You tube channel called, "Still Mormon" with an episode denying Joseph Smith lived polygamy.

[Tacenda]

I am posting to get a response if any care to give it. I recognized this guy from the romance film called, "Charly". I remember reading the book while a young adult and then seeing the film later on based on the book and he played the male lead. 

Now he's got this youtube channel named, "Still Mormon" and I believe it may have saved his testimony perhaps, just speculating. Along with many others I'm thinking. Is this one way to hold onto their testimony not believing that Joseph lived polygamy I wonder. ETA: My topic heading should have been typed: YouTube. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Tacenda

[blackstrap]

Seems like the Lord is OK with polygamy if He is the one giving wives to a man.

⁷ Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. ⁸ I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. ⁹ Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. ¹⁰ Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

¹¹ “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. ¹² You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

[sunstoned]

I think it was the Iron Age tribes who were responsible for the books of the old estimates, who were the ones who were okay with polygamy.

[webbles]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Is this one way to hold onto their testimony not believing that Joseph lived polygamy I wonder.

I think this is the same guy that was on the "132 Problems" videos talking about how the William Clayton's journals are not contemporary evidence.  Jeremy Hoop was his name there and it looks like he was also in Charlie.  Based on the video in "132 Problems", he seems to believe that Joseph Smith is a real prophet but Brigham Young isn't one.  I don't know how that helps with holding onto your testimony.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

books of the old estimates

Not a bad name for them.

(If someone thinks I am mocking them, I am not; I love the OT, they are my second favorite scripture after PoGP, Genesis being my favorite of the second favorite)

Edited October 8, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

Nice. I wanna watch that video right now. I'm curious. 🩵

[carbon dioxide]

Of course the Book of Mormon does not condemn Moses, Abraham, Jacob and others who practiced polygamy.  Gee I wonder why David and Solomon are the ones singled out.  Perhaps they did some things that went beyond what was proper?   I have never had a problem with the issue of polygamy.  I personally would not want it. Monogamy is sometimes one wife too many.   I have no problem with others doing it.   I also can not understand those who support gay marriage but have a problem with polygamy.  That is like Twilight Zone thinking to me but whatever. 

Edited October 8, 2024 by carbon dioxide

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Of course the Book of Mormon does not condemn Moses, Abraham, Jacob and others who practiced polygamy.

The BoM doesn't condemn Moses or Abraham specifically, but pretty clearly condemns their behavior: 

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

[bluebell]

Just now, LoudmouthMormon said:

The BoM doesn't condemn Moses or Abraham specifically, but pretty clearly condemns their behavior: 

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

I think it depends on the definition of 'many'.  David and Solomon had hundreds.  Does that mean that someone who had 2 or 4 was under the same condemnation?  It doesn't seem to but maybe the argument can be made to support it.

[Tacenda]

23 hours ago, webbles said:

I think this is the same guy that was on the "132 Problems" videos talking about how the William Clayton's journals are not contemporary evidence.  Jeremy Hoop was his name there and it looks like he was also in Charlie.  Based on the video in "132 Problems", he seems to believe that Joseph Smith is a real prophet but Brigham Young isn't one.  I don't know how that helps with holding onto your testimony.

The polygamy thing with Joseph Smith and the ages and circumstances are what led me to lose my testimony. 

[Dario_M]

Omg i've watch the video.

I also thought that Joseph Smith didn't practise polygamy. Now i'm not so sure anymore. But anyway... regards or Joseph Smith practise polygamy or not i don't really care because he did a lot of other good things as well. 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Omg i've watch the video.

I also thought that Joseph Smith didn't practise polygamy. Now i'm not so sure anymore. But anyway... regards or Joseph Smith practise polygamy or not i don't really care because he did a lot of other good things as well. 

Yes, you do you Dario!!

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, you do you Dario!!

Hahaha. 🤣 Yeah i feel like i need to defend poor Joseph a little bit you know. 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Dario_M

[webbles]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The polygamy thing with Joseph Smith and the ages and circumstances are what led me to lose my testimony. 

But would believing that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy while Brigham Young (and most of the other 12 apostles and other leaders) went behind his back have helped keep your testimony?  Also throw in the idea that Brigham forced women to lie about it.  I could see it help someone keep a testimony of Joseph but it feels like it would destroy a testimony of Brigham.  So, that person would need to find another version of Mormonism that doesn't follow Brigham.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, webbles said:

But would believing that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy while Brigham Young (and most of the other 12 apostles and other leaders) went behind his back have helped keep your testimony?  Also throw in the idea that Brigham forced women to lie about it.  I could see it help someone keep a testimony of Joseph but it feels like it would destroy a testimony of Brigham.  So, that person would need to find another version of Mormonism that doesn't follow Brigham.

Well, I just thought Brigham Young and others married widows after losing husbands on the trek or elsewhere. So I was pretty naive. I wasn't taught in Sunday school or Primary lessons of the warts of how BY lived it. 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Tacenda

[webbles]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I just thought Brigham Young and others married others because of widows losing husbands on the trek or elsewhere. So I was pretty naive. I wasn't taught in Sunday school or primary lessons of the warts of how BY lived it. 

Do you have any ancestors who practiced polygamy?  Because for me, I have plenty of skeletons in my family closet about polygamy and so I always knew polygamy to have issues.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

Do you have any ancestors who practiced polygamy?  Because for me, I have plenty of skeletons in my family closet about polygamy and so I always knew polygamy to have issues.

Yes, but growing up I wasn't told they lived polygamy. I wasn't aware until I happen to be on Family Search and my tree and saw a story about them. It was even told on the movie called, 17 Miracles, with the mother that wanted to quit on the trail and suddenly a baked pie appeared on the trail that her daughters were standing on probably crying because their mother said she couldn't go on. My mom had mentioned something like Mary and her sister didn't get along. But I bet it was Mary's sister wife that didn't get along. Now I can't find the story but I read an added story on Family Search that I can't find now, that Mary's husband James went on a LDS mission and brought a woman home after the mission ended and told Mary they were going to live polygamy and introduced the new wife. And Mary had a pot of something she'd been cooking, now can't remember what, and threw it in their faces or something, probably wasn't cooked yet. Now I will have to go back and read the story.  Did find this on Family Search though:

"James Mellor, Sr. was born 30 March 1819 in Leicester, Leicestershire, England. He was born to William Mellor and Ann Dilks. He and his wife Mary Ann Payne joined the church in 1844 in England. Twelve years later they left for the United States aboard the "Horizon." Two days prior to leaving Liverpool, Mary Ann gave birth to conjoined twins, who died. Mary Ann was very ill but told her husband that she wanted to go with him and their family. Bad weather delayed the departure of the ship for two days. Although Mary Ann was very ill, she was determined that they should carry her aboard the ship where the rest of their family was awaiting the moment of departure. They arrived in Boston, Massachusetts and took rail until they reached Iowa. From Iowa, they were in the Martin Handcart Company and arrived in Salt Lake City on 30 November 1856. They suffered unbelievable hardship on their journey. In the spring of 1861, the Mellors were one of 5 families called by Brigham Young to settle a valley in Central Utah. They called the settlement Warm springs. The name of the settlement was later changed to Fayette, Utah. In 1869, James organized a mulberry plantation to produce silk. He build the first brick house in Fayette in 1870. James was a missionary to England, 1875-1877. He returned with a 2nd polygamous wife, Mary “Polly” Knowels, and was married to her in the St George Endowment House in November, 1877. James had 12 children with his first wife; 3 of whom died. He had 6 children with his 2nd wife, the first child of this union passed away. James spent time in jail in the 1880’s when anti-polygamy laws were enforced. He was subsequently divorced from his second wife. James passed away on December 19, 1903 at the age of 84, he is buried in the Fayette, Utah cemetery."

 

And then I found this: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/KWJW-2HL

 

ETA: I remember when I was in grade school and being in a play that my stake/ward put on about the Willie Handcart company trek or ordeal, and I got to play the part of Mary and James Sr.'s daughter, Clara, my ancestor. That was a very cool experience. But I didn't understand at the time of the significance.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Tacenda

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, but growing up I wasn't told they lived polygamy. I wasn't aware until I happen to be on Family Search and my tree and saw a story about them. It was even told on the movie called, 17 Miracles, with the mother that wanted to quit on the trail and suddenly a baked pie appeared on the trail that her daughters were standing on probably crying because their mother said she couldn't go on. My mom had mentioned something like Mary and her sister didn't get along. But I bet it was Mary's sister wife that didn't get along. Now I can't find the story but I read an added story on Family Search that I can't find now, that Mary's husband James went on a LDS mission and brought a woman home after the mission ended and told Mary they were going to live polygamy and introduced the new wife. And Mary had a pot of something she'd been cooking, now can't remember what, and threw it in their faces or something, probably wasn't cooked yet. Now I will have to go back and read the story.  Did find this on Family Search though:

"James Mellor, Sr. was born 30 March 1819 in Leicester, Leicestershire, England. He was born to William Mellor and Ann Dilks. He and his wife Mary Ann Payne joined the church in 1844 in England. Twelve years later they left for the United States aboard the "Horizon." Two days prior to leaving Liverpool, Mary Ann gave birth to conjoined twins, who died. Mary Ann was very ill but told her husband that she wanted to go with him and their family. Bad weather delayed the departure of the ship for two days. Although Mary Ann was very ill, she was determined that they should carry her aboard the ship where the rest of their family was awaiting the moment of departure. They arrived in Boston, Massachusetts and took rail until they reached Iowa. From Iowa, they were in the Martin Handcart Company and arrived in Salt Lake City on 30 November 1856. They suffered unbelievable hardship on their journey. In the spring of 1861, the Mellors were one of 5 families called by Brigham Young to settle a valley in Central Utah. They called the settlement Warm springs. The name of the settlement was later changed to Fayette, Utah. In 1869, James organized a mulberry plantation to produce silk. He build the first brick house in Fayette in 1870. James was a missionary to England, 1875-1877. He returned with a 2nd polygamous wife, Mary “Polly” Knowels, and was married to her in the St George Endowment House in November, 1877. James had 12 children with his first wife; 3 of whom died. He had 6 children with his 2nd wife, the first child of this union passed away. James spent time in jail in the 1880’s when anti-polygamy laws were enforced. He was subsequently divorced from his second wife. James passed away on December 19, 1903 at the age of 84, he is buried in the Fayette, Utah cemetery."

 

And then I found this: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/KWJW-2HL

 

I wonder if that is a factor on why it was problematic to you vs not problematic to me.  I learned about my polygamous roots as a child.  When I was in first grade, I remember my teacher mentioning to me that we were related through Joseph Smith, but from different wives.  I'm actually not related to any of the wives of Joseph, but one of the women that he proposed to (and turned him down) was a sister wife of one of my ancestors.  A large portion of my ancestors moved to the Mexican Colonies because of polygamy so I knew that history.  There were some things I didn't learn about till an adult (such as an ancestor who went and started up a polygamous cult in the mid 1900s and was excommunicated for it) but polygamy was always a part of my family history.

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, webbles said:

I wonder if that is a factor on why it was problematic to you vs not problematic to me.  I learned about my polygamous roots as a child.  When I was in first grade, I remember my teacher mentioning to me that we were related through Joseph Smith, but from different wives.  I'm actually not related to any of the wives of Joseph, but one of the women that he proposed to (and turned him down) was a sister wife of one of my ancestors.  A large portion of my ancestors moved to the Mexican Colonies because of polygamy so I knew that history.  There were some things I didn't learn about till an adult (such as an ancestor who went and started up a polygamous cult in the mid 1900s and was excommunicated for it) but polygamy was always a part of my family history.

That's an interesting claim for the teacher to make, since there are no known children from any of JS's wives but Emma, right?

[webbles]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's an interesting claim for the teacher to make, since there are no known children from any of JS's wives but Emma, right?

Correct.  I think she was trying to say that were both related to a wife of Joseph Smith, but not actually through Joseph Smith.  Many of the wives later had children with other husbands.  But, it was first grade so my memory could be wrong.  I do remember being really interested and have tried to validate what she said since at least my teenage years.  That's when I found the woman that had received a proposal (Cordelia Morley Cox).  She's a sister wife of Mary Ann Darrow who is my ancestor.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I wonder if that is a factor on why it was problematic to you vs not problematic to me.  I learned about my polygamous roots as a child.  When I was in first grade, I remember my teacher mentioning to me that we were related through Joseph Smith, but from different wives.  I'm actually not related to any of the wives of Joseph, but one of the women that he proposed to (and turned him down) was a sister wife of one of my ancestors.  A large portion of my ancestors moved to the Mexican Colonies because of polygamy so I knew that history.  There were some things I didn't learn about till an adult (such as an ancestor who went and started up a polygamous cult in the mid 1900s and was excommunicated for it) but polygamy was always a part of my family history.

I first learned of JS's polygamy in my late forties and it felt like everything was in slow motion, the feeling you have in a car wreck or something similar. Funny thing is when I brought it up to my visiting teachers later on and asked if they knew about it, they didn't know and one of them said they don't want to hear anything about it either. And also, the day I saw this information on the internet I saw my friend/neighbor outside and asked her and she told me it's anti Mormon stuff. So it was surreal to drive through my 99 percent LDS neighborhood and feel like I was the only one that knew and in the Twilight Zone. Terrible time in my life, in or around 2006 or 2007.  

It got to the point after reading, "In Sacred Loneliness" that I couldn't accept it. Told my bishop and this is crazy sounding but the following Sunday the Sacrament meeting was all about Joseph Smith and the testament to him as a prophet. He told my son earlier to tell me to pay special attention to the Sacrament meeting. It didn't really help, felt discounted like I was being silly to be worrying over it. 

Then things about polygamy and JS started turning up on Wiki and the bishopric were saying it was just some Wiki stuff, the 1st or 2nd counselor when interviewing me for a Temple recommend told me that. And then onto the Stake Presidency for the final signature for my TR. He said it's okay to wonder but not to question these things. 

But enough, I'm coming around to not be going through such feelings, even going to church this Sunday for my neighbor's son's missionary homecoming.

 

[gmormon]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

....(such as an ancestor who went and started up a polygamous cult in the mid 1900s and was excommunicated for it)....

By any chance was that ancestor a LeBaron?

[webbles]

44 minutes ago, gmormon said:

By any chance was that ancestor a LeBaron?

No.  It only lasted a few years.

[gmormon]

6 hours ago, webbles said:

No.  It only lasted a few years.

What was the name of his church?

[webbles]

2 hours ago, gmormon said:

What was the name of his church?

Didn't have a name.  It was a group of members in a branch (West Tintic branch) that started to swap/share wives.  The reason for swapping wives was supposedly because they felt that the United Order required it of them.  I know a few descendants of the branch members and the general consensus of the descendants is that a few of the men just wanted to get other wives and so convinced the other men that it was required by the United Order.  There isn't much about them online as it was a really small group.