Perspectives Re: Latter-day Saints and Nazis

[manol]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

For me, "like unto" expresses accommodation.... These are the semantics I use.

For me, the two great commandments are like looking at the exact same thing from two slightly different angles.

Let me illustrate: Close your left eye and look at something on your desk. You see a two-dimensional scene. Keep looking and open your left eye while closing your right. You see the same two-dimensional scene but from a slightly different angle. Cycle back and forth a few times. 

Now open both eyes, and suddenly you can see the third dimension. You now have depth perception.  You now have a more correct perception.  No "accommodation" needed. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by manol

[Okrahomer]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I learned a lot from reading these two articles and the sites that it linked to https://bhroberts.org/projects/gestapo & https://mormonr.org/qnas/aA2rfb/latter_day_saints_and_nazi_germany were really fun to look through. I think I may be related to Roy E. Babbel but I'd have to check my family tree.

Thank you for posting these links.  Having served a mission to Northern Germany (yes: “back when dinosaurs ruled the earth”), I have known Saints who lived through this time.  It was considered very impolite to ask, but I am not aware that any of these dear folk were ever members of the Nazi party.  I guess I take some solace in the fact that (according to your links) while about 10% of the general population were members of the party, only about 5% of the LDS population was.  From what I have heard, most LDS members in Germany remained ambivalent toward the Third Reich.  

I knew a sister In Germany who had been a concert pianist before the war — she had to dig her husband out of the rubble with her bare hands following an American air raid over Hamburg.  She never played the piano again.  From what I knew about her, she was definitely never a Nazi.

There was an Elder Babbel in my mission — a great fellow and a fine missionary.  Perhaps you are also related to him.

FYI: There was a film about the open secret within post-war German society, that some people in high positions had a Nazi-past.  The film is called “The Nasty Girl”.   You might find it interesting.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Another thing that comes to mind is how the church responded to Nazi Germany, and how it interplays with the goverment today.

I've wrestled a lot with decisions the church has made in response to various government policies historically and currently. There are a lot of different ways the church can choose to respond, and it could be justified in responding any way it wants using scripture. A really passive response could be justified with "turn the other cheek". A really aggressive response using a militia could be justified with literally the entire Book of Mormon.

In Mosiah 24 Amulon rules over the people of Alma and they are threatened with death from their task masters if they utter a prayer, so they keep that law and pray in their hearts. They didn't fight or resist their oppressors, and God supported them so that they couldn't feel the weight of the burdens they carried.

In Alma 46 Moroni threatens to put to death any people who support the oppressive government, and he follows through with it. And here is how he is regarded:

There is one difference between these two stories. In one, the people are already enslaved, like the children of Israel before Moses. In the other, the people are not yet enslaved but are resisting an oppressive government in war. So the contexts are different. I wonder how that context applies to the church and the saints during Nazi Germany era?

There have been numerous prophecies about how the church will never fall again. That it's here to stay until the Second Coming of the Anointed One. In my mind, that means that church leaders are at liberty to respond in whatever manner they deem most fit and that God will support them in their choices. So I am confused, for example, by the choice the church made to close all of the temples during the Covid years. We are taught that in the temple is basically the fulfillment of the purpose of why God created everything. So why would God direct His prophets to acquiesce to an oppressive government and pause the fulfillment of the entire purpose for our existence on Earth?

What makes you think they were acquiessing to oppresive government and weren't keeping in mind the lives of the saints and those they come in contact with and the missions those people needed still to fulfill?

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Why during Nazi Germany times did the church not respond more aggressively to Hitler's oppressive rule? Why didn't they tell their members to resist?

On the other hand, I do see them fighting for religious liberty in court, so it's not as if they aren't doing anything. I also understand the importance of maintaining political neutrality, but I guarantee that captain Moroni wasn't politically neutral when he saw oppression. I probably just don't have the full picture. I'm not a researcher into all of the ways the church interacts with various governments around the world, they may be doing much more to resist oppression than I'm giving them credit for. And in the next few decades they may step up to the plate even more as oppression from government becomes ever more commonplace and standard in governments here and around the world.

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JVW said:

I do have a comment coming but I just wanted to quickly say I hope this thread doesn't go the politics route and get closed.

We could keep it focused on how scripture teaches us to stand up and reject all interaction with the bad guys just like Reiss wishes the Church had….especially no missionary work or good deeds done for the oppressors or the collaborators (sarcasm if anyone misses this).

Edited November 13, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

I might but I believe the bishop is like-minded so not sure how seriously he would take it. 

Hopefully he would take it seriously, but if not then this seems like a time when it's appropriate to involve the Stake president.  Politics need to stay out of church.

[bluebell]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

Imagining this being done by men I have known, it sounds like typical irrepressible missionary behaviour hoping to soften hearts.  I have had family and friends speak of how they went among Mafia or gang members because someone was interested even though there wasn’t much chance of conversion.

And they are also delighted to share their knowledge of English to Russians, Chinese, Canadian immigrants, immigrants to Utah…

It appears Reiss thinks a good Christian should pick and choose who is worthy of conversion.  Only the good guys deserve the gospel.

Seems to me like the bad guys need the gospel as much or more than the good ones.

Ammon and his brothers went among the Lamanites and even protected the sheep of the Lamanite king who had quite likely participated in wars against Ammon’s own people.  Such missionary behaviour has a long history in our Church.

Jesus was condemned by his own people for allowing various bad guys to be his followers and even had the nerve to heal a Roman, one of the oppressor of the Jews.  Maybe she grew up to treat her Jewish servants like dogs, all because Jesus was willing to save her life.  Then there was the Jewish tax men who made livings off of oppressing their own people for the Romans.  How dare Jesus reach out to them to become his disciples.

The church did the same thing in Australia as well.  The missionaries taught the Australian Olympic team how to play basketball, and that turned the tide on the way the church was viewed in that country from what I can tell.  There's a movie about it that's pretty good.

It wasn't a german-only thing.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The church did the same thing in Australia as well.  The missionaries taught the Australian Olympic team how to play basketball, and that turned the tide on the way the church was viewed in that country from what I can tell.  There's a movie about it that's pretty good.

It wasn't a german-only thing.

Nice…

https://www.deseret.com/2016/10/6/20597715/the-spirit-of-the-mormon-yankees-basketball-team-is-portrayed-in-new-movie-spirit-of-the-game/

[Calm]

Also

https://news-au.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/story-of-the-mormon-yankees-basketball-team-told-in-new-movie

https://universe.byu.edu/2016/10/06/spirit-of-the-game-tells-mormon-yankees-inspring-story/
 

Mormon missionaries playing basketball…what a novel idea!

Apparently there is a rest of the story with the above video…

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/watch-two-mormon-missionaries-dominate-a-pickup-basketball-game-in-south-dallas-7103600

Edited November 13, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

And not just the guys…

 

[Okrahomer]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

And not just the guys

Wow!  She’s good!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, manol said:

For me, the two great commandments are like looking at the exact same thing from two slightly different angles.

Let me illustrate: Close your left eye and look at something on your desk. You see a two-dimensional scene. Keep looking and open your left eye while closing your right. You see the same two-dimensional scene but from a slightly different angle. Cycle back and forth a few times. 

Now open both eyes, and suddenly you can see the third dimension. You now have depth perception.  You now have a more correct perception.  No "accommodation" needed. 

First, I would point out that 3-D vision is the accommodation created by coordinating the two-dimensional views, especially when intentional.

Looking at it another way, the two commandments are also exactly the same thing from a distant-enough view, much as Earth becomes a pale blue-white disk when viewed from Venus. When intentional, this rather represents and extraordinarily high degree of accommodation for those who prefer to deal with Earth without having to experience all that atmosphere, land, water, inhabitants, time zones, etc. Someone else can clean up that mess!

No bridge is needed without recognizing a need for connection. But I think God is closer to us than that, and draws us in from where we are to where He is by highlighting and bridging the differences (Him, us, our neighbor – 3 things in 2 commandments, achieving one end, a "3D" experience). This coming from a Guy who already experienced all that humanity is, and still prefers to accommodate us on a granular, individual and personal level!

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Wow!  She’s good!

Just don’t ever ask me to demonstrate my basketball skills, lol

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

Thank you for posting these links.  Having served a mission to Northern Germany (yes: “back when dinosaurs ruled the earth”), I have known Saints who lived through this time.  It was considered very impolite to ask, but I am not aware that any of these dear folk were ever members of the Nazi party.  I guess I take some solace in the fact that (according to your links) while about 10% of the general population were members of the party, only about 5% of the LDS population was.  From what I have heard, most LDS members in Germany remained ambivalent toward the Third Reich.  

I knew a sister In Germany who had been a concert pianist before the war — she had to dig her husband out of the rubble with her bare hands following an American air raid over Hamburg.  She never played the piano again.  From what I knew about her, she was definitely never a Nazi.

There was an Elder Babbel in my mission — a great fellow and a fine missionary.  Perhaps you are also related to him.

FYI: There was a film about the open secret within post-war German society, that some people in high positions had a Nazi-past.  The film is called “The Nasty Girl”.   You might find it interesting.

My great uncle was Frederick Babbel and he wrote a book "On Wings of Faith" where he went with Apostle Ezra Taft Benson right after WW2 was completed and delivered relief supplies in all of the militarized zones across Europe.  He describes what he saw and the miracles he witnessed as they went from checkpoint to checkpoint.

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

What makes you think they were acquiescing to oppresive government and weren't keeping in mind the lives of the saints and those they come in contact with and the missions those people needed still to fulfill?

 

That's a good question. By its very nature, if a leader of a church says "comply with the rules put forth by your local government leaders" then there is no resistance so I think that acquiesce is a good term to use to describe what the church leaders are doing. Whether they are keeping in mind the lives of the saints and missions and stuff doesn't change that they bent the knee to the oppressive governments.

In another thread people are talking about the church in China and it reminded me of this thread because the Chinese government is very oppressive and the church is in China with a very weak presence while being headquartered in an enemy country. It could very well be that where the church is at in its lifecycle, or what kind of government it starts in (the church planting seed in the Middle East vs USA are two very different situations), could determine what kind of approach to take with oppressive governments when trying to fulfill its grand mission of bringing all unto the restored gospel of Christ.

When the church first started it was oppressed by the United States government, and so they fled the country and basically started their own. If the US government became oppressive now, there's nowhere to flee to so in order for the church to continue existing maybe church leaders do need to make a lot of concessions in the short-term in order to fulfill the long-term vision.

I know that if I relate the church's growth to my own life, I can see that I make tons of tactical (short-term) errors in my decisions and judgments. Yet God is a master of strategy and playing the long game, and somehow He ends up using all of those dumb decisions I made to better me if I have a humble attitude about things. Just kind of thinking out loud here.

[Rain]

46 minutes ago, JVW said:

That's a good question. By its very nature, if a leader of a church says "comply with the rules put forth by your local government leaders" then there is no resistance so I think that acquiesce is a good term to use to describe what the church leaders are doing. Whether they are keeping in mind the lives of the saints and missions and stuff doesn't change that they bent the knee to the oppressive governments.

Are they bending the knee to oppressive governments or are they recognizing that the local government leaders will know the current local health outlook better?

46 minutes ago, JVW said:

In another thread people are talking about the church in China and it reminded me of this thread because the Chinese government is very oppressive and the church is in China with a very weak presence while being headquartered in an enemy country. It could very well be that where the church is at in its lifecycle, or what kind of government it starts in (the church planting seed in the Middle East vs USA are two very different situations), could determine what kind of approach to take with oppressive governments when trying to fulfill its grand mission of bringing all unto the restored gospel of Christ.

When the church first started it was oppressed by the United States government, and so they fled the country and basically started their own. If the US government became oppressive now, there's nowhere to flee to so in order for the church to continue existing maybe church leaders do need to make a lot of concessions in the short-term in order to fulfill the long-term vision.

I know that if I relate the church's growth to my own life, I can see that I make tons of tactical (short-term) errors in my decisions and judgments. Yet God is a master of strategy and playing the long game, and somehow He ends up using all of those dumb decisions I made to better me if I have a humble attitude about things. Just kind of thinking out loud here.

 

Edited November 13, 2024 by Rain

[Okrahomer]

46 minutes ago, JVW said:

My great uncle was Frederick Babbel and he wrote a book "On Wings of Faith"

I loved that book, and I’m positive you are related.  Unfortunately, I don’t remember the exact connection Elder Babbel had to Frederick, but it was quite close.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

That's a good question. By its very nature, if a leader of a church says "comply with the rules put forth by your local government leaders" then there is no resistance so I think that acquiesce is a good term to use to describe what the church leaders are doing. Whether they are keeping in mind the lives of the saints and missions and stuff doesn't change that they bent the knee to the oppressive governments.

In another thread people are talking about the church in China and it reminded me of this thread because the Chinese government is very oppressive and the church is in China with a very weak presence while being headquartered in an enemy country. It could very well be that where the church is at in its lifecycle, or what kind of government it starts in (the church planting seed in the Middle East vs USA are two very different situations), could determine what kind of approach to take with oppressive governments when trying to fulfill its grand mission of bringing all unto the restored gospel of Christ.

When the church first started it was oppressed by the United States government, and so they fled the country and basically started their own. If the US government became oppressive now, there's nowhere to flee to so in order for the church to continue existing maybe church leaders do need to make a lot of concessions in the short-term in order to fulfill the long-term vision.

I know that if I relate the church's growth to my own life, I can see that I make tons of tactical (short-term) errors in my decisions and judgments. Yet God is a master of strategy and playing the long game, and somehow He ends up using all of those dumb decisions I made to better me if I have a humble attitude about things. Just kind of thinking out loud here.

How did Jesus exemplify the various ways we can manage oppressive or corrupt governments, or other such organizations?

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Are they bending the knee to oppressive governments or are they recognizing that the local government leaders will know the current local health outlook better?

Maybe a little bit of both, though I'm not sure what you mean by "current local health outlook" as that doesn't exactly apply in Taliban ruled middle east, or even in Israel where we aren't allowed to proselyte.

I imagine that, say, in Africa, where you need to grease palms in order to buy real estate, that the church greases palms even though it's technically illegal and (possibly?) immoral. I would guess that the church currently prioritizes good relationships with the governments around the world than it does in being uncompromising on its moral principles and beliefs.

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How did Jesus exemplify the various ways we can manage oppressive or corrupt governments, or other such organizations?

It's interesting to think about. There is obviously the "render undo Caesar" thing, but on the other hand He committed blasphemy according to the laws of His government and was sentenced to death for it. And after His death, the Apostles did whatever they wanted regardless of what the government said. They were thrown into prison, killed, etc. This happens all the time in the Book of Mormon too, missionaries being thrown into prison for violating some law or other.

Another interesting thing to note is that we know what will happen to true Christian disciples in the days before the Second Coming as the book of Revelation describes it. Many Christians who do not take on the mark of the beast in order to participate in the worldwide economy will be executed by beheading. This indicates that there will not really be an overt rejection of the ruling class, but rather a silent rebellion in not taking the mark.

Quote

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 20:4 ... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Due to the sentiment I'm gathering from these verses, I'm thinking that the church's role leading up to the Second Coming will be docile like a lamb, submissive, meak, and willing to suffer whatever comes its way. Not like a lion like the way it was in the early days of the church or under captain Moroni.

Edited November 13, 2024 by JVW

[Frank11]

Most people are not born to be heroes, whether Catholics, Protestants or even Mormons. The few who became heroes during the Nazi era have schools, streets and squares in Germany named after them.

Not a single small street in Germany is named after a Mormon prophet, but several schools and streets here are named after a Mormon boy who was executed at the age of 17.

His name was Helmuth Hübener. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Maybe a little bit of both, though I'm not sure what you mean by "current local health outlook" as that doesn't exactly apply in Taliban ruled middle east, or even in Israel where we aren't allowed to proselyte.

I imagine that, say, in Africa, where you need to grease palms in order to buy real estate, that the church greases palms even though it's technically illegal and (possibly?) immoral. I would guess that the church currently prioritizes good relationships with the governments around the world than it does in being uncompromising on its moral principles and beliefs.

It's interesting to think about. There is obviously the "render undo Caesar" thing, but on the other hand He committed blasphemy according to the laws of His government and was sentenced to death for it. And after His death, the Apostles did whatever they wanted regardless of what the government said. They were thrown into prison, killed, etc. This happens all the time in the Book of Mormon too, missionaries being thrown into prison for violating some law or other.

Another interesting thing to note is that we know what will happen to true Christian disciples in the days before the Second Coming as the book of Revelation describes it. Many Christians who do not take on the mark of the beast in order to participate in the worldwide economy will be executed by beheading. This indicates that there will not really be an overt rejection of the ruling class, but rather a silent rebellion in not taking the mark.

Due to the sentiment I'm gathering from these verses, I'm thinking that the church's role leading up to the Second Coming will be docile like a lamb, submissive, meak, and willing to suffer whatever comes its way. Not like a lion like the way it was in the early days of the church or under captain Moroni.

There seem to be various appropriate ways to manage oppressive or corrupt governments, or other such organizations. He also sometimes cleansed the temple, and sometimes He simply slipped away from mobs or arresting authorities. As for the last days, we are given a scenario for "the destruction of their enemies by fire ...[the righteous] shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire." (1 Nephi 22: 17).

[Rain]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Maybe a little bit of both, though I'm not sure what you mean by "current local health outlook" as that doesn't exactly apply in Taliban ruled middle east, or even in Israel where we aren't allowed to proselyte.

I was replying directly to what you said here: "So I am confused, for example, by the choice the church made to close all of the temples during the Covid years. We are taught that in the temple is basically the fulfillment of the purpose of why God created everything. So why would God direct His prophets to acquiesce to an oppressive government and pause the fulfillment of the entire purpose for our existence on Earth?"

As far  as I am aware there were no temples closed for covid reasons in Taliban ruled areas or Israel.

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I imagine that, say, in Africa, where you need to grease palms in order to buy real estate, that the church greases palms even though it's technically illegal and (possibly?) immoral. I would guess that the church currently prioritizes good relationships with the governments around the world than it does in being uncompromising on its moral principles and beliefs.

It's interesting to think about. There is obviously the "render undo Caesar" thing, but on the other hand He committed blasphemy according to the laws of His government and was sentenced to death for it. And after His death, the Apostles did whatever they wanted regardless of what the government said. They were thrown into prison, killed, etc. This happens all the time in the Book of Mormon too, missionaries being thrown into prison for violating some law or other.

Another interesting thing to note is that we know what will happen to true Christian disciples in the days before the Second Coming as the book of Revelation describes it. Many Christians who do not take on the mark of the beast in order to participate in the worldwide economy will be executed by beheading. This indicates that there will not really be an overt rejection of the ruling class, but rather a silent rebellion in not taking the mark.

Due to the sentiment I'm gathering from these verses, I'm thinking that the church's role leading up to the Second Coming will be docile like a lamb, submissive, meak, and willing to suffer whatever comes its way. Not like a lion like the way it was in the early days of the church or under captain Moroni.

 

[Okrahomer]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Just don’t ever ask me to demonstrate my basketball skills, lol

I love the game, but I was a perpetual  bench-warmer in High School.  If you asked me to shoot free-throws, a good percentage wouldn’t even hit the backboard.

[let’s roll]

47 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

I love the game, but I was a perpetual  bench-warmer in High School.  If you asked me to shoot free-throws, a good percentage wouldn’t even hit the backboard.

A good free throw shouldn’t hit the backboard, or even the rim…nothing but net, as they say.😊🏀

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

n the other hand He committed blasphemy according to the laws of His government

Did he or did they just think he did?  If he is the Son of God, were his claims blasphemy?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

This happens all the time in the Book of Mormon too, missionaries being thrown into prison for violating some law or other.

Then there is Ammon killing people to protect the local government’s property (the king being the government).

Mormon again leading the unrighteous Nephites at the end as their general even though they had been delighting in blood and carnage. 

Edited November 14, 2024 by Calm