The Book of Mormon: A Latter-day Guide to Manhood

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

So, you don't believe that the above are toxic?

I will firmly go on record, that sexual assaulting women, unnecessary risk taking, being prone to violence, and being a bully are incredibly toxic.  Even in the "slightest."  They have no place in "manhood" or "masculinity."

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

How about showing some manhood and not care if someone disagrees with you and just not post because it looks like whining that someone dared, to be blunt?  

Raingirl uses the down vote for disagreement with everyone.  Most people don’t (most people don’t use it at all). I use it only for very strong disagreement, but there are no rules that say you only have to use the downvote a certain way. 

I look on her as a good friend and just yesterday or the day before I got a downvote from her.  It is not my first one either.  I could see why she disagreed with that one, her vote was not something to get all overdramatic about or even send a note asking her to explain herself, lol.

 

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Doctor Steuss]

1 minute ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Did you bother to read what I wrote underneath? Choosing the most blatantly obvious bad behavior from the list and implying I advocate for it is discussing in bad faith.

That being said, merely flirting with women is seen as assault or harassment in some woke minds.

Yes, I read what you wrote.  I even quoted it in what I wrote.  I'll even quote it again.

Quote

"*What happens is anything that, even in the slightest, that hints at the above is seen as toxic.

Those "blatantly obvious bad behavior(s)" were part of the above, that you lamented are seen as toxic.

Those "woke minds" (context free thought-terminating snarl word de jure duly noted) are usually women, who are feeling harassed by the so-called "merely flirting."  I'll never understand why people put so much effort in trying to justify their behavior that impacts others, instead of just changing.

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Yes, I read what you wrote.  I even quoted it in what I wrote.  I'll even quote it again.

Those "blatantly obvious bad behavior(s)" were part of the above, that you lamented are seen as toxic.

Those "woke minds" (context free thought-terminating snarl word de jure duly noted) are usually women, who are feeling harassed by the so-called "merely flirting."  I'll never understand why people put so much effort in trying to justify their behavior that impacts others, instead of just changing.

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Doctor Steuss]

12 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Example #1

"Proper Fatherhood: Education of Children"

"I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father..." (1 Nephi 1:1)

"Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it." (Enos1:1)

"And it came to pass that he had three sons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding;" (Mosiah 1:2)

*Since when did Fathers abdicate responsibility for the proper instruction of their children? PTA's and school boards are filled women. Who generally goes to parent teacher conferences? The mothers.

Christian fathers need to assert themselves back into the education of their children, not fearing what the woke mob might try to say or do about it.

What area of the country do you live in where men being part of the PTA, and attending parent teacher conferences is attacked by the so-called "woke mob"?

I've been a member of the PTA/PTO of my son's schools several times.  I'm the primary person that goes to open house, parent teacher meetings, etc.  At those events, I see plenty of fellow male/father/grandfather representation.  I've never, once, gotten any form of pushback from anyone.  I've even taken time off work a few times to volunteer in the classroom and read books (I love reading kids' books to children) when he was in elementary school.

Then again, I'm pretty left-leaning, and an agnostic, so maybe the so-called "woke mob" doesn't target me because I'm one of them.  (*que ominous peel of thunder*)

[Doctor Steuss]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So flirting is disallowed.

If a woman finds it uncomfortable, and harassing, yes.

Quote

Shall we return to arranged marriage?

Tell me more about this bad faith thing.  It sounds interesting.

[Raingirl]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

How about showing some manhood and not care if someone disagrees with you and just not post because it looks like whining that someone dared, to be blunt?  

Raingirl uses the down vote for disagreement with everyone rather than writing an additional post to say “nope, think you are wrong” or whatever.  Most people don’t (most people don’t use it at all). I use it only for very strong disagreement, but there are no rules that say you only have to use the downvote a certain way. 

I look on her as a good friend and just yesterday or the day before I got a downvote from her.  It is not my first one either.  I could see why she disagreed with that one, her vote was not something to get all overdramatic about or even send a note asking her to explain herself, lol.

 

What’s interesting is that none of the women have ever whined about a downvote, yet several men have harassed me behind the scenes for downvotes. I guess the women here have the capacity to accept disagreement, while some of the men feel threatened by it. 
 

 

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

What area of the country do you live in where men being part of the PTA, and attending parent teacher conferences is attacked by the so-called "woke mob"?

I've been a member of the PTA/PTO of my son's schools several times.  I'm the primary person that goes to open house, parent teacher meetings, etc.  At those events, I see plenty of fellow male/father/grandfather representation.  I've never, once, gotten any form of pushback from anyone.  I've even taken time off work a few times to volunteer in the classroom and read books (I love reading kids' books to children) when he was in elementary school.

Then again, I'm pretty left-leaning, and an agnostic, so maybe the so-called "woke mob" doesn't target me because I'm one of them.  (*que ominous peel of thunder*)

Me thinks he's been listening to some podcasts or following people that think everyone is "woke" out there.

[MrShorty]

Re: Example #1.

I think it is extremely important for fathers to teach their children, but I also think it is extremely important for mothers to teach their children. IMO, nothing is lost from these verses if we make them include both parents:

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my parents.

Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my parents that they were just people -- for they taught me in their language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord -- and blessed be the name of my God for it.

And it came to pass that they had three sons, and they called their names Mosiah, Helorum, and Helaman. And they caused that they should be taught in all the language of their parents/ancestors, that thereby they might become men of understanding.

Which isn't to say that I don't think there are problems in our society where men too often abdicate their responsibility to teach their children (especially when they are young). I think there is real value in helping men learn parenting skills and encouraging them to take on their fair share of childcare and teaching. At the end of the day, I think the best outcome is getting fathers and mothers to see themselves as equal partners in raising their children,* and not overemphasizing the role of one or the other in teaching and raising the next generation.

* -- naturally, this assumes there are no abusive or problematic issues with either mother's or father's parenting style. In abusive cases, obviously, one parent may need to do things (possibly extreme things) to protect a child from the other parent.

[Doctor Steuss]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Me thinks he's been listening to some podcasts or following people that think everyone is "woke" out there.

Incidentally, men taking an active role in childrearing is on his previously posted list of woke stuff that is anathema.

Seriously though, if someone is finding meaningful ways to be a more engaging, caring, and devoted father within the text of the Book of Mormon, I think that's awesome, and fully encourage it.  Even if it's the woke thing to do.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Last year as I was reading through the Book of Mormon again, I was inspired to really notice all the father-son(s) dynamics, I then realized that beyond being the "keystone of our religion" and our "latter-day survival guide", (it can be used as a "How To Manual For Manhood"). I believe Mormon was inspired to include the things he did because the Lord knew in the days it would come forward masculinity and manhood would be under attack and the accounts in the Book of Mormon can help to counter that trend. The Book of Mormon addresses:

*how to be a good husband (Lehi)

*how to be a good father (Lehi, Jacob, Enos, King Benjamin, Alma(s), Helaman ben Alma, etc...)

*how to be a good mentor (Captain Helaman)

*how to be a good friend/companion (Ammon ben Mosiah, Alma ben Alma)

*how to be a good leader and citizen (Chief Captain Moroni)

This is a great thread to demonstrate that "scripture" is really just written by humans and really no supernatural being is involved.  The Bible reflects this and is simply full of directives that were suitable for trying to tell people that lived in a bronze age thousands of years ago how to live.  Even believer in the Bible reject much of the old Testament. Historically we have lived in a male centric world and that is what these books reflect. Same for the Book of Mormon.  Woman in the 19th century had little to no rights in most of the world and certainly that was true in Western NY when the BoM was written.  And made up stuff and made up by  men.

[MustardSeed]

It seems as though perhaps some people are not aware of the difference between OK flirting and not OK flirting. 

Respectful displays of interest are generally not a problem for most women even if we are not interested in return.  
 

Disrespectful:  (common):  persistence when the interested party has become aware of disinterest on the other side. 

disrespectful: cat calls and whistles, hollering or calling out with comments on a persons appearance from any distance further than 6 feet.  

disrespectful:  grabbing and groping

disrespectful: staring 

disrespectful:  moving to touch sexually without explicit consent 

 

Just in case there’s confusion (and there is, because one of these happened to me on Wed) we can start with these.   

 

Edited April 19, 2024 by MustardSeed

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

When traditional ideas of masculinity and manhood (protector, provider, presider, etc...) is called "toxic" I believe there is an issue...

Well it can be toxic.  Women have been oppressed for most of human history.  ANd while I do think western society is going a bit to far and there is a lot of simple man "hating" out there directed at men, just because they are men, many of the "traditional" ideas of masculinity have been used in an abusive way against women.

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

And before THAT gets the worst possible interpretation, I am not talking about Machismo.

I think you are digging yourself a deep hole here.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I can better address womanhood being under attack, if you can clarify what those attacks are.

It is interesting to me you feel that attacks on manhood are easily identified, but you apparently need someone else to tell you how womanhood is being attacked.

Maybe it’s like when one only really notices all the tan vans in the road when you get a tan van (we have a tan minivan).

[Calm]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm really not that bent out of shape about it, I just figured she needed acknowledgment, since it happens so often.

Then it would be wise not to overdramatize by claiming she sees you as the “worst person in the world” as that looks much, much more like sulking and whining about someone not liking you*** than not being bent out of shape and actually caring about her knowing you cared enough to acknowledge her as if she needed that (rather patronizing that actually)

***raingirl’s downvotes are disagreement, not dislike in case anyone thinks I am implying she doesn’t like zealous.

Edited April 19, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Raingirl said:

e, yet several men have harassed me behind the scenes for downvotes

Seriously?  Wow!

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

It is interesting to me you feel that attacks on manhood are easily identified, but you apparently need someone else to tell you how womanhood is being attacked.

Maybe it’s like when one only really notices all the tan vans in the road when you get a tan van (we have a tan minivan).

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So... no clarification for me? 😕 

Have you asked me to clarify anything?

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you asked me to clarify anything?

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Yet, you went out of your way to quote my post and essentially say I'm clueless.

I believe I more of less said you said you were clueless.

I am more interested in why you have put so much effort into attacks on manhood but appear as if you didn’t want to waste your effort on considering what might be attacks on womanhood and so asked someone else to do your work for you.***  Conveys significant lack of interest.

I admit to being a bit bored so may be distracting myself by reading too much into word choice and what you aren’t saying, but I will also admit I find the topic as presented overwrought and boring.

****I could understand if you felt limited in perception, so only posted a few ideas and then asked for more ideas, but using “clarify” as your choice of words conveys the sense you don’t see any yourself….which is remarkable in my view if you spent so much time looking for attacks on tradition in our culture, since many see attacks on “real manhood” and attacks on “real womanhood” going hand in hand.

Edited April 19, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe I more of less said you said you were clueless.

If by attacks on womanhood your mean dudes dressing as women and taking over women's sports... I am in total agreement.

If you mean by attacks telling women that staying at home to raise your children and be homemakers is something to be ashamed of.... I am in total agreement.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Amazing! The same day I felt prompted to share about the Book of Mormon as a guide to manhood Ward Radio releases this:

 

 

Edited April 19, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Last year as I was reading through the Book of Mormon again, I was inspired to really notice all the father-son(s) dynamics, I then realized that beyond being the "keystone of our religion" and our "latter-day survival guide", (it can be used as a "How To Manual For Manhood"). I believe Mormon was inspired to include the things he did because the Lord knew in the days it would come forward masculinity and manhood would be under attack and the accounts in the Book of Mormon can help to counter that trend. The Book of Mormon addresses:

*how to be a good husband (Lehi)

*how to be a good father (Lehi, Jacob, Enos, King Benjamin, Alma(s), Helaman ben Alma, etc...)

*how to be a good mentor (Captain Helaman)

*how to be a good friend/companion (Ammon ben Mosiah, Alma ben Alma)

*how to be a good leader and citizen (Chief Captain Moroni)

Is there anything in there on how to be a good woman, mother, or wife?  What prominent characters in the BoM are women?

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

All scriptures are specifically directed at men, aren't they?  

Of course not. We have *checks notes* one revelation given to Emma Smith.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

When traditional ideas of masculinity and manhood (protector, provider, presider, etc...) is called "toxic" I believe there is an issue...

And before THAT gets the worst possible interpretation, I am not talking about Machismo.

The traditional of course referring to the 1950s and 1960s because masculinity was not viewed the same way before that. Then we all watched action movies and here we are.