The Book of Mormon: A Latter-day Guide to Manhood

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are many books on it, and not all that agree with the books you've listed.  If there is one thing I learned from getting my degree in history it's that you can support any argument you want to make.  You just have to pick which evidence to share and which to leave out. 

You really do have to read books with different biases to get the full and most accurate picture.  If you are only getting your information from Horowitz or those who view things similarly, there will be holes in your historical view.

I believe that Ezra Taft Benson was a prophet, but like most in the church leadership and first presidency at the time he served in washington (he was censured multiple times for saying some of the things he said over the pulpit in GC), I don't agree with a lot of his politics.  He was caught up in the red scare like many people that age were, and his embracing of ultra-conservatism and the propaganda that went along with it was his own doing and had nothing to do with the gospel of Christ.

So true about all of us, what I put in bold.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Nvrmnd

A great way to earn the trust and respect of others is to admit when one has made a mistake, no matter how little or big, like not reading something throughly before posting it, thinking it said something it doesn’t really or that one has misunderstood what others were talking about.  Wanting to just start over because something hasn’t gone the way one wants without doing the above is a great way to repeat the errors.  

And insisting that it is others who haven’t given one a fair break or who are constantly misreading one without accepting responsibility for not being careful in expressing oneself is unlikely to convince anyone to change their interpretations of what one said, especially if the same sort of comments keep being made by one.  If one is being constantly misinterpreted by multiple people, perhaps the issue isn’t always with others….

Edited April 20, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

hackles come up when someone only sees the harm that affects them and those like them but can't see (or don't care about) the harm that is happening to others.

And it’s not like unless one addresses everyone’s needs in the same post every time one starts or joins a discussion, one is going to be seen as biased or self centered.  A simple acknowledgment that one is limiting the discussion when it could be extended to others or some other sort of recognition is generally all that is needed, though if one never engages in any discussions about any other group in any way, shows no interest in discussing anything but what affects oneself, especially if complaining a lot, there is a risk of looking egocentric at the least.  

Demonstrating one has put significant effort into trying to understand others and not just defend or justify oneself or one’s people is a good way to help others learn to trust one (in thinking about how so many have been so kind towards me and receptive towards what I have said, I believe me showing sincere curiosity and concern about others as well as being open about myself has been a big part of it…which makes me lucky because it comes very easy since I am fascinated by people, how they think, why they make the choices they do, etc).

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Now, you know more about me than you ever needed to

Yes, I didn’t ask for the info, and it doesn’t change anything.  Many of us come from challenging backgrounds.  But I’m sorry your wife passed, particularly while you were doing time away. That must have been painful for you both. 
 

We all have biases.  It’s important that we recognize them, own them, understand the impact on others, and not be victims of those impacts.  It’s ok to own it: “I’m a man with traditional values who believes women should be homemakers all, and that patriarchy is the gold standard for religion and society.”   I can respect anyone’s  right to state that and will nod and say good day.  

[ZealouslyStriving]

39 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes, I didn’t ask for the info, and it doesn’t change anything.  Many of us come from challenging backgrounds.  But I’m sorry your wife passed, particularly while you were doing time away. That must have been painful for you both. 
 

We all have biases.  It’s important that we recognize them, own them, understand the impact on others, and not be victims of those impacts.  It’s ok to own it: “I’m a man with traditional values who believes women should be homemakers all, and that patriarchy is the gold standard for religion and society.”   I can respect anyone’s  right to state that and will nod and say good day.  

It would be weird for me to say those things as I don't believe the first one (Proverbs 31)- and the second one depends on what you actually mean by "patriarchy".

I'm much more nuanced than your average caveman. 🦧

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
I botched the scripture reference

[Peacefully]

On 4/19/2024 at 12:12 PM, Calm said:

How about showing some manhood and not care if someone disagrees with you and just not post because it looks like whining that someone dared, to be blunt?  

Raingirl uses the down vote for disagreement with everyone rather than writing an additional post to say “nope, think you are wrong” or whatever.  Most people don’t (most people don’t use it at all). I use it only for very strong disagreement, but there are no rules that say you only have to use the downvote a certain way. 

I look on her as a good friend and just yesterday or the day before I got a downvote from her.  It is not my first one either.  I could see why she disagreed with that one, her vote was not something to get all overdramatic about or even send a note asking her to explain herself, lol.

 

This. I also use the downvote to disagree and I’ve had it used on my posts. I think it is a common online way to agree or disagree without going into detail. Does it really matter if someone in an online forum disagrees with me. Not really, but if Calm or Bluebell gave me a down vote I would reread what I wrote and make sure I didn’t go too far, lol. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, longview said:

The "outrage" culture is very pernicious in their many and varied methods. For example, the national organization for women (NOW) advocated for decades for "equality" for women, for delaying marriage and children in order to pursue a high-faluting career, and so on. But the people staffing and leading this organization were actually dedicated marxists whose real underlying hidden objectives were to dismantle the basic unit of the family. Now we read of more and more women expressing deep regret for missing out on the joys of rearing a family.

The Marxism thing is not a thing.

You hear more and more about that because you are in an echo chamber that keeps telling you that. The frequency which you hear something does not correlate with fact.

7 hours ago, longview said:

Another example is the equal rights amendment (ERA) put forth in 1923 and pursued until 1972 when it was passed by both houses of Congress. It failed to get the required 3/4 of the states. The Church fought hard against it because it would have had a severe and disruptive effect on society.

A severe and disruptive effect of a completely unspecified nature.

7 hours ago, longview said:

Many of those things appear to be enlightening on the surface but if we delve deeper into them, we see more and more cause for concern of the cause and effect that lead to greater chaos. Earlier in this thread I referred to the harmful contraints imposed on boys. Here are a few of the books on this topic:

The War Against Boys: How Misguided Policies Are Harming Our Young Men by Christina Hoff Sommers 

The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell PhD, John Gray PhD, et al.

 

Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons by Meg Meeker

 

And how many books are there on toxic masculinity and the shortcoming of the “patriarchy”. If volume of books published was in any way conclusive you lose.

Also you do realize that most of those books are designed to elicit “outrage”, the thing you are complaining others are doing. Right?

Edited April 20, 2024 by The Nehor

[CV75]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:01 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Last year as I was reading through the Book of Mormon again, I was inspired to really notice all the father-son(s) dynamics, I then realized that beyond being the "keystone of our religion" and our "latter-day survival guide", (it can be used as a "How To Manual For Manhood"). The Book of Mormon addresses:

*how to be a good husband (Lehi)

*how to be a good father (Lehi, Jacob, Enos, King Benjamin, Alma(s), Helaman ben Alma, etc...)

*how to be a good mentor (Captain Helaman)

*how to be a good friend/companion (Ammon ben Mosiah, Alma ben Alma)

*how to be a good leader and citizen (Chief Captain Moroni)

It also serves as a guide for the convincing of all "that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations" (from the Title Page). I think the accounts of men, women and youth in the Book or Mormon, as well as the doctrinal teachings and predictions of the prophets in it, combine to accomplish that. These teach us how to become converted so that we may be healed and conduct our lives after the manner of happiness, pleasing to God.

[Nemesis]

Political