"In the name of Jesus Christ"

[Rain]

Did we always get taught to use the line "in the name of Jesus Christ"?  I understand the scriptures say we should pray in his name.  But there is a difference in praying in his name (intent) and actually saying the line. So in our church has the line always been expected to be there in prayers, talks and lessons?  If not, what is the story of it starting to be there?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Rain

[JLHPROF]

I don't know the origin, but using it when it's not true is taking the Lord's name in vain, and so is a sin.

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't know the origin, but using it when it's not true is taking the Lord's name in vain, and so is a sin.

What might an example of this be?

[Rain]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't know the origin, but using it when it's not true is taking the Lord's name in vain, and so is a sin.

Related thing (sort of, not really as I read over your post again) I came across - authority, but when I went back to find the references I had little luck on my phone (the little screen is becoming too small for my eyes). So then I wondered do we feel the same way about that as we do about baptism?  That the saying of it by a non member doesn't have authority? And what does that even mean?

And what about non Christians - does that mean their prayers are less than?  

But like I said, I wanted to find references and really look at them before assuming the authority thing was a real idea.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't know the origin, but using it when it's not true is taking the Lord's name in vain, and so is a sin.

Yeah sure.

We can sin now without any intent- and also when we think we are doing the right thing?

Yeah God is certainly terrible. 

It must be the Sabbath when Satan works overtime.

 

[manol]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Did we always get taught to use the line "in the name of Jesus Christ"?  I understand the scriptures say we should pray in his name.  But there is a difference in praying in his name (intent) and actually saying the line. So in our church has the line always been expected to be there in prayers, talks and lessons?  If not, what is the story of it starting to be there?

I believe the phrase "in the name of Jesus Christ" is an affirmation of Oneness with Christ, and is a profound and transformational truth hidden in plain sight, taught in the 17th chapter of John verse 21: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee". 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't know the origin, but using it when it's not true is taking the Lord's name in vain, and so is a sin.

I don't believe it is ever untrue, even if the person saying it has mistaken ideas. 

[Pyreaux]

Peter said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." (Acts 3:6) what Peter meant by "in the Name," he explains in verses 12 and 16, "when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?", "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through Him that has given him this complete healing in your presence."

Peter says it to show that they did not work the miracle by their own power or godliness, but that they were healed by the Name of Jesus, a name in which the lame man believed in and the source of the healing. And Jesus says of himself, "I am come in my Father's Name" (John 5:43; John 10:25), I assume he's crediting the source of his own power, it seems to be the edict.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Did we always get taught to use the line "in the name of Jesus Christ"?  I understand the scriptures say we should pray in his name.  But there is a difference in praying in his name (intent) and actually saying the line. So in our church has the line always been expected to be there in prayers, talks and lessons?  If not, what is the story of it starting to be there?

It would be no later than when Jospeh Smith translated Moses 5: "8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest [the context was sacrifice, and by extension holy ordinances] in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore." 

But a scripture search of "in the name of" shows it is in the Book of Mormon also (Moroni, prayer; 3 Nephi 27, baptizing). And of course, the New Testament as well (Acts).

[JLHPROF]

55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah sure.

We can sin now without any intent- and also when we think we are doing the right thing?

Yeah God is certainly terrible. 

It must be the Sabbath when Satan works overtime.

 

Taking the Lord's name in vain is clearly listed as sin.  Therefore if it's not something that should be stated in his name (like  testimony or God's gospel) we should be very careful.

Mock if you like.  I'd rather not mock the Lord.

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It would be no later than when Jospeh Smith translated Moses 5: "8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest [the context was sacrifice, and by extension holy ordinances] in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore." 

But a scripture search of "in the name of" shows it is in the Book of Mormon also (Moroni, prayer; 3 Nephi 27, baptizing). And of course, the New Testament as well (Acts).

It's something that wasn't done regularly in the Church until well into the 20th century.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, manol said:

I believe the phrase "in the name of Jesus Christ" is an affirmation of Oneness with Christ, and is a profound and transformational truth hidden in plain sight, taught in the 17th chapter of John verse 21: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee". 

I don't believe it is ever untrue, even if the person saying it has mistaken ideas. 

 

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Peter said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." (Acts 3:6) what Peter meant by "in the Name," he explains in verses 12 and 16, "when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?", "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through Him that has given him this complete healing in your presence."

Peter says it to show that they did not work the miracle by their own power or godliness, but that they were healed by the Name of Jesus, a name in which the lame man believed in and the source of the healing. And Jesus says of himself, "I am come in my Father's Name" (John 5:43; John 10:25), I assume he's crediting the source of his own power, it seems to be the edict.

 

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

It would be no later than when Jospeh Smith translated Moses 5: "8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest [the context was sacrifice, and by extension holy ordinances] in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore." 

But a scripture search of "in the name of" shows it is in the Book of Mormon also (Moroni, prayer; 3 Nephi 27, baptizing). And of course, the New Testament as well (Acts).

Yes, but have we always said this or is a thing that came along later?  Not all Christians do it (not just the exact words, but the idea) so I don't know when church members started doing it. Tithing is in the bible too, but it wasn't really taught (from what I understand) much till later so just because it's in the bible or the other scriptures doesn't mean our church members were doing it.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Taking the Lord's name in vain is clearly listed as sin.  Therefore if it's not something that should be stated in his name (like  testimony or God's gospel) we should be very careful.

Mock if you like.  I'd rather not mock the Lord.

I was a little worried about putting it in the title.  Did you find it inappropriate?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It's something that wasn't done regularly in the Church until well into the 20th century.

CFR please.  Very interested in this.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

but it wasn't really taught (from what I understand) much till later so just because it's in the bible or the other scriptures doesn't mean our church members were doing it.

I read something recently that around the turn of the last century, a full tithe payer would have been looked on with “awe and reverence”.  I think it was a Quinn article on church finances.  Iirc, les than 1% of the Church were full tithe payers.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Rain said:

I was a little worried about putting it in the title.  Did you find it inappropriate?

Of course not.

I'm not that uptight.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR please.  Very interested in this.

This guy traced it a bit for his blog, but just focused on the President of the Church.

Although we tend to follow their example.

https://boaporg.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/in-the-name-of-jesus-christ-amen/

 

[Navidad]

After I gave an invocation at the Presidential Banquet of MHA one year, a lady came up to me and told me she was surprised "I could pray so well in Mormon." I had to hold back a chuckle. I wasn't sure what she meant or what I had said. It reminded me of when I was the English pastor of a Mandarin Baptist church. I tried so hard to get comfortable in praying in Mandarin, especially after the senior pastor, who did everything in Mandarin passed away.

I also remember our bishop informing me about the preferred LDS method to close a prayer. I tried to always follow his guidance. However, now I am not sure I even remember what he told me. I guess I just always thought that to pray in Mormon meant praying in Old English - thee, thou, and thine! I never did get comfortable folding my arms. I can't remember anyone ever explaining that custom to me, except maybe to keep the children still.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Navidad

[Rain]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course not.

I'm not that uptight.

I just wanted to be sensitive.  It was a real concern for me (not for you, just for people in general).  I chose quote marks hoping that would both help with an understanding of the line and that I'm trying not to be disrespectful.

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

After I gave an invocation at the Presidential Banquet of MHA one year, a lady came up to me and told me she was surprised "I could pray so well in Mormon." I had to hold back a chuckle. I wasn't sure what she meant or what I had said. It reminded me of when I was the English pastor of a Mandarin Baptist church. I tried so hard to get comfortable in praying in Mandarin, especially after the senior pastor, who did everything in Mandarin passed away.

I also remember our bishop informing me about the preferred LDS method to close a prayer. I tried to always follow his guidance. However, now I am not sure I even remember what he told me. I guess I just always thought that to pray in Mormon meant praying in Old English - thee, thou, and thine! I never did get comfortable folding my arms. I can't remember anyone ever explaining that custom to me, except maybe to keep the children still.

There is definitely a latter-day saint way. I can pretty much spot a member by the way they pray.

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This guy traced it a bit for his blog, but just focused on the President of the Church.

Although we tend to follow their example.

https://boaporg.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/in-the-name-of-jesus-christ-amen/

 

Excellent resource, and I agree lay usage will follow leadership most likely.  But it only focused on talks and Rain was wondering about prayers and lessons as well.

Quote

. So in our church has the line always been expected to be there in prayers, talks and lessons? 

As a child and into adulthood, I don’t remember teachers closing lessons this way.  I was not taught to do this as a teacher any time that I recall, though they said to bear my testimony when appropriate.  I never did as a Primary or SS teacher.  I have not attended RS or SS with much regularity because of other callings during that time and haven’t at all for a number of years because I can only handle SM at this point.  And while I remember many teachers giving their testimony of whatever principle was taught in the lesson, I am not sure if it got included every time or when this started to be common.

Checking recent Come Follow Me manuals, there are frequent suggestions to share your testimony for parts of the lessons, but not a standard instruction to close with them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-primary-new-testament-2023/01?lang=eng

It would be interesting to find out when it became the standard closing of prayers.

It is mentioned in this lesson on prayer:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/prayer-study-guide?lang=eng

And this one:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/believe/god/how-to-pray

But not this one:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/prayer?lang=eng

This one has “pray in Christ’s name” only.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2013/08/for-older-kids/how-to-pray?lang=eng#title1

Edited:  my bad, the search function on the Church website defaults to “lessons” for me, which is strange and forgettable.  There are quite a few “how to pray” in the Friend and on the ComeuntoChrist site, but I am still surprised it isn’t in actual lessons.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It's something that wasn't done regularly in the Church until well into the 20th century.

I think that's a good thing.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Yes, but have we always said this or is a thing that came along later?  Not all Christians do it (not just the exact words, but the idea) so I don't know when church members started doing it. Tithing is in the bible too, but it wasn't really taught (from what I understand) much till later so just because it's in the bible or the other scriptures doesn't mean our church members were doing it.

I would look to the Handbooks of Instructions in years past to identify a formal starting point (correlation, beginning in 1904) as a formal standard of practice aside from the latter-day revelations: John the Baptist used the phrase in D&C 13; Jospeh Smith in the dedicatory prayer i D&C 109; the sacrament prayer as introduced in D&C 20; and as the saints are instructed to do in other sections in the D&C (50, 46).

[Calm]

Came across this…

Quote

The Bible Dictionary says: “We pray in Christ’s name when our mind is the mind of Christ, and our wishes the wishes of Christ—when His words abide in us (John 15:7). We then ask for things it is possible for God to grant. Many prayers remain unanswered because they are not in Christ’s name at all; they in no way represent His mind.”

What are those things it is possible for God to grant? How could I make sure my wishes are the wishes of Christ?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/how-to-pray-in-a-way-god-can-answer?lang=eng

Is this how you (those reading this post) view the meaning of “in the name of Jesus Christ”?

I am trying to remember how I taught prayer to my Primary kids.  I don’t believe I did it this way though I taught prayer was a way to help us learn what God wanted for us.

This is closer to how I taught it and I hope this is the message the kids actually got.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/magazines/friend/2013/08/fr13aug47-how-to-pray.pdf

Also this:

Quote

Don’t worry about your clumsily expressed feelings. Just talk to your compassionate, understanding Father. You are His precious child whom He loves perfectly and wants to help. As you pray, recognize that Father in Heaven is near and He is listening.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/07/how-to-pray-and-seek-answers?lang=eng#title1

This is how I remember being taught what it meant when we used the phrase:

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/the-significance-of-praying-in-the-name-of-jesus-christ/

Edited September 10, 2023 by Calm

[manol]

52 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes, but have we always said this or is a thing that came along later?  Not all Christians do it (not just the exact words, but the idea) so I don't know when church members started doing it.

I'm pretty sure I was hearing it when I first started attending LDS services in the early 1970's because I remember thinking it was weird.  I do recall noticing its absence when I went through a phase of reading sermons in the Journal of Discourses. 

As a member I was often somewhat frustrated that the phrase was seemingly used largely used by rote, typically without the reverence I thought it called for.

Subsequently my paradigm shifted and I now think it's brilliant that that phrase has become part of LDS culture.

I think the link in @JLHPROF's post above is a good answer to your question.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Taking the Lord's name in vain is clearly listed as sin.  Therefore if it's not something that should be stated in his name (like  testimony or God's gospel) we should be very careful.

Mock if you like.  I'd rather not mock the Lord.

So now you by your own authority will call down a lightning bolt on me personally, because doing so on a disagreement about what "mock" means?  That doesn't represent what I believe about MY Lord and God.

"In vain" while the person saying those words believes he was actually praising Christ for the inspiration to say whatever he did say?

I could not disagree more.  I will not respond to your taunts.