Mosiah 5:8-15 - the left and right hand of God

[telnetd]

Mosiah 5:8-15 says that those who have not entered into the covenant with God and are not 
obedient to the end of their lives end up on the left hand of God. They don't have the seal 
of Christ on them and they don't have everlasting salvation and eternal life like those on 
God's right hand, who took upon them the name of Christ. Those who would not take upon them 
the name of Christ would be called by some other name.

I can understand that only those in the highest level of the celestial kingdom have eternal
life (being on His right hand), but I found verse 14 a little harsh when it likens those on 
the left side (without eternal life) to an animal to be driven away and cast out.  

A few other verses from the Book of Mormon and one from the Doctrine and Covenants also speak 
of those on either the left or right hand of God.

Alma 5:58 - "For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them 
will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against 
this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be 
fulfilled".

Ether 12:4 - "Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, 
even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls 
of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to 
glorify God".

Doctrine and Covenants 19:5-7 - "Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but 
woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my 
left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it 
is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express 
than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for 
my name's glory".

Is endless torment and eternal damnation for those on the left (the D&C quote) the opposite of 
everlasting salvation (the Mosiah quote)?

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 5:8-15 says that those who have not entered into the covenant with God and are not 
obedient to the end of their lives end up on the left hand of God. They don't have the seal 
of Christ on them and they don't have everlasting salvation and eternal life like those on 
God's right hand, who took upon them the name of Christ. Those who would not take upon them 
the name of Christ would be called by some other name.

I can understand that only those in the highest level of the celestial kingdom have eternal
life (being on His right hand), but I found verse 14 a little harsh when it likens those on 
the left side (without eternal life) to an animal to be driven away and cast out.  

A few other verses from the Book of Mormon and one from the Doctrine and Covenants also speak 
of those on either the left or right hand of God.

Alma 5:58 - "For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them 
will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against 
this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be 
fulfilled".

Ether 12:4 - "Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, 
even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls 
of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to 
glorify God".

Doctrine and Covenants 19:5-7 - "Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but 
woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my 
left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it 
is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express 
than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for 
my name's glory".

Is endless torment and eternal damnation for those on the left (the D&C quote) the opposite of 
everlasting salvation (the Mosiah quote)?

Yes, and no.

Eternal life is God's life and eternal/endless punishment is God's punishment. The latter still allows for a universal resurrection ("everlasting salvation") but without eternal life. They are opposite in that God wants the first and not the second (but we choose). They are not opposite in that both entail a resurrection; the first is a "fulness" and the second is not.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 5:8-15 says that those who have not entered into the covenant with God and are not 
obedient to the end of their lives end up on the left hand of God. They don't have the seal 
of Christ on them and they don't have everlasting salvation and eternal life like those on 
God's right hand, who took upon them the name of Christ. Those who would not take upon them 
the name of Christ would be called by some other name.

I can understand that only those in the highest level of the celestial kingdom have eternal
life (being on His right hand), but I found verse 14 a little harsh when it likens those on 
the left side (without eternal life) to an animal to be driven away and cast out.  

A few other verses from the Book of Mormon and one from the Doctrine and Covenants also speak 
of those on either the left or right hand of God.

Alma 5:58 - "For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them 
will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against 
this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be 
fulfilled".

Ether 12:4 - "Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, 
even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls 
of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to 
glorify God".

Doctrine and Covenants 19:5-7 - "Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but 
woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my 
left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it 
is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express 
than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for 
my name's glory".

Is endless torment and eternal damnation for those on the left (the D&C quote) the opposite of 
everlasting salvation (the Mosiah quote)?

The answers you’re seeking are found in Doctrine and Covenant Sections 76 and 138. Both sections make it clear that at the final judgement even the inheritors of Telestial Kingdom will have to first bow the knee in obeisance to God the Father and confess unto him that Jesus Christ is Lord, Savior and Redeemer before their redemption can come. Section 138 goes on to further testify that before being able to gain an inheritance in the Telestial Kingdom, those consigned to the spirit prison after death will only be able to escape their consignment to hell by having their sins washed away by the atoning blood of Christ. Read section 138 and you’ll see.

The Book of Mormon anticipates these glorious doctrines of salvation but doesn’t spell them out explicitly because before revealing the more inclusive and expansive plan of salvation disclosed in Sections 76, 88, 128 and 138 the Lord commanded Mormon to leave the more advanced teachings on the plan of salvation out of his abridgment as a test of faith of the latter-day gentiles (us), and this to determine if they (we) will accept the more basic teachings on the plan of salvation found in the Book of Mormon first, before being blessed with the revelation of the more advanced doctrines of salvation found in Sections 76, 88, 128 and 138.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be witheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people. (3 Nephi 25)

The latter-day gentiles obviously passed the Lord’s test of faith because the greater revelation of the plan of salvation has been revealed to us.

Doctrine and Covenants 19 is a precursor to Sections 76, 88, 128, and 138, for it begins to “let the cat out of the bag” by informing the saints early on that not all who are found at one time on the left hand of God — such as the wicked who are going to be destroyed in the flesh at the time of the Second Coming, for example — are going to forever remain at his left side. It’s only the sons of perdition who are consigned to outer darkness forever.

But remember, Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that there is much more yet to be revealed pertaining to the plan of salvation that’s not disclosed in 76. We’re even told that no man actually knows the ultimate fate of the sons of perdition. All we know about their fate is what’s been revealed thus far, and the Lord himself says Section 76 is incomplete. When the fullness of Section 76 is finally revealed, will we again be astonished at the depth, breadth and height of the Lord’s mercy?

Edited August 4, 2023 by teddyaware

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Is endless torment and eternal damnation for those on the left (the D&C quote) the opposite of everlasting salvation (the Mosiah quote)?

No -

Before I get into my view here, I want to point out that Section 19 is very early. It is received in the summer of 1829 - and the revelation of the three levels of heaven in the resurrection doesn't come until 1832. So what we are seeing in Section 19 is something of a preliminary notion that is developed later - and it is an expression of the idea that the punishments of God do not last forever in a temporal sense - there is a limit to them.

So, the eventual doctrine is that for some, this punishment does last forever - those are the sons of perdition. Perdition is considered the opposite of Eternal life (everlasting salvation).

For everyone else, there is some form of inheritance in a kingdom (see Section 76). For those who immediately inherit the Celestial Kingdom, there is no punishment to be experienced (their punishment is prevented by the atonement). Everyone else must face some sort of judgment and punishment before moving on to their kingdom. And this is what Section 19 is about - that state of punishment only lasts for a little while.

Which brings me to an earlier comment -

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

I can understand that only those in the highest level of the celestial kingdom have eternal life (being on His right hand)

Mormonism generally doesn't differentiate between the three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom in terms of the question of exaltation. The separation of the Celestial Kingdom into three levels doesn't show up until the last part of the 19th century. Mormonisms views of the three degrees and their purpose has shifted more than once since that time. A fluidity in understanding and a lack of scriptural definition also led to a related issue - one of the debated ideas in the Church is the question of upward mobility in the resurrection. In its most restrictive form, the consensus is that upward mobility is limited to mobility within the three kingdoms. In this case, anyone can move from the lowest degree of the Celestial Kingdom to the highest. In the most expansive form of the idea of progression in the resurrection, as long as you inherit a kingdom you can progress towards the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom - it just takes time (a resource that all resurrected persons have in abundance). But in any case, I think that Mormonism as a whole would view all of those in the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom as having exaltation. At any rate, there is further development of this idea in the notion that LDS have of having ones calling an election made sure, where we have the idea taught that this process

It is also worth mentioning that the idea of God's left and right hand is a figurative statement. It is a metaphor.

[blackstrap]

As a left handed person , it has always bugged me that the left hand of God is a negative. 

On 8/4/2023 at 10:01 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

It is also worth mentioning that the idea of God's left and right hand is a figurative statement. It is a metaphor.

It probably has something to do with the way sheep were processed. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by blackstrap

[Benjamin McGuire]

27 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

It probably has something to do with the way sheep were processed. 

No, it really has to do with right and left handed people ... if 90 percent of the population were left handed instead of right handed, it would probably have been reversed.

You might enjoy this volume. Or you might hate it (it certainly costs too much ...).

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, blackstrap said:

As a left handed person , it has always bugged me that the left hand of God is a negative. 

With the things that correlate with being left-handed I am surprised that there hasn't been a new movement to force right-handedness on children again.

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, blackstrap said:

As a left handed person , it has always bugged me that the left hand of God is a negative. 

It probably has something to do with the way sheep were processed. 

First, look this up

https://www.online-latin-dictionary.com/latin-english-dictionary.php?parola=Sinister+

Then in the same dictionary look up the Latin word "dexter" from which we derive the word " dexterity ".

For most, the right hand works better than the left

 

[blackstrap]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"dexter"

Then there is that killer of killers!!!!!😁

[telnetd]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:01 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

But in any case, I think that Mormonism as a whole would view all of those in the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom as having exaltation.

According to True to the Faith, "Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the
highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and
continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible
through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, it requires our obedience to the
laws and ordinances of the Gospel (Articles of Faith 1:3)". 

I see a similar thing taught in Doctrine and Covenants 76:54-59, 94-95 and Doctrine
and Covenants 132:17. "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot
be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition,
to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are  angels of God forever and
ever".

Edited August 7, 2023 by telnetd

[telnetd]

On 8/4/2023 at 11:46 AM, teddyaware said:

But remember, Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that there is much more yet to be revealed pertaining to the plan of salvation that’s not disclosed in 76. We’re even told that no man actually knows the ultimate fate of the sons of perdition. All we know about their fate is what’s been revealed thus far, and the Lord himself says Section 76 is incomplete. When the fullness of Section 76 is finally revealed, will we again be astonished at the depth, breadth and height of the Lord’s mercy?

The Notes part of Doctrine and Covenants says "Sons of perdition suffer eternal damnation; all 
others gain some degree of salvation".

And verses 32-33 say "They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had 
been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer 
the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity".

If the sons of perdition have an end to eternal damnation, maybe the devil and his angels will too?

[telnetd]

On 8/4/2023 at 10:21 AM, CV75 said:

Eternal life is God's life and eternal/endless punishment is God's punishment. The latter still allows for a universal resurrection ("everlasting salvation") but without eternal life. They are opposite in that God wants the first and not the second (but we choose). They are not opposite in that both entail a resurrection; the first is a "fulness" and the second is not.

How is a resurrection considered a fulness or not a fulness?

[Benjamin McGuire]

Just now, telnetd said:

Do you have a scriptural reference where all those in the two lesser degrees are gods with eternal increase?

Yes and no.

When I say no, it is because the idea of three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom was a late development. It is usually defended by referring to D&C Section 131, verses 1-4. The text contains an ambiguity in this regard. It reads:

Quote

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood (meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage); And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

The ambiguity exists because the phrase "celestial glory" isn't necessarily the same as "Celestial Kingdom." In the first full length commentary on Section 131, which was published in 1919, no mention is made of a subdivided Celestial Kingdom. The first time the idea of a subdivided Celestial Kingdom is mentioned in the historical record is in 1922 (46 years after the Section is added to the canon). We know that it was not a teaching at the time of Joseph Smith because we have diagrams of the Celestial Kingdom, and it was not three tiered - it was a series of nested kingdoms. So, the idea of a subdivided kingdom is a development that comes outside of the period of canonization in scripture - and this means that there isn't a scriptural reference that really addresses the question of a subdivided Celestial Kingdom.

When I say yes, it is because until 1876, there weren't even any scriptural references that could be interpreted as allowing for subdivisions - and so most of the scriptural context doesn't provide exceptions to the idea of eternal increase. For example, this reference in Section 76 seems to suggest that everyone who enters the Celestial Kingdom are gods with eternal increase - 76:92-96:

Quote

And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever. They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion. And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

The way that this was harmonized with the idea of a sub-divided Celestial Kingdom was through the idea of eternal increase. Even the most conservative interpretations of progression in a post-mortal state allow for progression within the Celestial Kingdom. So whether or not one starts in the lowest of the three subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom, the historical view of the Church has been that those individuals can progress within the Celestial Kingdom until they are in the highest of the subdivisions.

[Benjamin McGuire]

34 minutes ago, telnetd said:

If the sons of perdition have an end to eternal damnation, maybe the devil and his angels will too?

It is certainly possible. This has been a subject of speculation for a long time. Some of this speculation is based on Section 76:44-48 -

Quote

Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment— And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

Other parts of the speculation are based on the idea that Joseph presented on everything that has a beginning also having and end - if perdition has a beginning, then in theory it may have an end. The speculation begins with Brigham Young - who said among other things:

Quote

The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.” The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 2:124.)

A lot of these speculations run counter to much more widely accepted doctrinal explanations though. Personally, I don't really have much a vested interest in worrying about it.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

The Notes part of Doctrine and Covenants says "Sons of perdition suffer eternal damnation; all 
others gain some degree of salvation".

And verses 32-33 say "They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had 
been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer 
the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity".

If the sons of perdition have an end to eternal damnation, maybe the devil and his angels will too?

One of the deadly elements that constitutes the unpardonable sin is manifested in the absolute unwillingness to seek divine pardon. One cannot be forgiven by God unless he first wants to be forgiven. So with regard to the sons of perdition, there are two central questions that need be answered: 1) Are the sons of perdition beyond God’s forgiveness because they’ve crossed a cosmic line in the sand that places them beyond the reach of God’s mercy, and for this reason he is no longer willing or able to forgive them? 2) Or is that God is still willing and able to forgive them, but in spite of this the sons of perdition still steadfastly refuse to exercise faith in Christ and repent?

One of the greatest scriptural insights we’ve received with regard to the breadth, scope and reach of Christ’s atoning sacrifice is that he descended below all things in unfathomable depths of suffering. Since the Lord suffered as if he were the lowest of the sons of perdition, why would the Father command him to needlessly endure such unspeakable horrors if there is no possibility for an eventual redemption of some sort for those condemned to outer darkness?

A possible answer to these profound questions is found in Doctrine and Covenants:

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; (Doctrine and Covenants 88)

While I’ve come to no settled conclusion about the ultimate fate of the sons of perdition (I’d be a fool to do so because Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that no man knows). Nevertheless, by employing pure logic, who can deny that the sons of perdition must needs be included in the exhaustive list of all things that exist, and the above verse implies that he descended below the sons of perdition in his suffering so that his spirit of holiness might be in and through them.

But there’s one thing about which I am certain: When the fulness of The Vision of Doctrine and Covenants 76 is finally revealed, we are all going to be absolutely gobsmacked at the extent of the love, justice, mercy and wisdom of God!

 

[CV75]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

How is a resurrection considered a fulness or not a fulness?

The glory attending a person's resurrection, or the kingdom they inherit, can be a fullness or less than the fullness that the Lord prepared and offers to all His children by virtue of His atonement. Everyone is resurrected, no matter their level or degree of resurrected glory. 

[telnetd]

On 8/7/2023 at 4:51 PM, CV75 said:

The glory attending a person's resurrection, or the kingdom they inherit, can be a fullness or less than the fullness that the Lord prepared and offers to all His children by virtue of His atonement. Everyone is resurrected, no matter their level or degree of resurrected glory.

Do those in outer darkness get some resurrection glory?

[telnetd]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:41 PM, teddyaware said:

While I’ve come to no settled conclusion about the ultimate fate of the sons of perdition (I’d be a fool to do so because Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that no man knows).

The Book of Mormon authors seem to know. Mosiah 2:38-39; Mosiah 16:5 are two examples.
This would also include the sons of perdition.

[telnetd]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:43 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Yes and no.

When I say no, it is because the idea of three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom was a late development. It is usually defended by referring to D&C Section 131, verses 1-4. The text contains an ambiguity in this regard. It reads: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the 
highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood (meaning the new and 
everlasting covenant of marriage); And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter 
into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
The ambiguity exists because the phrase "celestial glory" isn't necessarily the same as 
"Celestial Kingdom." 

 

I don’t know why you see ambiguity in 131:1-4 when Doctrine and Covenants 132:15-17 
says those not in the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom are not married, they 
are not gods, and they don’t have eternal increase.

As for the resurrected beings said to inherit a telestial and terrestrial glory, I would say
they correspond to the inhabitants of the telestial and terrestrial kingdom. Do you see
ambiguity there too?
 

On 8/7/2023 at 10:43 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

For example, this reference in Section 76 seems to suggest that everyone who enters the Celestial Kingdom are gods with eternal increase - 76:92-96:

And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even 
the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; Before whose throne all things bow 
in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever. They who dwell in his presence 
are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are 
known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power, 
and in might, and in dominion. And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory 
of the sun is one.

Yes, you can initially get that impression if you have only that part in isolation. But then
you have to erase the qualifiers for gods and eternal increase from sections 131:1-4 and
132:15-17.

Those in the two lower divisions of the celestial kingdom cannot be viewed as members of 
the Church of the Firstborn because they did not perform every ordinance to become Gods. 
I don't see them as dwelling with Heavenly Father because He is said to reside in the 
highest division.  Those in the two lower divisions apparently become ministering servants 
for those who obtain the higher glory. Section 132:15-17 shows this.

Edited August 9, 2023 by telnetd

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, telnetd said:

don’t know why you see ambiguity in 131:1-4 when Doctrine and Covenants 132:15-17 
says those not in the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom are not married, they 
are not gods, and they don’t have eternal increase.

That makes two divisions, not three.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

Do those in outer darkness get some resurrection glory?

The term "outer darkness" indicates there is no glory. Thus they "abide in a kingdom that has no glory." Some believe this means they may not even be resurrected at all, or remain resurrected; some wonder if they differ from sons of perdition somehow. This is where the left/right teaching comes in handy: why not just decide to be on the right?

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

I don’t know why you see ambiguity in 131:1-4 when Doctrine and Covenants 132:15-17 says those not in the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom are not married, they are not gods, and they don’t have eternal increase.

D&C 132:15-17 doesn't say any of this:

Quote

Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

These verses don't mention the "Celestial Kingdom," the don't mention any "divisions". It doesn't say anything about "eternal increase." Your comments are entirely an interpretive overlay. In particular, the part that reads (verse 17) "For these angels did not abide my law" refers us back to the ideas in Section 88 - here is 88:22 - "For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory." There is no reference here to subdivisions in the Celestial Kingdom.

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

As for the resurrected beings said to inherit a telestial and terrestrial glory, I would say they correspond to the inhabitants of the telestial and terrestrial kingdom. Do you see ambiguity there too?

No, and I am not following your argument here.

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Yes, you can initially get that impression if you have only that part in isolation. But then you have to erase the qualifiers for gods and eternal increase from sections 131:1-4 and 132:15-17.

I don't know what you are reading, but it isn't the text ... Joseph Smith taught that eternal marriage was necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom - not for entrance into the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. Joseph nowhere taught a subdivided Celestial Kingdom. As I said, we have contemporary descriptions of the way that Joseph Smith and his contemporaries envisioned the Celestial Kingdom - and it is not what you are describing. Here is Orson Hyde's version (published in 1844).

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Those in the two lower divisions of the celestial kingdom cannot be viewed as members of the Church of the Firstborn because they did not perform every ordinance to become Gods. I don't see them as dwelling with Heavenly Father because He is said to reside in the highest division.  Those in the two lower divisions apparently become ministering servants for those who obtain the higher glory. Section 132:15-17 shows this.

And you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Benjamin McGuire]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

That makes two divisions, not three.

You can always divide people into three groups: those who can count, and those who can't.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

No, and I am not following your argument here.

I think they mean since celestial glory is used, it must refer to the celestial kingdom only just as Telestial and Terrestrial do….disregarding that celestial is used in a broader sense as well.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I think they mean since celestial glory is used, it must refer to the celestial kingdom only just as Telestial and Terrestrial do….disregarding that celestial is used in a broader sense as well.

Section 132 doesn't use the words Celestial. So it becomes problematic to say, as they did that:

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

Those in the two lower divisions of the celestial kingdom cannot be viewed as members of the Church of the Firstborn because they did not perform every ordinance to become Gods. I don't see them as dwelling with Heavenly Father because He is said to reside in the highest division.  Those in the two lower divisions apparently become ministering servants for those who obtain the higher glory. Section 132:15-17 shows this.

Section 132 doesn't show any of this in terms of subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom.