Why Temple BUILDINGS?

[mfbukowski]

This question came up in another thread, and I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

I want to make it clear that I personally am not questioning the use of temple buildings nor the ordinances, their necessity, or their use.  I have been a temple worker myself for over 10 years, in installments, when my life permitted the time commitment.

All the ordinances have historically been done outside "temples" in various specially dedicated rooms or buildings, so why do we need the wonderful and beautiful- and expensive- temples we use today?

I am reminded of Christ's, Transfiguration,  and others, done in simple settings. The Savior himself, it seems, did not need a special building in which to receive his endowment!

Certainly our sacred spaces enhance and increase the spiritual experiences in remembrance, perhaps, of our our experiences in our pre-mortal estates.

But theologically and doctrinally, why do we need a dedicated and beautiful building?

Certainly the idea of sacred spaces in the form of cathedrals, etc. are an essential part of Christianity itself.

But theologically and doctrinally what is their basis?

Edited November 30, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

Why is it a temple building if its already built? Shouldn't they be called temple builts?

RIP Comedian Gallagher

[Tacenda]

If they build it they will come. Maybe it attracts new members to the faith? I do remember a time several years ago, of hearing in a lesson perhaps, that one day we will need to use churches to do temple ordinances. So it is a good question!  

 

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Why is it a temple building if its already built? Shouldn't they be called temple builts?

RIP Comedian Gallagher

I had to read that like 3 times before it clicked!

Doncha love ambiguity ??   

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If they build it they will come. Maybe it attracts new members to the faith? I do remember a time several years ago, of hearing in a lesson perhaps, that one day we will need to use churches to do temple ordinances. So it is a good question!  

 

👍🏻👍🏻

[Pyreaux]

42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I had to read that like 3 times before it clicked!

Doncha love ambiguity ??   

Well, as my penance, I'll tell you a serious thought on the purpose of temples, which is to dot claim landmarks and then expand the grounds to fulfill the great commission where we righteously dominate and micromanage the whole planet. Hence, Adam "tilled" the earth to fulfill that commission. The patriarch's temples were on going buildings around a natural Edenic landmark, a mountain and or a big tree, but a temple made these features artificially. The Temple building in Jerusalem had mountains depicted on the back if it, The leafy Menorah represents the tree of life in the midst of the cherubim garden as depicted on the walls. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Well, as my penance, I'll tell you a serious thought on the purpose of temples, which is to dot claim landmarks and then expand the grounds to fulfill the great commission where we righteously dominate and micromanage the whole planet. Hence, Adam "tilled" the earth to fulfill that commission. The patriarch's temples were on going buildings around a natural Edenic landmark, a mountain and or a big tree, but a temple made these features artificially. The Temple building in Jerusalem had mountains depicted on the back if it, The leafy Menorah represents the tree of life in the midst of the cherubim garden as depicted on the walls. 

So, like cathedrals they are an artistic gallery telling the plan of salvation by simply passing through?  I like it.

In LA we go up 1 or 2 physical stairs between the progressing rooms, showing physical progression "upward" physically and spiritually, as the endowment progresses spiritually room to room. 

I like it! 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This question came up in another thread, and I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

I want to make it clear that I personally am not questioning the use of temple buildings nor the ordinances, their necessity, or their use.  I have been a temple worker myself for over 10 years, in installments, when my life permitted the time commitment.

All the ordinances have historically been done outside "temples" in various specially dedicated rooms or buildings, so why do we need the wonderful and beautiful- and expensive- temples we use today?

I am reminded of Christ's, Transfiguration,  and others, done in simple settings. The Savior himself, it seems, did not need a special building in which to receive his endowment!

Certainly our sacred spaces enhance and increase the spiritual experiences in remembrance, perhaps, of our our experiences in our pre-mortal estates.

But theologically and doctrinally, why do we need a dedicated and beautiful building?

Certainly the idea of sacred spaces in the form of cathedrals, etc. are an essential part of Christianity itself.

But theologically and doctrinally what is their basis?

The tabernacle in the wilderness was constructed according to God’s instructions, and “precious” and “peculiar” are used in describing its materials, people, purpose and covenants.

I think wealth (natural resources and their refined versions), beauty (natural and artistic) and covenant (unity in stewardship) elevate our spirituality in different godly ways. Temples, natural and constructed, integrate these elements. So, God made lone individuals hike (requiring expense and effort) up beautiful mountains to receive Him, and makes groups do the same in a more practical way by building beautiful, expensive temples together.

I believe God is teaching us to partner with Him in this “united order” (intentionally not capitalized), uniting the three elements as a congregation by building and gathering into one physical-spiritual location-sentiment. God, who owns everything, still found precious and peculiar ways of manifesting His wealth, beauty and covenant through the gift of His Son and all He did. Building expensive temples gives us a small taste of what He put into that Creation.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

The tabernacle in the wilderness was constructed according to God’s instructions, and “precious” and “peculiar” are used in describing its materials, people, purpose and covenants.

I think wealth (natural resources and their refined versions), beauty (natural and artistic) and covenant (unity in stewardship) elevate our spirituality in different godly ways. Temples, natural and constructed, integrate these elements. So, God made lone individuals hike (requiring expense and effort) up beautiful mountains to receive Him, and makes groups do the same in a more practical way by building beautiful, expensive temples together.

I believe God is teaching us to partner with Him in this “united order” (intentionally not capitalized), uniting the three elements as a congregation by building and gathering into one physical-spiritual location-sentiment. God, who owns everything, still found precious and peculiar ways of manifesting His wealth, beauty and covenant through the gift of His Son and all He did. Building expensive temples gives us a small taste of what He put into that Creation.

Good stuff, thanks!

Perhaps as a rainbow enhances the contemplation of color (yes, color again, but if I said "qualia", I would lose folks, but for others, that is what I am talking about) the mental "volume" of the incoming experience is turned up, as it were, improving the spiritual "acoustics" ( mixing metaphors with color! ) and the increased acoustics allow one to "hear the oboe " - sticking with that metaphor - that without the enhancement one might have totally missed.

I recall years ago hearing The Beatles' song "Here Comes the Sun" on the radio, and thought it was  a good song.  Later I listened to it with headphones and discovered nuances impossible to hear on my little transistor radio, that just were AMAZING!

There is one section where a VERY high pitched organ part appears, which for me, almost enabled me to SEE, in my imagination, the first rays of the sun breaking through the early morning gloom. 

THAT  experience led me to studying Qualia, and thereby spiritual experience, and ultimately to discover The Church of God's Qualia in Latter Day Saints! 😳

Thanks!  

[Tacenda]

Finished the video, https://youtu.be/T_gxZvjyLss on the other thread with the Peter Santello videos about the LDS. At minute mark 40:00 listen to what the gentleman says about the building of temples toward the last days or something. He mentions the church is going to build smaller temples that can pop up and be built in 2 weeks with prefab materials. And the host (woman) compares it to the tabernacles built in the wilderness, I believe.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Tacenda

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This question came up in another thread, and I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

I want to make it clear that I personally am not questioning the use of temple buildings nor the ordinances, their necessity, or their use.  I have been a temple worker myself for over 10 years, in installments, when my life permitted the time commitment.

All the ordinances have historically been done outside "temples" in various specially dedicated rooms or buildings, so why do we need the wonderful and beautiful- and expensive- temples we use today?

I am reminded of Christ's, Transfiguration,  and others, done in simple settings. The Savior himself, it seems, did not need a special building in which to receive his endowment!

Certainly our sacred spaces enhance and increase the spiritual experiences in remembrance, perhaps, of our our experiences in our pre-mortal estates.

But theologically and doctrinally, why do we need a dedicated and beautiful building?

Certainly the idea of sacred spaces in the form of cathedrals, etc. are an essential part of Christianity itself.

But theologically and doctrinally what is their basis?

To say that a mighty, hard to access mountain (created and dedicated by the Lord omnipotent himself to serve as a sacred edifice for his holy purposes when there are no temples erected on the earth) is merely a “simple setting,” and not a “special building,” is highly inaccurate. Just because the Lord personally ‘builds’ and dedicates certain holy mountains to serve as temples, when needed, doesn’t make them any less special and sacred than today’s temples that are built with human hands. It’s also not mere coincidence that the scriptures liken the Lord’s holy temples on earth to mountains (e.g. “the mountain of the Lord’s house”).

And just as the Garden of Eden was planted and set apart by God as a most holy and sacred place where the Father and the Son could personally minister to Adam and Eve (and from whence they could be expelled if disobedient) the Lord has commanded his people to obey the holy law of sacrifice by engaging in hard work, (that is, by obeying the law of tithing, to build and dedicate sacred places on earth where other dedicated ‘Gardens of Eden’ can serve as holy places wherein the tree of life is accessible and where God can personally visit his faithful disciples on this fallen earth — a world otherwise totally unworthy to experience and enjoy God’s immediate personal presence. There would be no holy, sanctifying sacrifices of time and energy needed if the higher ordinances of the gospel could simply be performed in the Relief Society room.

And remember, just as the heaven where God the Father dwells is a very real material place that is separated from and inaccessible to the world, so too are today’s temples, his holy outposts of heaven on earth, very real material places that are physically inaccessible to all who dwell on earth except for those who have made the needed spiritual sacrifices to be found worthy to enter therein.
 

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Finished the video, https://youtu.be/T_gxZvjyLss on the other thread with the Peter Santello videos about the LDS. At minute mark 40:00 listen to what the gentleman says about the building of temples toward the last days or something. He mentions the church is going to build smaller temples that can pop up and be built in 2 weeks with prefab materials. And the host (woman) compares it to the tabernacles built in the wilderness, I believe.

 

Excellent, thanks!  I remember that article now, I had forgotten it!

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

To say that a mighty, hard to access mountain (created and dedicated by the Lord omnipotent himself to serve as a sacred edifice for his holy purposes when there are no temples erected on the earth) is merely a “simple setting,” and not a “special building,” is highly inaccurate. Just because the Lord personally ‘builds’ and dedicates certain holy mountains to serve as temples, when needed, doesn’t make them any less special and sacred than today’s temples that are built with human hands. It’s also not mere coincidence that the scriptures liken the Lord’s holy temples on earth to mountains (e.g. “the mountain of the Lord’s house”).

And just as the Garden of Eden was planted and set apart by God as a most holy and sacred place where the Father and the Son could personally minister to Adam and Eve (and from whence they could be expelled if disobedient) the Lord has commanded his people to obey the holy law of sacrifice by engaging in hard work, (that is, by obeying the law of tithing, to build and dedicate sacred places on earth where other dedicated ‘Gardens of Eden’ can serve as holy places wherein the tree of life is accessible and where God can personally visit his faithful disciples on this fallen earth — a world otherwise totally unworthy to experience and enjoy God’s immediate personal presence. There would be no holy, sanctifying sacrifices of time and energy needed if the higher ordinances of the gospel could simply be performed in the Relief Society room.

And remember, just as the heaven where God the Father dwells is a very real material place that is separated from and inaccessible to the world, so too are today’s temples, his holy outposts of heaven on earth, very real material places that are physically inaccessible to all who dwell on earth except for those who have made the needed spiritual sacrifices to be found worthy to enter therein.
 

Thanks!

Being mostly a flatlander, I seldom think of " the mountain of the Lord"; it unfortunately becomes "that big thing next to the freeway".

[mfbukowski]

Referring back to the Beatles qualia analogy I mentioned above, this video was put together in 2019, and shows an example of amplifying qualia with more symbols.

It emphasizes the very high organ part by repeating "Sun- here it comes" several times immediately before the high organ part begins, illustrating how the qualia of the organ part BECOMES symbolically THE SUN itself.  Perhaps a grand temple acts similarly by saying "Godly Ordinances : Here They Come"?

Turn it up, and put on headphones!!

- an old hippie  🤔

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

Wikipedia: "Qualia"  an accurate article 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

"American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce introduced the term quale in philosophy in 1866, and in 1929 C. I. Lewis was the first to use the term "qualia" in its generally agreed upon modern sense. Frank Jackson later defined qualia as "...certain features of the bodily sensations especially, but also of certain perceptual experiences, which no amount of purely physical information includes". Philosopher and cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett suggested that qualia was "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us".

Edited November 30, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This question came up in another thread, and I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

I want to make it clear that I personally am not questioning the use of temple buildings nor the ordinances, their necessity, or their use.  I have been a temple worker myself for over 10 years, in installments, when my life permitted the time commitment.

If I may ask, which Temple did you work in, and when? We have many Temples that are quite small, and inexpensive. When my son went through the Temple before his mission, the Atlanta Temple was being remodeled. So we went to the Birmingham, AL Temple, which was not to much larger than my home at the time. In fact it shared the parking lot with the even smaller Ward building. 

[mfbukowski]

56 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

If I may ask, which Temple did you work in, and when? We have many Temples that are quite small, and inexpensive. When my son went through the Temple before his mission, the Atlanta Temple was being remodeled. So we went to the Birmingham, AL Temple, which was not to much larger than my home at the time. In fact it shared the parking lot with the even smaller Ward building. 

Los Angeles, the largest above-ground  temple in the church; SLC is larger in sq.ft. but that is due to the underground annexes etc. which have been added to the original building 

So perhaps, yes, I am inclined to see temples as larger than others might see them.

https://images.app.goo.gl/hJFhykL8NUTBVg1f7

Everything you see with a white roof is part of the temple 

And this:

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/los-angeles-california-temple/videos/

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Los Angeles, the largest above-ground  temple in the church; SLC is larger in sq.ft. but that is due to the underground annexes etc. which have been added to the original building 

So perhaps, yes, I am inclined to see temples as larger than others might see them.

https://images.app.goo.gl/hJFhykL8NUTBVg1f7

Everything you see with a white roof is part of the temple 

And this:

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/los-angeles-california-temple/videos/

 

My granddaughter, who is on a mission was there, or rather did sessions all day last week. She fell in love with its size and beauty. I was asking which, as I have a lifelong friend who worked at another. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[LoudmouthMormon]

We're humans.  We build things.  Sacred spaces are hardly unique to Christianity, or even religion.   Humans have always built special edifices for special/respected/reverent/holy/sacred/awe inspiring purposes.  Why?  You'll have to take that up with our creator. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

My granddaughter, who is on a mission was there, or rather did sessions all day last week. She fell in love with its size and beauty. I was asking which, as I have a lifelong friend who worked at another. 

Yes, the huge walls in the ordinance rooms provide space for HUGE murals; the creation room immerses you in swirling "snapshot" of what it might have been like to be in the center of the process of matter being organized.

Those rooms will all accommodate around 200 people, and I have been in sessions in which they have had to bring in folding chairs in the aisles, up to the max that the fire dept. will allow

https://images.app.goo.gl/ftJU8MtQ27dGbtAd9

Edited December 1, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Kenngo1969]

I don't have a more authoritative source than my own cogitations and musings, so I apologize.  As much as many spaces may be sacred spaces (depending on the circumstances and on the disposition of those involved), I can't shake the feeling that there is something special—something that, very nearly, is unique—about creating sacred spaces ... in our homes, in our chapels, and in our Temples.  (I think it would be an interesting experience to spend at least a few minutes conversing with someone who has participated directly in constructing a Temple.)

After all, among many, many other things, God is a creator.  He invites us to participate in creative acts with Him: In pro-creating mortal, fleshly tabernacles for His Spirit Sons and Daughters; in becoming reborn, New Creatures in Christ; and in fashioning such Sacred Edifices (as I mention in the foregoing paragraph) as homes, chapels, and Temples.  (By the way, do you think it is simply a coincidence that the words "edification" and "edifice," respectively, share the same root?  I don't.)

And then there is the matter that, historically, our ancestors (whether they are our Spiritual ancestors or our literal, physical ancestors) sacrificed greatly to build the first Temples erected in this dispensation.  The refinement that accompanies such sacred sacrifice (Hmmm ... Two words with roots in common again???) should not be underestimated.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

... Those rooms [ordinance rooms in the Los Angeles Temple] will all accommodate around 200 people, and I have been in sessions in which they have had to bring in folding chairs in the aisles, up to the max that the fire dept. will allow

https://images.app.goo.gl/ftJU8MtQ27dGbtAd9

[Ring, Ring!] "Good afternoon, Los Angeles Latter-day Saint Temple."

"Yes, this is the Los Angeles Fire Department.  We have an alarm coming from your premises.  Is everything OK?"

"Oh, yes.  We appreciate your concern, and we're sorry for the disturbance.  That's just The Spirit of God Like A Fire Burning."  

Edited December 1, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

5 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

My granddaughter, who is on a mission was there, or rather did sessions all day last week. She fell in love with its size and beauty. I was asking which, as I have a lifelong friend who worked at another. 

How do you post a picture on this thread, I would love to show the picture of my granddaughter, with others on her mission in front of the L.A. Temple. 

[mfbukowski]

52 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't have a more authoritative source than my own cogitations and musings, so I apologize.  As much as many spaces may be sacred spaces (depending on the circumstances and on the disposition of those involved), I can't shake the feeling that there is something special—something that, very nearly, is unique—about creating sacred spaces ... in our homes, in our chapels, and in our Temples.  (I think it would be an interesting experience to spend at least a few minutes conversing with someone who has participated directly in constructing a Temple.)

After all, among many, many other things, God is a creator.  He invites us to participate in creative acts with Him: In pro-creating mortal, fleshly tabernacles for His Spirit Sons and Daughters; in becoming reborn, New Creatures in Christ; and in fashioning such Sacred Edifices (as I mention in the foregoing paragraph) as homes, chapels, and Temples.  (By the way, do you think it is simply a coincidence that the words "edification" and "edifice," respectively, share the same root?  I don't.)

And then there is the matter that, historically, our ancestors (whether they are our Spiritual ancestors or our literal, physical ancestors) sacrificed greatly to build the first Temples erected in this dispensation.  The refinement that accompanies such sacred sacrifice (Hmmm ... Two words with roots in common again???) should not be underestimated.

Fabulous! Never made that connection before!

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

How do you post a picture on this thread, I would love to show the picture of my granddaughter, with others on her mission in front of the L.A. Temple. 

Many ways! But it depends on your machine

One:

Pull up the pic, then pull up "cut and paste", or use "control C" to copy the image.  Go to where you want to paste it, and hit "control v".  Then save the post, and you're done!