Mosiah 5:8-15 - the left and right hand of God

[telnetd]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:13 PM, Calm said:

That makes two divisions, not three.

I didn't understand your comment. Are you saying you believe those in the two lower divisions
of the celestial kingdom are also gods with eternal increase?

[telnetd]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:53 PM, CV75 said:

The term "outer darkness" indicates there is no glory. Thus they "abide in a kingdom that has no glory." Some believe this means they may not even be resurrected at all, or remain resurrected; some wonder if they differ from sons of perdition somehow. This is where the left/right teaching comes in handy: why not just decide to be on the right?

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory

The first line in that article said "Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected".

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, telnetd said:

The first line in that article said "Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected".

That is fine with me, just bringing up what some others might believe. I suppose they might read this from the same perspective as when they suppose that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be exalted, but they choose otherwise.

At any rate, don't you agree it is best to lean right in one's attitude toward immortality, resurrection, eternal life and exaltation, each a gift through Christ's atonement?

[telnetd]

42 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That is fine with me, just bringing up what some others might believe. I suppose they might read this from the same perspective as when they suppose that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be exalted, but they choose otherwise.

At any rate, don't you agree it is best to lean right in one's attitude toward immortality, resurrection, eternal life and exaltation, each a gift through Christ's atonement?

I don't think immortality is a gift since all people are said to be eternal beings, never created, forever
to exist in some form (Abraham 3).  Resurrection is a gift because all people will receive it regardless
of what they do or don't do. Eternal life (exaltation) is an earned gift/reward for following all the
commandments (celestial marriage, word of wisdom, etc).  This is unlike a gift received on Christmas;
which is unmerited  (unless one believes in Santa Claus and his good and naughty list).

[telnetd]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:35 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

D&C 132:15-17 doesn't say any of this:

"Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my 
word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their 
covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the 
world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. Therefore, 
when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are 
appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those 
who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these 
angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and 
singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth 
are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever".

From Kingdoms of Glory that cv75 mentioned, it says

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within 
the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family 
relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true 
to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest 
degree of celestial glory. (See Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter 
into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this 
life or the next.

Which inhabitants do you believe D&C 132:15-17 (quoted above, they are not gods but separate 
and single; unmarried angels forever and ever) is referring to:  the other two degrees of the 
celestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdom, telestial kingdom, or all of these four?
 

On 8/9/2023 at 2:35 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

No, and I am not following your argument here.

Is there a difference in type of glory for a person who inherits the telestial glory versus 
a person who becomes an inhabitant of the telestial kingdom?
 

On 8/9/2023 at 2:35 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

I don't know what you are reading, but it isn't the text ... Joseph Smith taught that eternal marriage was necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom - not for entrance into the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. Joseph nowhere taught a subdivided Celestial Kingdom. As I said, we have contemporary descriptions of the way that Joseph Smith and his contemporaries envisioned the Celestial Kingdom - and it is not what you are describing. Here is Orson Hyde's version (published in 1844).

And you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let me explain further in your view of my interpretive overlay.

Taken in isolation, D&C 76 can be used to say that all members of the 3 degrees or 
divisions of the celestial kingdom are members of the Church of the Firstborn.  But 
when we read D&C sections 131 and 132, they shed more light on section 76.

"They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands 
the Father has given aall things. They are they who are priests and kings, who have 
received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after 
the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the 
order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even 
the sons of God" (verses 54-58).

When you take these verses with support from D&C 131:1-4 and 132:15-17, do you see 
single or married gods in the two lower degrees or divisions of the celestial 
kingdom?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

I don't think immortality is a gift since all people are said to be eternal beings, never created, forever
to exist in some form (Abraham 3).  Resurrection is a gift because all people will receive it regardless
of what they do or don't do. Eternal life (exaltation) is an earned gift/reward for following all the
commandments (celestial marriage, word of wisdom, etc).  This is unlike a gift received on Christmas;
which is unmerited  (unless one believes in Santa Claus and his good and naughty list).

Eternal beings can appreciate immortality as a gift once they appreciate the plan of salvation. If you consider Satan and the devils to be eternal beings, they are not immortal since they rejected the plan (and as a result, have no mortal experience with which to compare their estate, and so cannot perceive it as immortal). Those who come into this second estate had faith and hope in the plan, enabling them to adopt the paradigm of immortality, even in anticipation. This knowledge in itself is a gift. If you do not consider Satan and the devils to be eternal beings, do you consider their discontinuance a gift to them? I guess it depends on your description of “eternal [adjective]” and “being [gerund].” In either case, don't you agree it is best to lean right in one's attitude toward immortality, resurrection, eternal life and exaltation, each a gift through Christ's atonement?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, telnetd said:

I didn't understand your comment. Are you saying you believe those in the two lower divisions
of the celestial kingdom are also gods with eternal increase?

No, I am saying your example isn’t useful for demonstrating there are three divisions in the CK since you only provided evidence there are possibly two. 

[telnetd]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:45 PM, CV75 said:

Eternal beings can appreciate immortality as a gift once they appreciate the plan of salvation. If you consider Satan and the devils to be eternal beings, they are not immortal since they rejected the plan (and as a result, have no mortal experience with which to compare their estate, and so cannot perceive it as immortal). Those who come into this second estate had faith and hope in the plan, enabling them to adopt the paradigm of immortality, even in anticipation. This knowledge in itself is a gift. If you do not consider Satan and the devils to be eternal beings, do you consider their discontinuance a gift to them? I guess it depends on your description of “eternal [adjective]” and “being [gerund].” In either case, don't you agree it is best to lean right in one's attitude toward immortality, resurrection, eternal life and exaltation, each a gift through Christ's atonement?

Yes.  It is best to be on the right hand.

You mentioned Satan and the devils are not immortal because they rejected the plan. Were 
Adam and Eve (who are believed to have accepted the plan) immortal in the Garden of Eden 
before the Fall?

[telnetd]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:33 PM, Calm said:

No, I am saying your example isn’t useful for demonstrating there are three divisions in the CK since you only provided evidence there are possibly two. 

I may have missed including this passage before.

"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain 
the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the dnew and 
everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may 
enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" 
(section 131:1-4).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Yes.  It is best to be on the right hand.

You mentioned Satan and the devils are not immortal because they rejected the plan. Were 
Adam and Eve (who are believed to have accepted the plan) immortal in the Garden of Eden 
before the Fall?

I think it is best to be on the right hand, but don't you agree it is best to lean right in one's attitude toward immortality, resurrection, eternal life and exaltation, each a gift through Christ's atonement, until we stand at the right hand?

More precisely, I mentioned that if you consider Satan and the devils to be eternal beings (do you?), Satan and the devils had no mortal experience (whether by faith in or by realization of the second estate) and so could not comprehend themselves as immortal; they just continued to think of themselves are as they always had. I don't think "eternal being" and "immortality" are always the same thing; lots of semantic opportunities here.

But yes, I believe Adam and Eve were immortal in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. They may or may not have comprehended themselves as such since they had forgotten the previous estate and the plan of happiness. But they were also told they would die if they partook of the forbidden fruit, so they sensed something of a warning in opposition to their enjoyments. My understanding is that the difference between their comprehension and Satan's is that they had the physical experience of having bodies, and an affinity with the Lord who visited and taught them and in Whom they trusted, and whatever enjoyment their time in the Garden provided them.

ETA:  Romans 8 is helpful in showing how this works:

Verses 20-23 describe how God made us subject to vanity (tribulation, frustration) so that we might, in our suffering, choose to reach out to that light He gave us from birth (including the intercession of the Spirit from verse 25) and thus exercise multiple divine traits (as named in the surrounding and remaining verses: waiting for the adoption, hope, faith, patience, prayer, love of God, unity with Him).

Verse 23 speaks of redemption of our body, which refers to overcoming the carnal mind (verses 7 and 37-39) or spiritual rebirth and physical resurrection (verse 11).

The physical body is therefore the link between our experiencing immortality and not, whether it is faith in the plan of redemption or our realization of mortality. Adam and Eve (and we) have these, Satan and the devils do not.

Edited August 14, 2023 by CV75

[Couganova]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:34 AM, telnetd said:

I can understand that only those in the highest level of the celestial kingdom have eternal
life (being on His right hand), but I found verse 14 a little harsh when it likens those on 
the left side (without eternal life) to an animal to be driven away and cast out.

You realize this is scapegoat imagery from the Day of Atonement?

[teddyaware]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:34 AM, telnetd said:

Mosiah 5:8-15 says that those who have not entered into the covenant with God and are not 
obedient to the end of their lives end up on the left hand of God. They don't have the seal 
of Christ on them and they don't have everlasting salvation and eternal life like those on 
God's right hand, who took upon them the name of Christ. Those who would not take upon them 
the name of Christ would be called by some other name.

I can understand that only those in the highest level of the celestial kingdom have eternal
life (being on His right hand), but I found verse 14 a little harsh when it likens those on 
the left side (without eternal life) to an animal to be driven away and cast out.  

A few other verses from the Book of Mormon and one from the Doctrine and Covenants also speak 
of those on either the left or right hand of God.

Alma 5:58 - "For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them 
will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against 
this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be 
fulfilled".

Ether 12:4 - "Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, 
even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls 
of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to 
glorify God".

Doctrine and Covenants 19:5-7 - "Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but 
woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my 
left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it 
is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express 
than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for 
my name's glory".

Is endless torment and eternal damnation for those on the left (the D&C quote) the opposite of 
everlasting salvation (the Mosiah quote)?

You’re laboring under the burden of an extreme doctrinal misconception that will continually lead you down erroneous paths and cause constant confusion and frustration until you’re able to eliminate said misconception from your thought processes. The fact of the matter is that at time of the final judgement the only individuals who will be found on the left hand of God will be the sons of perdition, for all the rest will ultimately receive forgiveness of their sins through faith in Christ and repentance, and go on inherit a glorious dominion in one of God’s mansions of heavenly glory. If you are able to read, digest and comprehend the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 you will be disabused of the incorrect perceptions that appear to be causing you so much angst. And after studying the following verses, it’s essential that you understand the only individuals who will be found on God’s left hand are his sworn, implacable enemies, the sons of perdition, who utterly refuse to acknowledge Christ as their Savior, repent of their sins and be saved.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the sins the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorified the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

and…

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Edited August 14, 2023 by teddyaware

[Benjamin McGuire]

On 8/11/2023 at 1:34 PM, telnetd said:

From Kingdoms of Glory that cv75 mentioned, it says

I am not going to argue about what the LDS Church may believe today. I am telling you that the idea of a subdivided Celestial Kingdom doesn't show up until the 20th century in LDS literature. "Kingdoms of Glory" is irrelevant to that position.

The New and Everlasting Covenant of Section 132 dealt with the sealing power. While it was used to marry people together in eternal marriage (and as part of Section 132 into polygamous marriages - which was the original context of Section 132), there were several other types of sealing. One of the most prevalent types of sealings that occurred was the sealing of adoption. Early Mormons were rarely sealed to their parents. Why? Unless the father had been ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood while alive, sealings were not performed for them after they had died. The groundwork for the changes needed to produce what happens today started in 1877 - the year that proxy priesthood ordinations to the Melchizedek priesthood first started. Even with that in place, LDS temple policy remained in place that sealings between biological parents and their children were not performed unless the father had received the Melchizedek priesthood before death. That policy was changed in 1894. Prior to that shift, people were sealed to others using a sealing of adoption. And, if you go back to the link I provided earlier of Orson Hyde's drawing of the organization of the Celestial Kingdom (1844), you will see that the hierarchical structure of the Celestial Kingdom meant that if you were worried about the potential placement of your own kingdom, you would want to be sealed to a major figure in the LDS Church. Most of the members of the Church whose parents were not members were sealed by adoption to one of the apostles of the Church. When the LDS people abandoned Nauvoo, and settled temporarily in Winter Quarters, WiIlford Woodruff tells us in his journal that they were organized by tribes - using those sealings of adoptions as identifiers. As a side note, John D. Lee (MMM) identified himself as a son of Brigham Young - even though the relationship was one of these sealings of adoption and not a biological or legal relationship. In 1894, when the policy changed, many LDS members canceled their sealings of adoption and were sealed to their biological parents - and this was a part of the changing views of the hierarchy of the Celestial Kingdom.

On 8/11/2023 at 1:34 PM, telnetd said:

Is there a difference in type of glory for a person who inherits the telestial glory versus 
a person who becomes an inhabitant of the telestial kingdom?

The challenge is that Telestial isn't a word with other meanings. 'Celestial' is used in two ways in early Mormonism. One means the narrow, technical term used for one of the three degrees of Glory (celestial, telestial, and terrestrial). The other meaning is the standard dictionary definition which means heaven more generally. Section 131 can be read in this second sense as saying: "In the heavenly glory there are three heavens or degrees." Such an ambiguity doesn't exist for the term Telestial. The reason why it is unlikely that the word is used in the first sense here is that there is no recorded mention of subdivisions in the Celestial Kingdom at any time in Mormon literature until the 20th century. So that means that even if it is possible to read Section 131 in the way that you do, no one actually did so (at least not in a recorded way) until the 20th century - and this includes published authorized commentaries on the section that were written after Section 131 was first published.

On 8/11/2023 at 1:34 PM, telnetd said:

When you take these verses with support from D&C 131:1-4 and 132:15-17, do you see single or married gods in the two lower degrees or divisions of the celestial kingdom?

My point here is this - Mormonism currently teaches that even if you are not married when you enter the Celestial Kingdom (as would be the case for all of those infants that are guaranteed entrance into the Celestial Kingdom by an early death before the age of 8), upward mobility is possible - so that those who start in the lowest degree of the Celestial Kingdom can rise to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom in the eternities that follow the end of our mortal condition. Even for this question that you raise, the "Kingdoms of Glory" tells us -

Quote

All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

So the distinction we try to make between these different subdivision is, in many ways, completely irrelevant.

Finally, when you ask this question, I would be curious to know what authoritative sources you can produce that qualities separate participation in the bottom tier of the Celestial Kingdom from participation in the middle tier.

[telnetd]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:38 PM, Couganova said:

You realize this is scapegoat imagery from the Day of Atonement?

Never thought of it that way. So all those on the left side, not inheriting eternal life, are
viewed as scapegoats.

[telnetd]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:12 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

I am not going to argue about what the LDS Church may believe today. I am telling you that the idea of a subdivided Celestial Kingdom doesn't show up until the 20th century in LDS literature. "Kingdoms of Glory" is irrelevant to that position.

In 1894, when the policy changed, many LDS members canceled their sealings of adoption and were sealed to their biological parents - and this was a part of the changing views of the hierarchy of the Celestial Kingdom.

I would say the 1843 teaching (in the 19th century) by Joseph Smith is the reason the 
LDS Church continued teaching this in our day.

“In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the 
highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and 
everlasting covenant of marriage];” (131:1-2).
 

On 8/15/2023 at 3:12 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

My point here is this - Mormonism currently teaches that even if you are not married when you enter the Celestial Kingdom (as would be the case for all of those infants that are guaranteed entrance into the Celestial Kingdom by an early death before the age of 8), upward mobility is possible - so that those who start in the lowest degree of the Celestial Kingdom can rise to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom in the eternities that follow the end of our mortal condition. 

Into which of the three heavens of the celestial kingdom would those infants initially 
enter into?

Do you have a link to the teaching (s) which show upward  mobility is possible and is 
this only for those in the two other heavens of the Celestial Kingdom or does it also 
apply to the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms too?
 

On 8/15/2023 at 3:12 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Finally, when you ask this question, I would be curious to know what authoritative sources you can produce that qualities separate participation in the bottom tier of the Celestial Kingdom from participation in the middle tier.

I don’t know of any LDS teachings which discuss all qualities for those in the bottom 
and middle tiers of the Celestial Kingdom. All I can gather is that they are unmarried 
and they are not gods.

[telnetd]

On 8/14/2023 at 5:42 PM, teddyaware said:

The fact of the matter is that at time of the final judgement the only individuals who will be found on the left hand of God will be the sons of perdition, for all the rest will ultimately receive forgiveness of their sins through faith in Christ and repentance, and go on inherit a glorious dominion in one of God’s mansions of heavenly glory.

Do you see anyone on the right hand of God who does not inherit eternal life?
 

On 8/14/2023 at 5:42 PM, teddyaware said:

And after studying the following verses, it’s essential that you understand the only individuals who will be found on God’s left hand are his sworn, implacable enemies, the sons of perdition, who utterly refuse to acknowledge Christ as their Savior, repent of their sins and be saved.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Doctrine and Covenants 76:103-106 has the telestial inhabitants (liars, sorcerers, 
adulterers, and whoremongers) entering hell for a time and then being released.  
According to verse 111, they will be judged according to their evil works and still 
receive a dominion in their own mansion prepared for them.

Revelation 21:8 says the “fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, 
and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part 
in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 

Are the telestial inhabitants in the first resurrection?
 

Quote

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, 
which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and 
his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which 
is their torment. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

This Joseph Smith revelation was given after Doctrine and Covenants 76.

“Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and 
the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be 
crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward 
every man according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and 
their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire" (101:65-66).

It seems the terrestrial and telestial inhabitants are not regarded as God’s people.

[telnetd]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:47 AM, CV75 said:

I think it is best to be on the right hand, but don't you agree it is best to lean right in one's attitude toward immortality, resurrection, eternal life and exaltation, each a gift through Christ's atonement, until we stand at the right hand?

Yes. But the way I understand eternal life (which the church defines as exaltation), this 
so-called 'gift' must be earned by keeping all the commandments and faithfully enduring to 
the end. 

This reminds me of a video I saw on the church’s website. It was given by President Bonnie 
H. Cordon at the 2022 First Presidency’s Christmas devotional.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2022-12-1010-president-bonnie-h-cordon?lang=eng

She shared the story of a boy (Harold) who was asked by his father to give his train set 
to his brother (Arnold) for Christmas. 

Apart from gratefully accepting the gift, did Arnold need to do anything else (like asking 
forgiveness for offences he had committed against Harold or by doing good deeds towards 
his other family members or neighbors) to deserve this gift from his brother?
 

On 8/14/2023 at 11:47 AM, CV75 said:

More precisely, I mentioned that if you consider Satan and the devils to be eternal beings (do you?),

I don’t believe Satan and the devil are eternal beings. They were created.
 

On 8/14/2023 at 11:47 AM, CV75 said:

ETA:  Romans 8 is helpful in showing how this works:

Verses 20-23 describe how God made us subject to vanity (tribulation, frustration) so that we might, in our suffering, choose to reach out to that light He gave us from birth (including the intercession of the Spirit from verse 25) and thus exercise multiple divine traits (as named in the surrounding and remaining verses: waiting for the adoption, hope, faith, patience, prayer, love of God, unity with Him).

Verse 23 speaks of redemption of our body, which refers to overcoming the carnal mind (verses 7 and 37-39) or spiritual rebirth and physical resurrection (verse 11).

Romans 8:4-17 speaks of those who live after the flesh as opposed to living through the 
Spirit. Only those led by the Spirit of God are the children of God (the joint-heirs with 
Christ).  LDS church teaching views the joint-heirs as gods (future exalted beings).

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 minute ago, telnetd said:

I would say the 1843 teaching (in the 19th century) by Joseph Smith is the reason the LDS Church continued teaching this in our day.

“In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];” (131:1-2).

This wasn't an 1843 teaching. It was recorded in a personal journal. Except for a small handful of people (three plus Joseph Smith), no one would be aware of this teaching for years. It wouldn't be presented to the Church until 1880, and then it wouldn't be interpreted in the way that you discuss it for a few more decades. The actual journal entry of those verses reads:

Quote

He also said that in the celestial glory there was three heavens or degrees, and in order to obtain the highest a man must enter into this order of the priesthood and if he dont he cant obtain it. He may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom he cannot have an increase.

The idea of this referring to the three heavens or the three degrees of glory (both terms used by Joseph Smith to refer to the three kingdoms - Celestial, Telestial, Terrestrial. And I note this definition provided by the Church:

Quote

Differing kingdoms in heaven. At the Final Judgment, each person will inherit an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory, except those who are sons of Perdition.

At any rate, if you aren't going to accept this, then there probably isn't any use further trying to convince you ...

3 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Into which of the three heavens of the celestial kingdom would those infants initially enter into?

I am not aware of any explicit statement on this issue - this is about as close as it comes:

Quote

To obtain the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, those who are accountable must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage (see Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–3). Little children who die will have this opportunity in the future. President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: “The Lord will grant unto these children the privilege of all the sealing blessings which pertain to exaltation. … When they grow, after the resurrection, to the full maturity of the spirit, they will be entitled to all the blessings which they would have been entitled to had they been privileged to tarry here and receive them.”

This should answer a number of points that you bring up though - that they cannot (in the current theology) enter into the highest degree in the celestial kingdom without being married, and that they will have that opportunity at some point after the resurrection.

As far as the debate over advancement, there was a period of time in which both sides were offered. Rather than digging it all up, here is a single location with many of the relevant statements.

25 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I don’t know of any LDS teachings which discuss all qualities for those in the bottom and middle tiers of the Celestial Kingdom. All I can gather is that they are unmarried and they are not gods.

And this is my point. In the past there were a range of explanations that don't work anymore. During polygamy a distinction was made between those who married one wife and those who married more than one. For a long while there was recognition that black members could enter the Celestial Kingdom (they could be baptized) but not the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom (they couldn't be ordained to the priesthood and so could not be sealed in marriage). But there isn't any sense of a formal set of restrictions in part because this was a later addition to LDS Doctrines - and none of the early leadership had anything to say about it because it didn't actually exist then.

[telnetd]

On 8/17/2023 at 3:08 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

As far as the debate over advancement, there was a period of time in which both sides were offered. Rather than digging it all up, here is a single location with many of the relevant statements.

That was a good article.  It sounds like even the liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers (D&C 76:103)
will have a chance to become Gods some day.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

That was a good article.  It sounds like even the liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers (D&C 76:103)
will have a chance to become Gods some day.

The following verse from Doctrine and Covenants 76 is almost always misunderstood by members of the church.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

When reading this verse in isolation from the verses that immediately follow, an incorrect assumption is almost always made that those who enter the telestial kingdom of glory will be active “liars, sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers,” and this supposedly proves that God is so merciful that he will even save the vilest of unrepentant sinners, and he will do this as long as they haven’t committed “the unpardonable sin” that leads to perdition.

But the actual function of verse 103 is to serve an introductory statement to the following verses that describe a step-by-step process whereby these liars, sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers are able to be reclaimed from their sinful and rebellious ways, ultimately to find forgiveness and eventual redemption in one of God’s kingdoms of heavenly glory. What follows is God’s ordained redemptive process that leads even the desperately wicked to eventual forgiveness and glory, with my commentary in italics:

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. (Because of their great wickedness, the aforedescribed sinners are deprived of God’s forgiveness and covenantal blessing while living in the flesh on earth).

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. (Due to their rebellion and wickedness, they will not only be deprived of God’s blessings but they will also have to suffer torment for their own sins)

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (After death, these unrepentant sinners will be cast into hell (the spirit prison) where they will continue to suffer for their own sins until the Lord’s wrath has finally subdued them, for they will finally come to sincerely regret their sinful ways and be humbly willing to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance)

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. (The time will come when even these formerly vile sinners will receive forgiveness for their sins, and this due to the fact that their rebellious spirits will finally be subdued in humility due to the suffering they endured in “the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God”)

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the thrown of his power to reign forever and ever. (After Christ saves even these formerly vile sinners, his redeeming work will be complete and he will rest from his loving labor of salvation on his throne of glory) 

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; (The number of those Christ saves in the telestial kingdom of glory will be unimaginably great)

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; (The ultimate reason why these formerly rebellious souls will be saved in one of God’s heavenly mansions of glory will be because they are fully willing to confess to Heavenly Father that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior)

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (The works of every man and woman will determine the degree of heavenly glory they inherit. Because the formerly rebellious inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory had to be made to suffer in the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God before they were finally willing to come unto Christ and repent, they will be relegated to a lower degree of heavenly glory. Only those who are valiant in the testimony of Jesus will receive the fullness of exaltation)

Edited August 19, 2023 by teddyaware

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Because the formerly rebellious inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory had to be made to suffer in the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God before they were finally willing to come unto Christ and repent, they will be relegated to a lower degree of heavenly glory. 

I agree with your interpretations up until the very last one.  I don’t believe God is concerned with who we were in mortality so much once he has done his work, whether we were rebellious or not, but he is more focused on who we will become, whether or not we are now valiant in our testimony of Christ, but whether we will be valiant.

So all must repent and forsake their sins and accept Christ as Lord, but those who once were liars, etc who go beyond repentance, who fully embrace the Atonement and truly desire to become one with God will also have that opportunity. The Telestial Kingdom will be filled with those who do not desire that, who even though they repented and are sinless and have no desire to sin, also lack the desire to become more, to change that part of their nature that needs to be changed to be able to comprehend the things of God. 

[manol]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t believe God is concerned with who we were in mortality so much once he has done his work, whether we were rebellious or not, but he is more focused on who we will become, whether or not we are now valiant in our testimony of Christ, but whether we will be valiant. [emphasis manol's]

I think God is much more interested in our present than in our past.  And along similar lines, I believe that we experience God in the present, in the here and now. 

In other words, imo, God is now.  God is now.  God is now.  

And likewise, God is here.  God is here.  God is here. 

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, manol said:

I think God is much more interested in our present than in our past.  And along similar lines, I believe that we experience God in the present, in the here and now. 

In other words, imo, God is now.  God is now.  God is now.  

And likewise, God is here.  God is here.  God is here. 

 

I agree, but I am talking in the above case about us as resurrected beings at judgment and whether or not God is going to care at that future time about who we are now in 2023 or whenever we lived on earth or who we are at judgment time probably way past 2023.  The now I am referring to in the above is the now in our future.  I believe if we become valiant in our testimony after we die but before judgment, we will not be viewed as Telestial beings, even if we were once liars, murderers, etc.  But that is going to take a massive change of heart and being as selfish self centeredness is at the core of such behaviour imo (we care so much about ourselves and so little about others) that could be quite painful…think of someone like Lori Daybell who has murdered her own children so she could have her ideal life dancing on the beaches of Hawaii not only realizing the wrongness of her action, but the gut twisting horror she will feel when she comes to realize what she did and then magnify that by 1000s because of the insight into our actions the Spirit will be able to provide.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

That was a good article.  It sounds like even the liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers (D&C 76:103) will have a chance to become Gods some day.

I am not sure whether or not this is sarcasm - but - I think that the idea is best represented in the notion that God did not create us to fail - he wants to save as many of His children as possible - and so whatever His design was for humanity, it was with this outcome in mind. Such a perspective is at the core of all universalist theologies. That and the LDS view of an infinite atonement.

[telnetd]

On 8/19/2023 at 3:41 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

I am not sure whether or not this is sarcasm - but - I think that the idea is best represented in the notion that God did not create us to fail - he wants to save as many of His children as possible - and so whatever His design was for humanity, it was with this outcome in mind. Such a perspective is at the core of all universalist theologies. That and the LDS view of an infinite atonement.

It wasn't sarcasm.  Just an observation that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms may not have
any inhabitants if the LDS view is that God plans to have all of them (including the liars, sorcerers,
adulterers, and whoremongers) become gods.