Apology for the Priesthood Ban / "March of Dimes Syndrome" / "Mission Creep" / "Spencer's Law"

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Dario, you can disagree with me as well, but “woke” has a long history of use and has nothing to do with a ghostbuster movie except as a caricature of the movement.  

If you are going to use the word, it would be better if you study its background rather than assume you already know because using it in the wrong way makes you look uneducated and even bigoted (and I assume you are not).  Please don’t assume that those using it here to insult others are using it correctly.

Think of how you would view someone who was criticizing the gay rights movement by acting as if it hadn’t existed until a few years ago and had started with a bad movie?

Yup, my daughter gave me some cups with straws as a present, several. And one of them say woke, and it's true meaning. They really should not use "woke". It's a triggering word for me because of the political misuse of the word. 

[longview]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just assuming one has the right to tell someone else what they can and cannot do without providing the help to do what one sees as right is not sincerity, but a power trip in many people’s eyes. 

These days, we are seeing a strange phenomena on both sides. People being given long prison sentences merely for praying on the sidewalk across the street from abortion "clinics." On the other hand, we see viscous attacks on pregnancy assistance centers by abortion advocates. Why can't women consult and explore options for dealing with unplanned pregnancies? They help with finding adoption services, arranging for living with potential adoptees, free sonograms, social counseling, and so forth. Why are opponents so dead set against the help centers? Because it could greatly impact the lucrative abortion industry revenue? Why are taxpayers and medical insurance companies forced to subsidize late term abortions? Who is power-tripping here?

From Google:

Pregnancy help centers, also known as pregnancy centers or pregnancy resource centers, can include:

• Care Net: A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• Heartbeat International: A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA): A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• Open Arms Pregnancy Center: A pregnancy center in Hendersonville 
• Pregnancy Resource Center of Cleveland County: A pregnancy resource center 
• Life Choices Rowan: A pregnancy center in Salisbury 
• Smoky Mountain Pregnancy Care Center: A pregnancy center in Franklin 
• Your Choices Randolph: A pregnancy center in Asheboro 

If there are not enough of those help centers, then women can meet with other community services and charitable organizations and even churches.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, longview said:

People being given long prison sentences merely for praying on the sidewalk across the street from abortion "clinics."

And if that was the only thing they were doing, somehow I doubt it would be an issue. Taking actions out of context and acting as if they were independent of surrounding behaviors is as wrong as taking words out of context and saying they mean something different than the original meaning.

”On the other hand, we see viscous attacks on pregnancy assistance centers by abortion advocates.”

Are you claiming there have been criminal actions and  no one is investigating or being held accountable by law officers?  Evidence please. 
 

“Why are opponents so dead set against the help centers? ”  

I am all for any help provided for women wanting to be mothers  

Usually when I hear of criticisms of pregnancy help centers, it’s due to them providing incorrect information about abortions or something else.  Iirc, in one case it was a volunteer told someone they had more time to decide to get an abortion, lying about it, so it would be too late to get one.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9189146/

“These facilities engage in purposefully manipulative and deceptive practices that spread misinformation on sexual health and abortion. CPCs have also been shown to delay access to medically legitimate prenatal and abortion care, which negatively impacts maternal health.”

Any criticism that is unfounded is wrong imo, whatever side it comes from.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

7 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

In the States that won't matter to the crowd pushing for redefining traditional social norms.

But it is a big differends if you know what i mean. 

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

It's not relevant because it has nothing to do with being gay. But more with feeling like you are a girl while you're in a boys body. Or the other way around. I'm gay but i still feel like i'm a man. Not a woman. 

Well, you are different then a trans person then. Trans feel they are opposite of the sex they were born with. I have a niece that dresses like a boy and is probably a trans. Except only in clothing and her personality, she hasn't transitioned fully. I believe babies can be born trans or the sex that doesn't feel right to them, in the physical and the mental. 

Maybe this will explain it, but I'm sure you're aware. I'm just discussing...

But again, no surgeries should be done on a minor but counseling all the way until they are old enough to make the decision that is such a major one and not to be taken lightly.

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people#:~:text=A transgender person is usually,a lot more to it.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Tacenda

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But it is a big differends if you know what i mean. 

For the crowd here anything falling outside of Judeo-Christian morality is sacrosanct and must not be interfered with.

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Well, you are different then a trans person then. Trans fill they are opposite of the sex they were born with. I have a niece that dresses like a boy and is probably a trans. Except only in clothing and her personality, she hasn't transitioned fully. I believe babies can be born trans or the sex that doesn't feel right to them, in the physical and the mental. 

Yeah exactly that's just what i meant indeed. 

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe this will explain it, but I'm sure you're aware. I'm just discussing...

But again, no surgeries should be done on a minor but counseling all the way until they are old enough to make the decision that is such a major one and not to be taken lightly.

This 100% 💯

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, longview said:

These days, we are seeing a strange phenomena on both sides. People being given long prison sentences merely for praying on the sidewalk across the street from abortion "clinics." On the other hand, we see viscous attacks on pregnancy assistance centers by abortion advocates. Why can't women consult and explore options for dealing with unplanned pregnancies? They help with finding adoption services, arranging for living with potential adoptees, free sonograms, social counseling, and so forth. Why are opponents so dead set against the help centers? Because it could greatly impact the lucrative abortion industry revenue? Why are taxpayers and medical insurance companies forced to subsidize late term abortions? Who is power-tripping here?

From Google:

Pregnancy help centers, also known as pregnancy centers or pregnancy resource centers, can include:

• Care Net: A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• Heartbeat International: A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA): A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• Open Arms Pregnancy Center: A pregnancy center in Hendersonville 
• Pregnancy Resource Center of Cleveland County: A pregnancy resource center 
• Life Choices Rowan: A pregnancy center in Salisbury 
• Smoky Mountain Pregnancy Care Center: A pregnancy center in Franklin 
• Your Choices Randolph: A pregnancy center in Asheboro 

If there are not enough of those help centers, then women can meet with other community services and charitable organizations and even churches.

And, as it happens, these Pregnancy Resource Centers are being targeted for financial destruction.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, longview said:

These days, we are seeing a strange phenomena on both sides. People being given long prison sentences merely for praying on the sidewalk across the street from abortion "clinics." On the other hand, we see viscous attacks on pregnancy assistance centers by abortion advocates. Why can't women consult and explore options for dealing with unplanned pregnancies? They help with finding adoption services, arranging for living with potential adoptees, free sonograms, social counseling, and so forth. Why are opponents so dead set against the help centers? Because it could greatly impact the lucrative abortion industry revenue? Why are taxpayers and medical insurance companies forced to subsidize late term abortions? Who is power-tripping here?

From Google:

Pregnancy help centers, also known as pregnancy centers or pregnancy resource centers, can include:

• Care Net: A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• Heartbeat International: A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA): A national network that is affiliated with many crisis pregnancy centers 
• Open Arms Pregnancy Center: A pregnancy center in Hendersonville 
• Pregnancy Resource Center of Cleveland County: A pregnancy resource center 
• Life Choices Rowan: A pregnancy center in Salisbury 
• Smoky Mountain Pregnancy Care Center: A pregnancy center in Franklin 
• Your Choices Randolph: A pregnancy center in Asheboro 

If there are not enough of those help centers, then women can meet with other community services and charitable organizations and even churches.

So many out there don't understand "late term abortions" correctly. There are circumstances for late term or other abortions that have good reasons. In states where they only allow women to get an abortion for rape or for the "life" of the mother, they still cannot abort a baby until the mother is nearly dead. So they need to change the wording in some states. And then we have states that banned abortion totally and we get women dying all over the place and women that wanted that baby and because it died in the womb she was told she had to wait to deliver it and then it causes health situations that made it so she could never have children because of waiting. So, we need to get this "late term" definition out there for all to see. it's often that the fetus isn't viable or has died in the womb that they perform these late abortions. No women, would abort a healthy full term baby. Show me one. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html

https://abcnews.go.com/US/delayed-denied-women-pushed-deaths-door-abortion-care/story?id=105563255

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/01/15/abortion-high-risk-pregnancy-yeni-glick

https://www.propublica.org/article/georgia-abortion-ban-amber-thurman-death

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/04/25/1171851775/oklahoma-woman-abortion-ban-study-shows-confusion-at-hospitals

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/10/11/texas-abortion-law-texas-abortion-ban-nonviable-pregnancies/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/post-roe-america-women-detail-agony-forced-carry/story?id=105563349

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/01/24/1226161416/rape-caused-pregnancy-abortion-ban-states

Edited October 10, 2024 by Tacenda

[california boy]

56 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Great idea except that states have made laws banning "conversion therapy"- making them broad enough to bar psychologist from pretty much anything that hints at trying to get people to rethink their homosexuality.

You think transitioning is related to homosexuality?????   Can you explain that one???

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I have a sneaking suspicion it's very relevant to those advocating such laws 

it does not.  Sneak all you want but transitioning has NOTHING to do with being gay.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Malc said:

Careful, Calm - with views like that you may be accused of being "woke"

Just to be clear, while I believe there are plenty of insincere individuals pushing for bans, especially among politicians who use these kinds of issues to get votes (and this goes for abortion supporters as well who do not support families in other ways), I don’t believe it is a one size fits all situation. I think many Catholics for example who are strongly antiabortion as actively support maternal health care, welfare for lower incomes, ease of adoption, etc.  

For another example, there are many like myself who because of their own experience with medical mistakes and long term, even life altering consequences are against elective surgery for minors (this includes for me invasive cosmetic surgery for refinement of beauty—meaning they are not disfigured by the world’s standards even if by their own— except in extreme cases as that could cause scars that are forever painful or infections or other significant if rare complications.  And actually I would prefer after 25 when there might be more awareness of what the long term consequences of major surgery is. 

In my case for transitioning surgery, I saw such poor mental health care provided over the decades for my daughter from multiple doctors in two countries for her depression and anxiety that it actually made her situation much, much worse so that I view her as basically robbed of the last 5 years of her childhood as well as making a mess of her adulthood. I just don’t trust that anything has changed that much.

I do think using religious language that so thoroughly condemns like “desolation of abomination” displays at least religious disgust, though I don’t always assume that translates to hate, though I don’t see disdain or disgust as all that much better.  In many cases it would be worse (because disdain and disgust implies wrongness or inferiority in the other where hate may not).

Edited October 10, 2024 by Calm

[longview]

49 minutes ago, smac97 said:

1 hour ago, Calm said:

without providing the help to do what one sees as right is not sincerity, but a power trip in many people’s eyes. 

Perhaps we should ask people like Longview what he thinks about such things.

@longview, can you weigh in here?  Are you opposed to therapy for minors dealing with Gender Dysphoria and such issues?

I just posted a response to Calm on "power trips."

I believe there are excellent counseling services with genuine and wise helpers. But I agree with Zealous here:

43 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Great idea except that states have made laws banning "conversion therapy"- making them broad enough to bar psychologist from pretty much anything that hints at trying to get people to rethink their homosexuality.

Sadly the psychologist profession has been greatly politicized for several decades. Consider how mental institutions have literally been "emptied out" soon after the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" came out. Advocates romanticized this movie. Now we are faced with a massive problem of "homeless" people refusing to get help or take their medicine.

Now the profession is running "interference" against the best interest of society by greasing the skids for enabling radical procedures on gullible children. As I mentioned earlier, there are many radical teachers secretly grooming children into the "lifestyle." Too many "power-trippers" getting into the act. Institutions such as colleges and sport organizations are violating the original spirit of Title IX by severely endangering women's right to sport venues of their own and being subjected to brutal abuses by unfair and violent "pretend-women."

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 minutes ago, california boy said:

it does not.  Sneak all you want but transitioning has NOTHING to do with being gay.

I UNDERSTAND that- see my follow up posts.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Similarly, allowing for reasonable minds to disagree, without the imputation of motives onto online strangers, is likewise a good idea.  Perhaps the people who are disagreeing with you on this topic are as concerned about the welfare of children and their fellow man as you are, so broad and repeated assertions about other people being driving by "religious hatred" and "religious disgust" are unduly provocative and offensive.

I just call them like I see them. <shrug>

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

As to Longview's point, I do think that there are grounds for concern that some parents and doctors are compromised in their assessment of children receiving the medical treatments under discussion. 

This is true for every single medical procedure. If that were truly the concern, then surely banning the procedures wouldn't be the target of legistlaiton. Rather We would be focused on improving procedures for communicating risk, benefits, potential outcomes across the board. No? Do you have data to support this is happening more here? Or is it just anecdotal evidence amplified by people and organizations that share your viewpoints?

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

For example, I think there are some parents who have been essentially coerced into authorizing these procedures on their children by way of a false dilemma (radical surgery or suicide). 

How often does this happen? In what percentage of cases?

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I also think some parents and doctors have been unduly influenced by ideological and/or sociopolitical pressures to pursue these medical treatments on children, without having given sufficient consideration to the issues I have previously noted:

• Comorbidities. 
• Informed consent. 

Show the research that this is particularly a problem here for trans surgeries. IF it is, tailor legislation to address this.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

• Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child.

So they don't share your religious and moral views on what entails the best interest of the child, and so they are compromised?

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

•  
• Irreversibility. 
• Sterilization. 

These are huge concerns that I think most people share. These procedures are huge and drastic and should only be entered into after much counseling and thought. But Sterilization and Irreversibility are not enough to support a ban. What are the outcomes of such surgeries? What percentage of people regret their decision five years down the line? What percentage are happy with it? To what degree are they happy with it? What can we change to reduce negative outcomes and increase positive outcomes?  How does the success rate compare to other large medical procedures?

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

• Cutting off healthy body parts. 

Let me know when we ban male circumcision...

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

• Longitudinal studies essentially absent. 

And we get those by banning procedures? Or studying them cautiously?

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

• Lifelong medical regimens. 

I agree this is a huge medical regime. 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

• Massive ideological/sociopolitical influences/pressures on medical care. 

Show me the actual data. Out of 100 people that underwent gender reassignment surgery, how many of them say that there were "Massive ideological/sociopolitical influences/pressures on medical care. "

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

• Massive social contagion risks. 

"Massive". Really? How do you quantify that. To the extent there are social contagions present, let's enact measures to try and screen those people out. But banning the procedure seems a little bit drastic for this. My Aunt is now in her 70's and was born a male. Her transition was brave, in the face of societal, religious, economic, familial, and cultural pressures to stay a male. Where were you back then raving about "Massive social contagion risks" to kids mental health by forcing them to stay a gender they have never identified with? Doesn't social pressure cut both ways? If there is a social contagion risk here, let's address it. Let's study it. Let's talk to our children about it. But it has no bearing on whether or not trans-surgery should be out right banned.

 

I personally think that a significant surgery of this kind for a minor should be counseled against in most cases pending further data, but it should be available for extreme cases. Legislation, if any, should be tailored as narrowly as possible to reduce bad outcomes (as defined by the patients not political commentators), and create further study.

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

chopping off

In the interest of avoiding inflammatory commentary…

Sounds sensational to me.  Sounds like what happens in horror or serial killer stories.

I wonder how many doctors who perform amputations (why not just use the correct medical terms?) would feel fine with “chopping off” in a serious discussion about the consequences of medical procedures.  Serious question, not rhetorical 

I know plenty of doctors who have at least a touch of gallows humor, so can easily see some doctors might use “chopping off” to describe their own work when not being serious.  Whether that translates to an ease of using it in serious discussions, seems unlikely to me.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

In the interest of avoiding inflammatory commentary…

Sounds sensational to me.  Sounds like what happens in horror or serial killer stories.

I wonder how many doctors who perform amputations (why not just use the correct medical terms?) would feel fine with “chopping off” in a serious discussion about the consequences of medical procedures.  

I know plenty of doctors who have at least a touch of gallows humor, so can easily see some doctors might use “chopping off” to describe their own work when not being serious.

“Removing” would suffice, IMO

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

“Removing” would suffice, IMO

Okay.  So "electively removing healthy body parts of children" and "electively sterilizing children" would be acceptable in your view?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 10, 2024 by smac97

[Rain]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

For the crowd here anything falling outside of Judeo-Christian morality is sacrosanct and must not be interfered with.

CFR that "the crowd" is saying "anything" is ok. From my reading, even the most vocal advocates of child and parent choice do not feel "anything" is ok, let alone sacrosanct.

 

Edited October 10, 2024 by Rain

[california boy]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I UNDERSTAND that- see my follow up posts.

Not seeing a followup post.  Want to just quote it for me.  Because I am very interested in why you think being gay is the same as being trans.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  So "electively removing healthy body parts of children" and "electively sterilizing children" would be acceptable in your view?

Thanks,

-Smac

Are you talking about cirscumcisim?  yeah totally electively removing healthy body parts of children. 

Oh yeah, I have heard of Bris's going terribly bad and actually sterilizing children as well.

Shall we get out the pitch forks and go after all of those performing such unacceptable surgeries?  

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

Quote

Okay.  So "electively removing healthy body parts of children" and "electively sterilizing children" would be acceptable in your view?

Are you talking about cirscumcisim?

No.

Thanks,

-Smac

[california boy]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

Are you talking about cirscumcisim?  yeah totally electively removing healthy body parts of children. 

Oh yeah, I have heard of Bris's going terribly bad and actually sterilizing children as well.

Shall we get out the pitch forks and go after all of those performing such unacceptable surgeries?  

 

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No.

Thanks,

-Smac

Why not? You described that surgery exactly right.  Come on, you should be getting outraged about this like you have been on this entire thread.

 

 

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

Quote

Quote

Quote

Okay.  So "electively removing healthy body parts of children" and "electively sterilizing children" would be acceptable in your view?

Are you talking about cirscumcisim?

No.

Why not?

Because that is not the topic.

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

You described that surgery exactly right.  

I was not referencing circumcision.

This 2023 article has influenced my perspective: 

I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle

Quote

There are more than 100 pediatric gender clinics across the U.S. I worked at one. What’s happening to children is morally and medically appalling.

"{M}ore than 100 pediatric gender clinics."

It is my understanding that we went from zero such clinics prior to 2010 to over 100 since then.

Quote

By Jamie Reed

February 9, 2023

I am a 42-year-old St. Louis native, a queer woman, and politically to the left of Bernie Sanders. My worldview has deeply shaped my career. I have spent my professional life providing counseling to vulnerable populations: children in foster care, sexual minorities, the poor. 

For almost four years, I worked at The Washington University School of Medicine Division of Infectious Diseases with teens and young adults who were HIV positive. Many of them were trans or otherwise gender nonconforming, and I could relate: Through childhood and adolescence, I did a lot of gender questioning myself. I’m now married to a transman, and together we are raising my two biological children from a previous marriage and three foster children we hope to adopt. 

All that led me to a job in 2018 as a case manager at The Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children’s Hospital, which had been established a year earlier. 

The center’s working assumption was that the earlier you treat kids with gender dysphoria, the more anguish you can prevent later on. This premise was shared by the center’s doctors and therapists. Given their expertise, I assumed that abundant evidence backed this consensus. 

During the four years I worked at the clinic as a case manager—I was responsible for patient intake and oversight—around a thousand distressed young people came through our doors. The majority of them received hormone prescriptions that can have life-altering consequences—including sterility. 

The bona fides of the author are noteworthy to me.

Quote

I left the clinic in November of last year because I could no longer participate in what was happening there. By the time I departed, I was certain that the way the American medical system is treating these patients is the opposite of the promise we make to “do no harm.” Instead, we are permanently harming the vulnerable patients in our care.

"{W}e are permanently harming the vulnerable patients in our care."

If this is happening, I think we need to address it.

Quote

Today I am speaking out. I am doing so knowing how toxic the public conversation is around this highly contentious issue—and the ways that my testimony might be misused. I am doing so knowing that I am putting myself at serious personal and professional risk.

Almost everyone in my life advised me to keep my head down. But I cannot in good conscience do so. Because what is happening to scores of children is far more important than my comfort. And what is happening to them is morally and medically appalling.

"{W}hat is happening to {children in transgender clinics} is morally and medically appalling."

Also, I am curious as to the "personal and professional risk" referenced here.

Quote

The Floodgates Open

Soon after my arrival at the Transgender Center, I was struck by the lack of formal protocols for treatment. The center’s physician co-directors were essentially the sole authority.

At first, the patient population was tipped toward what used to be the “traditional” instance of a child with gender dysphoria: a boy, often quite young, who wanted to present as—who wanted to be—a girl. 

Until 2015 or so, a very small number of these boys comprised the population of pediatric gender dysphoria cases. Then, across the Western world, there began to be a dramatic increase in a new population: Teenage girls, many with no previous history of gender distress, suddenly declared they were transgender and demanded immediate treatment with testosterone. 

The suddenness of the massive increase in instances of Gender Dysphoria is, to me, noteworthy.

Quote

I certainly saw this at the center. One of my jobs was to do intake for new patients and their families. When I started there were probably 10 such calls a month. When I left there were 50, and about 70 percent of the new patients were girls. Sometimes clusters of girls arrived from the same high school. 

"Sometimes clusters of girls arrived from the same high school."

How much "social contagion" is going on here?

Quote

This concerned me, but didn’t feel I was in the position to sound some kind of alarm back then. There was a team of about eight of us, and only one other person brought up the kinds of questions I had. Anyone who raised doubts ran the risk of being called a transphobe. 

The girls who came to us had many comorbidities: depression, anxiety, ADHD, eating disorders, obesity. Many were diagnosed with autism, or had autism-like symptoms. A report last year on a British pediatric transgender center found that about one-third of the patients referred there were on the autism spectrum.

I have talked a lot about comorbidities.  I think this deserves a lot of attention.

Quote

Frequently, our patients declared they had disorders that no one believed they had. We had patients who said they had Tourette syndrome (but they didn’t); that they had tic disorders (but they didn’t); that they had multiple personalities (but they didn’t). 

Hmm.

Quote

The doctors privately recognized these false self-diagnoses as a manifestation of social contagion. They even acknowledged that suicide has an element of social contagion. But when I said the clusters of girls streaming into our service looked as if their gender issues might be a manifestation of social contagion, the doctors said gender identity reflected something innate.

To begin transitioning, the girls needed a letter of support from a therapist—usually one we recommended—who they had to see only once or twice for the green light. To make it more efficient for the therapists, we offered them a template for how to write a letter in support of transition. The next stop was a single visit to the endocrinologist for a testosterone prescription. 

That’s all it took. 

A letter of support from a "recommended" therapist + "single visit to the endocrinologist" = "a testosterone prescription."

"That's all it took."

This is pretty troubling.

Quote

When a female takes testosterone, the profound and permanent effects of the hormone can be seen in a matter of months. Voices drop, beards sprout, body fat is redistributed. Sexual interest explodes, aggression increases, and mood can be unpredictable. Our patients were told about some side effects, including sterility. But after working at the center, I came to believe that teenagers are simply not capable of fully grasping what it means to make the decision to become infertile while still a minor. 

"{T}eenagers are simply not capable of fully grasping what it means to make the decision to become infertile while still a minor."

Informed consent is an important topic.

Quote

Side Effects

Many encounters with patients emphasized to me how little these young people understood the profound impacts changing gender would have on their bodies and minds. But the center downplayed the negative consequences, and emphasized the need for transition. As the center’s website said, “Left untreated, gender dysphoria has any number of consequences, from self-harm to suicide. But when you take away the gender dysphoria by allowing a child to be who he or she is, we’re noticing that goes away. The studies we have show these kids often wind up functioning psychosocially as well as or better than their peers.” 

There are no reliable studies showing this. Indeed, the experiences of many of the center’s patients prove how false these assertions are. 

"There are no reliable studies showing this."

Quote

Here’s an example. On Friday, May 1, 2020, a colleague emailed me about a 15-year-old male patient: “Oh dear. I am concerned that [the patient] does not understand what Bicalutamide does.” I responded: “I don’t think that we start anything honestly right now.”

Bicalutamide is a medication used to treat metastatic prostate cancer, and one of its side effects is that it feminizes the bodies of men who take it, including the appearance of breasts. The center prescribed this cancer drug as a puberty blocker and feminizing agent for boys. As with most cancer drugs, bicalutamide has a long list of side effects, and this patient experienced one of them: liver toxicity. He was sent to another unit of the hospital for evaluation and immediately taken off the drug. Afterward, his mother sent an electronic message to the Transgender Center saying that we were lucky her family was not the type to sue.

Liver toxicity.  

Informed consent should have covered this.

Quote

How little patients understood what they were getting into was illustrated by a call we received at the center in 2020 from a 17-year-old biological female patient who was on testosterone. She said she was bleeding from the vagina. In less than an hour she had soaked through an extra heavy pad, her jeans, and a towel she had wrapped around her waist. The nurse at the center told her to go to the emergency room right away.

We found out later this girl had had intercourse, and because testosterone thins the vaginal tissues, her vaginal canal had ripped open. She had to be sedated and given surgery to repair the damage. She wasn’t the only vaginal laceration case we heard about.

Testosterone treatment "thins the vaginal tissues."

Informed consent should have covered this.

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Other girls were disturbed by the effects of testosterone on their clitoris, which enlarges and grows into what looks like a microphallus, or a tiny penis. I counseled one patient whose enlarged clitoris now extended below her vulva, and it chafed and rubbed painfully in her jeans. I advised her to get the kind of compression undergarments worn by biological men who dress to pass as female. At the end of the call I thought to myself, “Wow, we hurt this kid.” 

"Wow, we hurt this kid."

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There are rare conditions in which babies are born with atypical genitalia—cases that call for sophisticated care and compassion. But clinics like the one where I worked are creating a whole cohort of kids with atypical genitals—and most of these teens haven’t even had sex yet. They had no idea who they were going to be as adults. Yet all it took for them to permanently transform themselves was one or two short conversations with a therapist.

Being put on powerful doses of testosterone or estrogen—enough to try to trick your body into mimicking the opposite sex—affects the rest of the body. I doubt that any parent who's ever consented to give their kid testosterone (a lifelong treatment) knows that they’re also possibly signing their kid up for blood pressure medication, cholesterol medication, and perhaps sleep apnea and diabetes. 

But sometimes the parents’ understanding of what they had agreed to do to their children came forcefully: 

 

A parent revoking consent. 

I wonder if the consent was informed in the first instance.

I also wonder if the parent's judgment was compromised by non-medically-relevant factors such as sociopolitical influences, false dilemmas (treatments touted as alternatives to suicide), etc.

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Neglected and Mentally Ill Patients

Besides teenage girls, another new group was referred to us: young people from the inpatient psychiatric unit, or the emergency department, of St. Louis Children’s Hospital. The mental health of these kids was deeply concerning—there were diagnoses like schizophrenia, PTSD, bipolar disorder, and more. Often they were already on a fistful of pharmaceuticals.

Comorbidities.

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This was tragic, but unsurprising given the profound trauma some had been through. Yet no matter how much suffering or pain a child had endured, or how little treatment and love they had received, our doctors viewed gender transition—even with all the expense and hardship it entailed—as the solution.

Some weeks it felt as though almost our entire caseload was nothing but disturbed young people. 

For example, one teenager came to us in the summer of 2022 when he was 17 years old and living in a lockdown facility because he had been sexually abusing dogs. He’d had an awful childhood: His mother was a drug addict, his father was imprisoned, and he grew up in foster care. Whatever treatment he may have been getting, it wasn’t working. 

During our intake I learned from another caseworker that when he got out, he planned to reoffend because he believed the dogs had willingly submitted.

Somewhere along the way, he expressed a desire to become female, so he ended up being seen at our center. From there, he went to a psychologist at the hospital who was known to approve virtually everyone seeking transition. Then our doctor recommended feminizing hormones. At the time, I wondered if this was being done as a form of chemical castration. 

A concern from a healthcare worker: "I wondered if this was being done as a form of chemical castration."

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In Loco Parentis

Another disturbing aspect of the center was its lack of regard for the rights of parents—and the extent to which doctors saw themselves as more informed decision-makers over the fate of these children.

Parental rights being coopted by doctors.  That's troubling.

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In Missouri, only one parent’s consent is required for treatment of their child. But when there was a dispute between the parents, it seemed the center always took the side of the affirming parent.

My concerns about this approach to dissenting parents grew in 2019 when one of our doctors actually testified in a custody hearing against a father who opposed a mother’s wish to start their 11-year-old daughter on puberty blockers. 

I had done the original intake call, and I found the mother quite disturbing. She and the father were getting divorced, and the mother described the daughter as “kind of a tomboy.” So now the mother was convinced her child was trans. But when I asked if her daughter had adopted a boy’s name, if she was distressed about her body, if she was saying she felt like a boy, the mother said no. I explained the girl just didn’t meet the criteria for an evaluation. 

Then a month later, the mother called back and said her daughter now used a boy’s name, was in distress over her body, and wanted to transition. This time the mom and daughter were given an appointment. Our providers decided the girl was trans and prescribed a puberty blocker to prevent her normal development. 

The father adamantly disagreed, said this was all coming from the mother, and a custody battle ensued. After the hearing where our doctor testified in favor of transition, the judge sided with the mother. 

Judges are involved in this stuff now too, it seems.

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‘I Want My Breasts Back’

Because I was the main intake person, I had the broadest perspective on our existing and prospective patients. In 2019, a new group of people appeared on my radar: desisters and detransitioners. Desisters choose not to go through with a transition. Detransitioners are transgender people who decide to return to their birth gender. 

The one colleague with whom I was able to share my concerns agreed with me that we should be tracking desistance and detransition. We thought the doctors would want to collect and understand this data in order to figure out what they had missed. 

We were wrong. One doctor wondered aloud why he would spend time on someone who was no longer his patient. 

But we created a document anyway and called it the Red Flag list. It was an Excel spreadsheet that tracked the kind of patients that kept my colleague and me up at night. 

One of the saddest cases of detransition I witnessed was a teenage girl, who, like so many of our patients, came from an unstable family, was in an uncertain living situation, and had a history of drug use. The overwhelming majority of our patients are white, but this girl was black. She was put on hormones at the center when she was around 16. When she was 18, she went in for a double mastectomy, what’s known as “top surgery.” 

Three months later she called the surgeon’s office to say she was going back to her birth name and that her pronouns were “she” and “her.” Heartbreakingly, she told the nurse, “I want my breasts back.” The surgeon’s office contacted our office because they didn’t know what to say to this girl.

My colleague and I said that we would reach out. It took a while to track her down, and when we did we made sure that she was in decent mental health, that she was not actively suicidal, that she was not using substances. The last I heard, she was pregnant. Of course, she’ll never be able to breastfeed her child. 

"I want my breasts back."

Irreversibility.  I think this is an important concern.

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‘Get On Board, Or Get Out’

My concerns about what was going on at the center started to overtake my life. By spring 2020, I felt a medical and moral obligation to do something. So I spoke up in the office, and sent plenty of emails. 

Here’s just one example: On January 6, 2022, I received an email from a staff therapist asking me for help with a case of a 16-year-old transgender male living in another state. “Parents are open to having patient see a therapist but are not supportive of gender and patient does not want parents to be aware of gender identity. I am having a challenging time finding a gender affirming therapist.”

I replied:

“I do not ethically agree with linking a minor patient to a therapist who would be gender affirming with gender as a focus of their work without that being discussed with the parents and the parent agreeing to that kind of care.”

In all my years at the Washington University School of Medicine, I had received solidly positive performance reviews. But in 2021, that changed. I got a below-average mark for my “Judgment” and “Working Relationships/Cooperative Spirit.” Although I was described as “responsible, conscientious, hard-working and productive” the evaluation also noted: “At times Jamie responds poorly to direction from management with defensiveness and hostility.” 

Things came to a head at a half-day retreat in summer of 2022. In front of the team, the doctors said that my colleague and I had to stop questioning the “medicine and the science” as well as their authority. Then an administrator told us we had to “Get on board, or get out.” It became clear that the purpose of the retreat was to deliver these messages to us.

“Get on board, or get out.”

Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child.  Seemingly ideologically-driven.

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What I Want to See Happen

For a couple of weeks, I tried to put everything behind me and settled into my new job as a clinical research coordinator, managing studies regarding children undergoing bone marrow transplants. 

Then I came across comments from Dr. Rachel Levine, a transgender woman who is a high official at the federal Department of Health and Human Services. The article read: “Levine, the U.S. assistant secretary for health, said that clinics are proceeding carefully and that no American children are receiving drugs or hormones for gender dysphoria who shouldn’t.”

I felt stunned and sickened. It wasn’t true. And I know that from deep first-hand experience. 

So I started writing down everything I could about my experience at the Transgender Center. Two weeks ago, I brought my concerns and documents to the attention of Missouri’s attorney general. He is a Republican. I am a progressive. But the safety of children should not be a matter for our culture wars. 

"{N}o American children are receiving drugs or hormones for gender dysphoria who shouldn’t."

Hmm.

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Click here to read Jamie Reed’s letter to the Missouri AG.

The letter is worth a read.

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Given the secrecy and lack of rigorous standards that characterize youth gender transition across the country, I believe that to ensure the safety of American children, we need a moratorium on the hormonal and surgical treatment of young people with gender dysphoria. 

This merits some real attention.

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In the past 15 years, according to Reuters, the U.S. has gone from having no pediatric gender clinics to more than 100. A thorough analysis should be undertaken to find out what has been done to their patients and why—and what the long-term consequences are.

I have previously voiced concerns about the lack of meaningful data about "long-term consequences."

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There is a clear path for us to follow. Just last year England announced that it would close the Tavistock’s youth gender clinic, then the NHS’s only such clinic in the country, after an investigation revealed shoddy practices and poor patient treatment. Sweden and Finland, too, have investigated pediatric transition and greatly curbed the practice, finding there is insufficient evidence of help, and danger of great harm. 

Some critics describe the kind of treatment offered at places like the Transgender Center where I worked as a kind of national experiment. But that’s wrong. 

Experiments are supposed to be carefully designed. Hypotheses are supposed to be tested ethically. The doctors I worked alongside at the Transgender Center said frequently about the treatment of our patients: “We are building the plane while we are flying it.” No one should be a passenger on that kind of aircraft.

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 10, 2024 by smac97

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Because that is not the topic.

I was not referencing circumcision.

Thanks,

-Smac

But if the issue is electively cutting off healthy body parts, then why aren’t you talking about it as one surgery of the collection of surgeries you find inappropriate as elective removal of healthy body parts…at least enough to say “yes, I apply the same standards to it” as in we need to look at comorbidities, etc associated with it in making decisions about the appropriateness of such surgery.

It qualifies as electively removing healthy body parts, does it not?

If you don’t include circumcision in this discussion or do not apply the same standards to it for some reason, it would appear that it is not a discussion focused on the issue of cutting off healthy body parts, but something else, something more than just the removal of healthy body parts. 

Edited October 10, 2024 by Calm