Deseret News Article: "Coming back to church while reconciling faith and sexuality"

[smac97]

Coming back to church while reconciling faith and sexuality

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Linnette, Paula, Julio, Bennett and Becky all thought that being actively involved in their faith was impossible. Their stories reflect a shared sense of surprise at discovering new joy, unanticipated peace, and ways to harmonize conflicting feelings they hadn’t considered before.

I am glad to see this sort of thing get some attention.

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Editor’s Note: This article is the third in a series exploring patterns in the increasing number of stories being published about people coming back to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The first in this series (February 26, 2024) : ‘Make keeping covenants cool again’: Exploring the stories of ex-ex-Latter-day Saints

Second in the series (apparently) (March 13, 2024) : Coming back to church after working through history questions

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“Why fight this anymore?” Bennett Borden remembers thinking. Due to his attraction to other men, he concluded at the time, “I know that the gospel is true, but there is nothing I can do to live it.”

That led him to step away from his faith. “Look, I’m gay. I can’t do anything about it.”

Julio Ospina likewise told his father he wasn’t coming back to church, right after deciding he was “not going to be able to love a woman.”

His father hugged him and said, “I know you will be back.”

Bennett and Julio’s stories are part of a growing collection of personal accounts being shared about returning to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This includes a number of stories of LGBTQ+-identifying people coming back to church.

Again, I am glad to see this.  The "gay people have no place in the Church" narrative deserves some reconsideration.

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Leaving something they loved

Linnette Bakow recalls how much she loved her faith — “to throw that out would have really been devastating to me.” But it was equally discouraging to imagine what she worried at the time would be “living a life without love.” After feeling “ecstatically happy” in a relationship with another woman, she remembers beginning to feel a growing “division” with her faith.

Julio likewise loved the church dearly growing up — the temple, the Book of Mormon, seminary. “Nobody had to force me to go.” So, his announcement of stepping away from the faith surprised those who knew him best.

“Mom, there’s nothing I can do,” Julio said. “I’m sorry, but I decided to be happy.”

“I was in love and I was enjoying all these amazing feelings. I thought I had found happiness,” he reflected — this, despite assuming his long-held dreams of having a family were “done with. … It’s not happening anymore.”

His best friend, his sister, “cried a lot. She couldn’t understand.” Yet the family never abandoned him, Julio said. “They were always there when I needed them.”

This is where we Latter-day Saints need to be. 

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Wanting more

Linnette said she had “never felt anything like” these early relationships, which felt “very fulfilling.” But she kept thinking about something she learned at Brigham Young University about the “magnificence of an eternal relationship,” where two people “grow together” emotionally and spiritually and “become one with the Savior” in eternal “oneness.”

“This oneness is what I wanted,” she said. Over time, she began to realize she wasn’t finding that outside her faith.

Julio likewise struggled to find meaningful love and connection, eventually starting to think this path was “probably not” where he would find that deeper closeness. “I was tired of the parties,” he said, recalling the day he asked, “What am I doing with my life?”

“I wanted more,” Julio said. “I knew of the Spirit. I knew of being in a temple. I knew of Heavenly Father answering my prayers. I knew of his hand on my shoulder.”

Bennett arrived at a similar longing in his late 40s, even with great success professionally, lots of friends and a loving partner. “I had all the things,” he said. But in a 2017 talk, he said, “There was this piece of me inside that simply wasn’t happy.”

Bennett remembers being invited to the house of a Latter-day Saint family member with young children for a party to celebrate their finishing the Book of Mormon for the first time. Everyone was dressed as their favorite person from the scriptures. “There was never any pressure,” he reflects, with the impact coming from “simply being around them” and experiencing “the love they shared, the spirit that was in their home.”

“I walked out of that room and went back to my Mercedes, fancy suits and a life that felt empty by comparison.”

Not long after, Bennett’s relationship also ended. Amidst the sadness and grief, he began to recognize an “ache and longing” that had been “growing for a few years in his heart.”

“I missed the gospel.”

There are surely those who presently don't "miss the gospel," and that needs to be respected as well.

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Insurmountable barriers?

Bennett soon reconnected with a close friend of many years, Becky, whose relationship had also recently ended. They consoled each other, and began talking about what they wanted most out of life.

The possibility of returning to the church came up. Although he had continued praying after stepping away from the faith, Bennett said, “I couldn’t seem to figure out how to live my life and be a member of the church at the same time. Those two things seemed at odds and the path back to membership had mountains that seemed impossible to climb.”

Becky felt similarly stymied. “I had the desire to believe again, but couldn’t reconcile my budding faith with the knowledge of my sexual orientation.”

“If the church was true,” she said, “then something had to be different about my life in order for me to be a part of it.

“I couldn’t see how it would work, so I didn’t think it was possible.”

This is a fairly common theme.  

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Reaching for more

This sense of impossibility is common in many situations, according to professional clinicians. Jeff Bennion, a marriage and family therapist in Salt Lake City, describes a sense of feeling “trapped” in clients coming to therapy for different reasons, where they “can’t see any way to escape.”

“One of the most exciting things I get to do as a therapist is open people’s minds and hearts up to their multiplicity of options,” he said. Compared to the idea that “there is no other way,” this Latter-day Saint therapist shared his reassurance that “it’s God who liberates the captive, opens up highways from the deep, and promises unending abundance.”

Scholar Ty Mansfield is part of the research team conducting the most in-depth study to examine healthy and sustainable life paths for sexual minorities. He points out that while having a sense of inner congruence is important, “everyone experiences conflicting feelings, desires and values to one degree or another in one domain of life or another.”

This is an important point.  The "conflicting feelings, desires and values" are not limited to the sphere of sexual orientation.

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“Part of the important growth we experience in this life,” he says, “is learning how to sort through all of those feelings, desires and values, figuring out which to prioritize and how to relate healthily to all of them.”

I am curious as to how, or if, setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity can be a helpful component of this process.

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This “dissonance between where we are and where we want to be” is something Linnette now sees as a “good thing.”

Despite our natural tendency to “blame those incongruent feelings on all sorts of things,” her own experience was that these feelings hold the potential to “lead us to where we need to go.”

As Linnette “started keeping the commandments one by one,” she recalls becoming “happier and happier” as the dissonance simultaneously began to dissipate. “I could easily see the contrast in my life. I was experiencing real joy in my life. … That is how I knew I was on the right path.”

"Keeping the commandments" would seem to refer, in this context, to the Law of Chastity (constraining sexual expression to its parameters), but just as much to various other commandments regarding service, worship, prayer, study, and so on.

The article is long, but it's very much worth a read.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Pyreaux]

Gaining peace is far better than facing life's problems without it. It's exciting to hear people who've felt it too. Recently a peer at Our Savior's Church told me how one minute he was in the fetal position in the shower, crying out to God, when the next he felt great. I must say I know exactly how he felt, nothing in my life changed, I simply could endure it all. I was comforted, I'd give just about anything to feel it all the time.

Edited June 1 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

On 5/31/2024 at 2:44 PM, smac97 said:

I am curious as to how, or if, setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity can be a helpful component of this process.

Just stop.

[ZealouslyStriving]

 

 

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

 

 

“When I grew up you were either gay or straight……….or bisexual.”

Thanks for the grudging acceptance of bisexuals at the end there friendo and then throwing the rest of the community under the bus. When you grew up there were transgender, asexual, non-binary, and lots of other people. They were just shoved into the B of the then LGB community and were largely ignored.

Then while complaining about how accepting the community is of various sexual minorities you imply aren’t valid you whine that they don’t represent you specifically. I thought as a bisexual I would never use this phrase but it fits too well: PICK A LANE!

Also love the whinging about how commercial it has gotten. Um……yeah, do you think the term rainbow capitalism is a compliment? It is a good thing in the sense that capitalism thinks we are a significant enough demographic to appeal to but nobody trusts it. It is also an appeal to go back to the good old days when we were *checks notes* even more discriminated against and the prophets called us perverts. You know, the good old days.

[california boy]

55 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

 

 

I am really curious what compelled you to post this video. What did he say that you thought was important to share it?

[ZealouslyStriving]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

“When I grew up you were either gay or straight……….or bisexual.”

Thanks for the grudging acceptance of bisexuals at the end there friendo and then throwing the rest of the community under the bus. When you grew up there were transgender, asexual, non-binary, and lots of other people. They were just shoved into the B of the then LGB community and were largely ignored.

Then while complaining about how accepting the community is of various sexual minorities you imply aren’t valid you whine that they don’t represent you specifically. I thought as a bisexual I would never use this phrase but it fits too well: PICK A LANE!

Also love the whinging about how commercial it has gotten. Um……yeah, do you think the term rainbow capitalism is a compliment? It is a good thing in the sense that capitalism thinks we are a significant enough demographic to appeal to but nobody trusts it. It is also an appeal to go back to the good old days when we were *checks notes* even more discriminated against and the prophets called us perverts. You know, the good old days.

😳 Wow! So divergence from the talking points is pretty unacceptable. Y'all can't have other opinions in your movement?

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am really curious what compelled you to post this video. What did he say that you thought was important to share it?

It's a topic about being a faithful Latter-day Saint and gay- thought it fit. But judging by Nehor's and your reaction, there is no room for dissent from the party line.

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

It's a topic about being a faithful Latter-day Saint and gay- thought it fit. But judging by Nehor's and your reaction, there is no room for dissent from the party line.

California Boy said:

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am really curious what compelled you to post this video. What did he say that you thought was important to share it?

He only asked a question and said nothing about the video or what was said in it or even how he felt about it.  

Edited June 2 by Rain

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

😳 Wow! So divergence from the talking points is pretty unacceptable. Y'all can't have other opinions in your movement?

Holy reading incomprehension Batman!

I am pointing out that this guy is punching down and trying to exclude others from the community while whining about others supposedly punching down so his voice isn’t heard.

You can complain about a lack of inclusivity towards you while trying to exclude others if you want but people are generally going to roll their eyes and ignore you. 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

😳 Wow! So divergence from the talking points is pretty unacceptable. Y'all can't have other opinions in your movement?

I only asked why you posted it. You didn’t say a thing about why you posted it. 
 

I am all for diversity of opinion. What opinion did you find interesting?  And why?  Just curious, not critical 

[CV75]

On 5/31/2024 at 3:44 PM, smac97 said:

I am curious as to how, or if, setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity can be a helpful component of this process.

This section of the article is about "feelings, desires and values" or the longing for happiness, and is not about identity. It concludes with the individual recalling that she became happier and happier when she started keeping the commandments one by one. This has nothing to do with identity, which is a very complex developmental process and rarely a single focus. Even identifying primarily as a child of God takes practice from childhood, and does not come without feeling His love and a degree of immersive discipleship. 

[The Nehor]

I do worry that two of the stories end up with gay and/or lesbian people marrying heterosexually. I mean, it can work but this is really setting it up as a kind of goal and sending that message has the potential to hurt people. A lot.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“When I grew up you were either gay or straight……….or bisexual.”

Thanks for the grudging acceptance of bisexuals at the end there friendo and then throwing the rest of the community under the bus. When you grew up there were transgender, asexual, non-binary, and lots of other people. They were just shoved into the B of the then LGB community and were largely ignored.

Then while complaining about how accepting the community is of various sexual minorities you imply aren’t valid you whine that they don’t represent you specifically. I thought as a bisexual I would never use this phrase but it fits too well: PICK A LANE!

Also love the whinging about how commercial it has gotten. Um……yeah, do you think the term rainbow capitalism is a compliment? It is a good thing in the sense that capitalism thinks we are a significant enough demographic to appeal to but nobody trusts it. It is also an appeal to go back to the good old days when we were *checks notes* even more discriminated against and the prophets called us perverts. You know, the good old days.

And that last paragraph is exactly why they have pride day.  Thanks for your insight!

[smac97]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

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I am curious as to how, or if, setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity can be a helpful component of this process.

This section of the article is about "feelings, desires and values" or the longing for happiness, and is not about identity.

I think many forms of "identity" can arise from, and/or be heavily influenced by, one's "feelings, desires and values."  

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

It concludes with the individual recalling that she became happier and happier when she started keeping the commandments one by one.

That is sort of my point.  I think some folks with same-sex attraction feel some real tension between their "identity" as Latter-day Saints and their "identity" as a gay person.  This is particularly so since the latter may carry notions engaging in sexual behaviors as a part of "being" or "expressing" their "authentic self."  There sure seems to be societal voices that scoff at the idea of constraining one's sexual behaviors to the parameters established by the Law of Chastity.  Consequently, some folks may feel that "setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity" in favor of a more important one (that of being a child of God, a disciple of Jesus Christ, a Latter-day Saint) could help alleviate some or all of the above-referenced tension.

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

This has nothing to do with identity, which is a very complex developmental process and rarely a single focus. 

I respectfully disagree.  I think that "feelings, desires and values" can have a lot to do with one's "identity."

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

Even identifying primarily as a child of God takes practice from childhood, and does not come without feeling His love and a degree of immersive discipleship. 

I agree.  And part of that "immersive discipleship" is obedience to the commandments of God, including the Law of Chastity.  Such obedience requires resisting inclinations to engage in behaviors prohibited by the Law of Chastity.  Such resistance may be facilitated by setting aside or subordinating one's sexual "identity" (which is, historically speaking, a very new concept) in favor of a more important identity.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 6/1/2024 at 11:20 PM, The Nehor said:

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I am curious as to how, or if, setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity can be a helpful component of this process.

Just stop.

I think this is an important topic, and one that merits discussion and evaluation.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do worry that two of the stories end up with gay and/or lesbian people marrying heterosexually. I mean, it can work but this is really setting it up as a kind of goal and sending that message has the potential to hurt people. A lot.

Messaging that attempts to justify or rationalize violation of the Law of Chastity has some real potential to harm people.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think many forms of "identity" can arise from, and/or be heavily influenced by, one's "feelings, desires and values."  

That is sort of my point.  I think some folks with same-sex attraction feel some real tension between their "identity" as Latter-day Saints and their "identity" as a gay person.  This is particularly so since the latter may carry notions engaging in sexual behaviors as a part of "being" or "expressing" their "authentic self."  There sure seems to be societal voices that scoff at the idea of constraining one's sexual behaviors to the parameters established by the Law of Chastity.  Consequently, some folks may feel that "setting aside or subordinating one's sexual orientation/identity" in favor of a more important one (that of being a child of God, a disciple of Jesus Christ, a Latter-day Saint) could help alleviate some or all of the above-referenced tension.

I respectfully disagree.  I think that "feelings, desires and values" can have a lot to do with one's "identity."

I agree.  And part of that "immersive discipleship" is obedience to the commandments of God, including the Law of Chastity.  Such obedience requires resisting inclinations to engage in behaviors prohibited by the Law of Chastity.  Such resistance may be facilitated by setting aside or subordinating one's sexual "identity" (which is, historically speaking, a very new concept) in favor of a more important identity.

Thanks,

-Smac

Qualifying things as “heavily influenced” still means that identity is far more complex and when you consider all the influences and components, it’s hard to measure the relative weight of all the factors and influences. If something is pathological of course, it is easily identified.

Gay people can keep the commandments one by one and still identify as [you name it]. Identifying primarily and consciously as a child of God, beyond saying or singing it (not that there’s anything wrong with that) doesn’t develop until after we keep the commandments one by one for a while, and then even after we already reap the benefits of spiritual happiness from religious observance.

For example, how have you set aside your sexual “identity” in favor of a more important identity (which I assume is a child of God)? Are you more or less [you name the sexual identity] than you were before you repented? Have the feelings and desires increased or decreased since you repented, or have they become appropriately stronger or appropriately weaker in the right context? Or are they fluid without any apparent reason?

Once the choice to obey has been made, I would say the effectiveness in keeping the commandments comes by resisting temptation rather than resisting inclination – we are all inclined to sin. The natural man, baptized and confirmed or not, is an enemy to God unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit.

For me identifying as a child of God is one of the most intentional things I’ve ever done, and it wasn’t to disidentify as something else as a means to find happiness. It came after striving for discipleship, which even children who have been taught (correctly) all their lives that they are a child of God have to discover as they mature.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

rationalize violation of the Law of Chastity has some real potential to harm people

For two gay people in a committed relationship can you describe in detail the harm done? Is it all in the next life in your opinion? Or is there real tangible harm done to them in this life?

[smac97]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:40 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

 

From the automated YouTube transcript of Bro. Schleicher's comments (cleaned up and abridged) :

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0:01 As someone who used to participate in 0:03 Pride celebrations I find it has now 0:06 become too commercial. 0:09 Unfortunately if you're not somebody who 0:12 doesn't wear the rainbow flag you're 0:14 viewed as not an ally.  This troubles me.

This is a legitimate point.  I love Christmas, but I have some reservations about how it has "become too commercial."  And yet I would find it problematic if someone were to come along and say that I need to be happy with, and go along with, these commercialized aspects and depictions of Christmas or else I am not an authentic Christian.

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0:19 So instead we must ask ourselves what 0:21 would Jesus do. 

Always a good idea.

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Many members of the 0:24 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day 0:26 Saints participate in Pride celebrations 0:29 seeing it as a way to manifest their 0:32 love and understanding that our prophet 0:36 and apostles urge all of us to show 0:39 towards the 0:40 LGBTQ individuals.  {They view this as a} 0:46 significant way to embrace diversity 0:49 within the context of faith. 

I think this is a fair and charitable characterization.

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My issue is 0:53 LGBTQ what the heck.  It's now turned into 0:56 A-B-C-D I don't know.  When I grew up 0:59 you were either gay or straight, or 1:02 bisexual.  There were none of these 1:04 letters, and this is why Pride has become 1:08 a hard time, I guess you could say, or 1:11 it's created some tumultuous feelings 1:14 within my own feeling and viewpoints on 1:18 how we should view this. 

I think many people share this sense of confusion.  I think this stems from the seeming lack of boundaries or limiting principles in the movement.  Consider, for example, this Quora comment:

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Why do we keep adding letters to LGBTQIA+? What do you think the '+' is for?

 

I am a homosexual guy and, while I am not an activist of any kind and I don't cling onto the symbols and emblems used around the acronym I am one of those who think the acronym should stay LGB.

I am of the opinion that, for some reason, young people have come to sort of fetishise the idea of marginalization. They keep looking for the slightest difference in personality traits to then turn them into a whole identity. They are looking to feel special and, the idea of possessing the slightest difference in personality is exacerbated as a whole identity that makes them feel different to the majority.

A community is, by definition, "a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common."  If the "community" reflected in the acronym{s} lack limiting principles, then it becomes difficult, maybe even impossible, to define or quantify what that community is, what "identity" is signifies, and so on.

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{W}hile individuals may 1:26 engage in Pride celebrations with their 1:29 purest intent, 1:30 it's critical to consider the broader 1:33 message sent to our younger and more 1:37 impressionable members of the Church, or 1:39 any organization, for that 1:43 matter. 

This is also a legitimate point.  For example, consider this comment from the above Quora link:

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What does the K stand for in LGBTQIAPK+?

 

I imagine it stands for “kink”. BDSM and the LGBT community have seen some overlap in the past, in particular with ““leather daddies” and such, which is probably why it’s included by some.

However, I and others believe that it shouldn’t be included in the acronym. Kink is not inherently non-cis or non-straight, and including it can feed into the stereotype of queer people being ““sexual deviants”. BDSM is fine in a community of its own but it’s strange and unecessary to include it with sexual orientations and gender identities.

Is "K" a part of the acronym or not?  If not, why not?  If it is, then Bro. Schleicher's concern about "messaging" being conveyed to "our younger and more impressionable members of the Church."

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What does our engagement in Pride 1:48 signify or {} say about our own 1:53 adherence to the doctrine of the Church. 

This is, I suppose, a question to be answered by each of us individually.  Some seem to feel there is a conflict between the two ("our engagement in Pride" and "adherence to the doctrine{s} of the Church").  That's a reasonable point of view, IMO.

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1:56 For me as a gay member of the Church 1:59 Pride month often feels conflicted.  It's 2:03 a time when I observe many claiming to 2:07 represent my interest showing a lack of 2:11 respect for my religious belief. During 2:14 Pride month, I face a 2:19 dichotomy: either align with the views 2:23 {} I do not share or risk being 2:27 labeled as a betray{er} of my own 2:32 community. 

I think Bro. Schleicher is not alone in having concerns about this sort of thing.  For example, in this YouTube video, an sportscaster, Paul Murray, declares that a Muslim player's refusal to wear a Pride jersey in the AFLW’s Pride round on the grounds of religious belief is "a very strange thing" and is "very obviously a middle finger to" the LGBT community.

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You know, I've heard from so 2:35 many of you in the comments when I 2:37 shared this yesterday in an Instagram 2:40 post of support, and I also heard from 2:44 some who don't support it, and I respect 2:47 that I always bring it back to what 2:49 would Jesus do.  {} 3:00  As members of the Church of Jesus Christ 3:02 of Latter-day Saints we are called to 3:04 show 3:05 love, a directive deeply embedded in our 3:09 own Gospel.  The Gospel preaches 3:12 unconditional love, the kind that are 3:15 Savior 3:17 amplified. It is perhaps a time to 3:21 rethink how we can best embody and 3:25 convey these principles of charity and 3:28 love, 3:30 which are core to our beliefs, without 3:35 necessarily aligning with a movement 3:38 that may 3:39 contradict other aspects of our doctrine. 3:43

"{H}ow we can best embody and convey these principles of charity and love ... without necessarily aligning with a movement that may contradict other aspects of our doctrine."

That's a fair point.

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Now I must be clear Elder Christopherson 3:46 came out and said quite a few years ago 3:49 it's okay for members to display the 3:53 flag it's okay for members to support 3:56 LGBTQ plus friends and family. 4:01 But for 4:02 me, I have to have a balance.  And I know 4:06 that's kind of weird coming from the gay 4:07 man who joined the Church in a time when 4:11 so many are leaving over this issue, 4:13 which is what breaks my heart.  {} In the 5:03 Scriptures it is said that charity the 5:06 pure love Of 5:07 Christ {} “rejoiceth not in iniquity 5:12 but rejoiceth in the truth.”  1 Corinthians 5:16 13:6.  This principle guides all of us to 5:20 love and respect those who are different, 5:24 yet it also reminds us that true 5:28 Christlike love does not encourage what 5:33 we perceive as spiritual harm. 

"Christlike love does not encourage what we perceive as spiritual harm."

I think many Latter-day Saints - and many other Christians outside our faith - agree with this, but are perhaps hesitant to say so because it will elicit accusations of bigotry and hatred.

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We are 5:38 thus in challenged to find a balance, 5:42 expressing {} guidance, love and 5:47 understanding while remaining true to 5:50 our faith and its 5:52 teachings.  Again I must say if you choose 5:55 to support Pride, I support 5:58 you, if you choose not to I support 6:02 you, because my choice and journey isn't 6:06 necessarily for everybody.  [] In conclusion, the participation of Pride 6:39 events by members of the Church of Jesus 6:41 Christ of Latter-day Saints raises 6:43 complex questions about how to express 6:47 love and acceptance without {compromising on} 6:52 our religious beliefs.  It's a personal 6:56 journey for each member to navigate, one 7:00 that requires interpretation empathy and 7:04 a deep understanding of the teachings of 7:07 Jesus Christ and the doctrine of our 7:11 Church.  

These are poignant comments. 

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I choose not to support Pride 8:09 Month.  And that has been something I've 8:13 been coming up with for quite some 8:15 time.  And I know {} that this is a personal 8:23 decision that each and every one needs 8:25 to make, it's not for me to decide.  It's 8:29 required me to read a lot of James 1:5, 8:32 if any of us lack wisdom, we need to take it 8:35 to God, and that's exactly what I did, I 8:38 took it to God I took it to 8:40 him.  {} I was very much into supporting it, 9:09 but it just didn't feel like it aligned 9:12 with what I was studying, especially when 9:16 I'm putting together my Come Follow Me 9:18 lessons for my YouTube channel.  It just 9:20 didn't seem to align with what I was 9:23 studying and what I was sharing with all 9:26 of you, and that's where I had to take it 9:28 to heart, and I really had to get on my 9:30 knees and ask God and say I need your 9:34 help with this. 

I think many others harbor these sentiments.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

59 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

For two gay people in a committed relationship can you describe in detail the harm done?

That's a pretty vague and broad scenario.  And my answers would presuppose the Latter-day Saint paradigm.  Are you okay with that?

59 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is it all in the next life in your opinion?

No.

59 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Or is there real tangible harm done to them in this life?

See above.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Gay people can keep the commandments one by one and still identify as [you name it].  Identifying primarily and consciously as a child of God, beyond saying or singing it (not that there’s anything wrong with that) doesn’t develop until after we keep the commandments one by one for a while, and then even after we already reap the benefits of spiritual happiness from religious observance.

I agree.  

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

For example, how have you set aside your sexual “identity” in favor of a more important identity (which I assume is a child of God)?

As I have previously suggested, "'All sexual identity is a late 19th-century Western social construct.'"  For myself, I reject the notion of "sexual 'identity,'" so I have not needed to set it aside.  

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Once the choice to obey has been made, I would say the effectiveness in keeping the commandments comes by resisting temptation rather than resisting inclination – we are all inclined to sin.

I agree.  But I think some who espouse the notion of "sexual identity" will dispute that it amounts to a state of being, as something more than an "inclination" to be "resisted."  This is, in my view, one of the core sources of tension here.  "Sexual identity" is something you are, whereas sexual attraction is something you experience, and either allow or disallow.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

The natural man, baptized and confirmed or not, is an enemy to God unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

For me identifying as a child of God is one of the most intentional things I’ve ever done, and it wasn’t to disidentify as something else as a means to find happiness.

Okay.  Others, however, may choose to set aside or subordinate an identity which, in their view, creates tension and conflict.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

It came after striving for discipleship, which even children who have been taught (correctly) all their lives that they are a child of God have to discover as they mature.

Good stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That's a pretty vague and broad scenario.  And my answers would presuppose the Latter-day Saint paradigm.  Are you okay with that?

No.

See above.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes, I am wondering what harm is done from your perspective. In detail.

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

the "community" reflected in the acronym{s} lack limiting principles, then it becomes difficult, maybe even impossible, to define or quantify what that community is, what "identity" is signifies, and so on.

So?  Why is this an issue if the community truly (generally speaking) wants to be inclusive?

Edited June 3 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

As I have previously suggested, "'All sexual identity is a late 19th-century Western social construct.'" 

Which is completely wrong. The current terms are such a construct but other terms and constructs have existed.

Also you can’t convince me that people who participated in, for example, the molly house culture of Britain in the 1700s didn’t believe they had some kind of shared sexual identity.

You harp on this point endlessly even though it doesn’t mean what you want to think it means.