Happy Mother's Day!!". I wasn't going to comment on the thread at all because I'm not particularly interested in mother's day (I had a terrible relationship with my own) and I'm not really interested in the topic being discussed in this thread. But after dude said he was done with the board I figured it'd be nice for him to know at least one person has his back before he vanishes into the aether of the internet possibly never to be heard from again.

[Rain]

I'm really having a rough time with this post that I'm writing. This all hit on lots of my sensitive buttons at one time, but I absolutely like to believe in the goodness in others and, believe it or not, usually see others in a good light and that if there are problems it is usually a communication problem.  I didn't show that benefit of the doubt to @ZealouslyStriving in this thread and for that I apologize.  I let my sensitivities take precedence over relationships and for that I was wrong. I'm sorry that I didn't just ignore this thread.

Edited May 14, 2025 by Rain

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

Nothing should be offered to those mothers

I am speaking in general.  Should they be ignored, should they be included by others at other times or should we just not worry about it and let people say whatever they want without regard to who is listening? (Not rhetorical, sincere question.

Quote

 

 

So getting back to your question, "How would you handle it if you realized what you said hit a sore spot for a mother you had hoped to feel better by your comment?" Well, in this case with Vee, I called her later and told her, "I feel like any time I try to help you I'm only hurting you, so I won't make effort to help you anymore. If you ever want or need anything please reach out to me. I love you." That conversation with her was so painful for me that I was physically ill for two weeks afterwards.

First off I think you did a really good thing, went the extra mile and having a relative I have who I can do exactly what they tell me to do and it can still upset them, I understand feeling helpless/hopeless on getting stuff right, but again I am curious…I am nosy.  I like learning how people handle relationships because I can always learn even if it’s a problematic situation.

Had you asked her for suggestions on what to cook and how to best deliver it beforehand? 

 I know with depression, being asked to make decisions can be overwhelming and I have told my husband at times he just needs to handle it himself…which means it’s not always how I want it.  I don’t think I have ever been upset in those cases, but my memory gets messed up when depressed so maybe I have.  These days I ask for what they want first, but offer to make the decision if too much.

You probably know this already, but just in case.  Depression (and anxiety) is an insidious disease because it prevents us from reaching out and getting the help we need.  The only reason I ever got to a therapist was because I was willing to do it for my daughter and I just piggybacked on her appointment. Even now when depression is pretty controlled the idea of trying to find one that works for me is so overwhelming I just can’t face it.  This time I don’t want to share one with my daughter and yet another doctor’s appointment on my calendar, I just can’t do it.  It is about the stupidest, self defeating behaviour and yet extremely common for those with depression.  It is actually painful to try and think about adding to the list of have to that already feels miles long.

All this to say, chances are even if your sister wants to and needs to, she likely won’t reach out because she is not capable of doing so….though she might be a rare exception.  If she isn’t an exception…. It’s not about being lazy or having enough grit as there are plenty of things she is probably gritting herself through if she is like most with depression I know.  It is something different.  It’s about one’s mind not allowing one to think certain ways.  It is absolutely insane looking at myself knowing it is irrational and yet I somethings just can’t be done.

Long winded…if you actually do want to keep in touch with her, it probably needs to come from your side.  Not sure what you should do because it’s very individual.  If you have a relationship with her partner, perhaps you could ask them for suggestions on how to keep the lines truly open with minimal pressure for all involved.

And to be honest, it may not be right for you to put the effort in as you have your own struggles in life and may have your own limits.  No one should ever feel guilty for saying no if it’s necessary for oneself or for someone you are caring for (my social life is very limited because my energy needs to be saved for myself and my daughter).  I just think it can be unfortunate to shutdown certain opportunities if there is a different way we can actually make it work.

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, JVW said:

Nothing should be offered to those mothers. He was trying to be thoughtful and loving, he did nothing wrong, he committed no sin, and he did the best he could.

Once upon a time I learned that my sister's (Vee) partner was recovering from spine surgery. I felt so much compassion because I had a broken neck once and was disabled for the better part of a year. I've also been a caretaker and my sister was not very capable at living life at the time, so I felt compassion for her. So I offered to bring them food, some freezer meals. Vee agreed to the idea. So I spent a day making some delicious soup, portioning it out, and making some other things. Then I spoke to another sibling (Elle) and asked if they wanted to pitch in. They said yes, and they made some chicken enchiladas and froze them. Elle lived a few hours away, so I met up with her at a halfway point to pick up the enchiladas.

The next day I contact Vee and at first we had planned to meet up at a park. But she was so depressed when I called that she didn't want to leave the house. So I said I'll drop them off on the front porch of your apartment complex and text you after they've been dropped off. That way you won't have to see me, make yourself presentable in any way, or have to concern yourself with entertaining or making conversation with me. I drove an hour to her place, and set the food on a chair in front of the main entrance (it had a locked door so I couldn't take it inside). The building manager was having a smoke and I chatted with her briefly and told her that I was leaving the food for Vee. She said she would make sure that Vee got the food. I then texted Vee and said I'll be at the gas station across the street for the next 10 minutes if you have any questions or concerns, but the food is here. I received no response and didn't hear from her for the rest of the day.

The next morning I wake up to a text from her and her partner. It was a lengthy text which basically said that I'm the devil, that I took advantage of Elle by forcing her to make food, that they never got the food and how dare I play a prank on them, that every time I've tried to help them in the past I was only causing pain and misery for them, and that they would be happier and better off if they never knew me. I am telling you a true story, I have screenshots of the texts that were sent and my siblings can corroborate the story, I promise that I'm not exaggerating here.

About 12 hours later I get another text saying that they got the food and that the building manager had put it in the communal fridge until she could get in touch with them. I never received an apology and was baffled at the amount of drama that was caused by my act of pure, selfless, loving service.

So getting back to your question, "How would you handle it if you realized what you said hit a sore spot for a mother you had hoped to feel better by your comment?" Well, in this case with Vee, I called her later and told her, "I feel like any time I try to help you I'm only hurting you, so I won't make effort to help you anymore. If you ever want or need anything please reach out to me. I love you." That conversation with her was so painful for me that I was physically ill for two weeks afterwards.

Now, perhaps you may think, or maybe others could view the situation and think that I should have apologized for what I did. Because I missed some angle that, in retrospect, was incredibly obvious and I should graciously accept her feedback to improve how I express my sincere love in the future. That I should apologize because I hurt her feelings.

I'm sorry, but her feelings are not my responsibility and in no world could I have ever predicted that I would be viewed as poisonous in that situation. Even if I knew that she was going to be hurt by my act of service, I'd still have done it. What I did was sweet and loving and as accommodating as I could possibly be. I was not in the wrong in that situation.

And I don't think that OP is in the wrong here either. And his response was basically the same as mine, "I didn't intend to cause pain, it will probably be better if I don't comment here anymore." Dude is getting feedback on something in which no feedback is necessary. "Thanks for being nice but next time, please be nicer because you were actually being a jerk." Whether or not that's the sentiment you expressed, that's just the tone that's present in this thread as far as I see it, and I'm thinking it's how he's interpreting it too based on his responses.

It's hard to mourn with those who mourn for reasons that we don't understand or agree with.   I say that with all sincerity.  I can mourn with those whose feelings make sense to me, but when their feelings don't make sense or seem valid, it's a real struggle.  

Other people's feelings aren't our responsibility, but all baptized saints do have that responsibility to mourn with people, even when we don't necessarily agree with them.  I'm pretty bad at it though.  It's one of those weaknesses that I hope can eventually be made into a strength.

In this thread it seems like Calm jump to the defense of those women who were hurt by the original post.  It seems like you jumped to the defense of the original poster.  Both of your reactions were out of love and concern, for feelings and for fairness in judgment in my opinion.

[JVW]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

I am speaking in general.  Should they be ignored,

Nobody is ignored whether I ignore them or not. Everyone has their own support system. In some cases, I will want to give attention to those who are hurt, and in other cases it's on other people to help them heal. I'm not God and I don't have time, energy, or resources to tend to every broken heart.

19 hours ago, Calm said:

should they be included by others at other times or should we just not worry about it

Don't worry about it... As long as I care and am engaged and trying to be open and honest I think everything will sort itself out. I'm not a big Jordan Peterson fan but there was something I heard him say once that I thought was very profound. The sentiment was roughly "God spoke things into being according to Genesis. At the end of each day He said, 'it is good' and at the end of the last day He said, 'it is very good'. Assuming that God is truth and can only speak the truth, then we can infer that the result of speaking the truth is always good, even if it doesn't seem so at the time. ... I agree with this sentiment, it doesn't mean that I live according to this ideal though.

In the case of this thread, there are people supporting each other from a variety of different angles in their own spheres and it's really beautiful to see, but I'm not supporting everyone, and I don't care about everyone's feelings, but it's working out ok I think so far.

19 hours ago, Calm said:

and let people say whatever they want without regard to who is listening? (Not rhetorical, sincere question.

If everybody truly spoke according to how they felt and what they thought without mincing words or worrying about being a part of polite society I think that the world would be better off for it. I think people would be more loving and more emotionally connected, and less isolated. Contextually, my background is as a person who felt terrified to express myself. Early on in my mission (I was 26 at the time) when we had to do companionship inventory if I so much as thought about saying what was really on my mind and bothering me I would get a panic attack. I've had to practice a lot on self-expression, and it definitely is an art. But my goal is to err on the side of being too rude than too kind, because I view rudeness as saying something that someone else doesn't want to hear, which to me translates to "speaking the truth as I see it", which is incredibly difficult. Even when clicking open this thread today I was getting tense and expecting to be lashed out at in response to what I've said so far, cause I don't think I've been very nice or agreeable in this thread.

19 hours ago, Calm said:

First off I think you did a really good thing, went the extra mile and having a relative I have who I can do exactly what they tell me to do and it can still upset them, I understand feeling helpless/hopeless on getting stuff right, but again I am curious…I am nosy.  I like learning how people handle relationships because I can always learn even if it’s a problematic situation.

Had you asked her for suggestions on what to cook and how to best deliver it beforehand?

I asked the standard "any allergies that I should be aware of"? I don't recall if I communicated what was made. I do remember the part where we switched locations and delivery options was me texting while I was driving down there because she was having last minute concerns with her mental health. I tried to be as communicative as possible.

19 hours ago, Calm said:

 I know with depression, being asked to make decisions can be overwhelming and I have told my husband at times he just needs to handle it himself…which means it’s not always how I want it.  I don’t think I have ever been upset in those cases, but my memory gets messed up when depressed so maybe I have.  These days I ask for what they want first, but offer to make the decision if too much.

You probably know this already, but just in case.  Depression (and anxiety) is an insidious disease because it prevents us from reaching out and getting the help we need.  The only reason I ever got to a therapist was because I was willing to do it for my daughter and I just piggybacked on her appointment. Even now when depression is pretty controlled the idea of trying to find one that works for me is so overwhelming I just can’t face it.  This time I don’t want to share one with my daughter and yet another doctor’s appointment on my calendar, I just can’t do it.  It is about the stupidest, self defeating behaviour and yet extremely common for those with depression.  It is actually painful to try and think about adding to the list of have to that already feels miles long.

All this to say, chances are even if your sister wants to and needs to, she likely won’t reach out because she is not capable of doing so….though she might be a rare exception.  If she isn’t an exception…. It’s not about being lazy or having enough grit as there are plenty of things she is probably gritting herself through if she is like most with depression I know.  It is something different.  It’s about one’s mind not allowing one to think certain ways.  It is absolutely insane looking at myself knowing it is irrational and yet I somethings just can’t be done.

Long winded…if you actually do want to keep in touch with her, it probably needs to come from your side.  Not sure what you should do because it’s very individual.  If you have a relationship with her partner, perhaps you could ask them for suggestions on how to keep the lines truly open with minimal pressure for all involved.

And to be honest, it may not be right for you to put the effort in as you have your own struggles in life and may have your own limits.  No one should ever feel guilty for saying no if it’s necessary for oneself or for someone you are caring for (my social life is very limited because my energy needs to be saved for myself and my daughter).  I just think it can be unfortunate to shutdown certain opportunities if there is a different way we can actually make it work.

I understand what you're saying. We have since reconnected, but she still seems to feel hurt by me regardless of the nature of our interaction.I had no idea, no inkling of a whisper of a thought, that anyone would ever react that way to getting free, tlc, heartfelt, gentle homemade meals. I could have never predicted it, and I don't know that if I went back in time I could have changed the reaction if I altered anything. That's completely out of my hands. So the question for you is, should I have apologized for any reason in that situation, or should I have been given feedback in any way? Or is the onus on the offended to introspect in order to determine why they felt hurt, how much of that hurt is the fault of the one who communicated to them, and how can they heal from their pain? It's definitely a grey area, but I feel like modern culture in the States is that the onus is on the actor, not the receiver, to have responsibility for the feelings of the receiver. And I think that's kind of weird.