Mosiah 5:8-15 - the left and right hand of God

[telnetd]

On 8/19/2023 at 1:15 PM, teddyaware said:

The following verse from Doctrine and Covenants 76 is almost always misunderstood by members of the church.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

When reading this verse in isolation from the verses that immediately follow, an incorrect assumption is almost always made that those who enter the telestial kingdom of glory will be active “liars, sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers,

I wasn't understanding it that way. I understood it that those in mortality that are active liars, sorcerers,
adulterers, and whoremongers would be sent to the Telestial kingdom.  As far as I know, these evil activities
do not continue in the spirit world or in that kingdom after the resurrection.

[Benjamin McGuire]

15 minutes ago, telnetd said:

It wasn't sarcasm.  Just an observation that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms may not have any inhabitants if the LDS view is that God plans to have all of them (including the liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers) become gods.

Well, as I noted, the idea that people can move from one kingdom to another is a question that has never been formally answered in LDS literature. For those that believe it is possible, what you describe is the eventual goal (empty kingdoms). But for those people to become gods, they would need to stop being liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. They can only progress if they are no longer any of those things ... so your characterization isn't really very accurate.

[telnetd]

On 8/21/2023 at 1:30 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

But for those people to become gods, they would need to stop being liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers. They can only progress if they are no longer any of those things ... so your characterization isn't really very accurate.

When do you believe they need to stop being any of those things so they can progress further?  Is
it before they die, while they are in the spirit world awaiting resurrection, or after the resurrection
and they inherit the telestial kingdom?

[Benjamin McGuire]

29 minutes ago, telnetd said:

When do you believe they need to stop being any of those things so they can progress further?  Is it before they die, while they are in the spirit world awaiting resurrection, or after the resurrection and they inherit the telestial kingdom?

Does it matter? In LDS thought, we have an eternal existence. For some, they stop in mortality, for some they stop in the spirit world awaiting resurrection, for some it may come after the resurrection during an eternal post-mortal existence, as you suggest, in the telestial kingdom. In all cases though, the LDS Church teaches that the atonement is infinite and eternal. As J. Reuben Clark taught (member of the First Presidency):

Quote

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. (J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3).

[telnetd]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:15 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Does it matter? In LDS thought, we have an eternal existence. For some, they stop in mortality, for some they stop in the spirit world awaiting resurrection, for some it may come after the resurrection during an eternal post-mortal existence, as you suggest, in the telestial kingdom. In all cases though, the LDS Church teaches that the atonement is infinite and eternal. As J. Reuben Clark taught (member of the First Presidency):

Mention of eternal progression, yes, I have heard of it.  But I have never seen any LDS teachings
hinting that adultery, witchcraft, and other abominations may continue to happen in the telestial,
terrestrial, and possibly even in the celestial kingdoms.

[Benjamin McGuire]

45 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Mention of eternal progression, yes, I have heard of it.  But I have never seen any LDS teachings hinting that adultery, witchcraft, and other abominations may continue to happen in the telestial, terrestrial, and possibly even in the celestial kingdoms.

You have me really confused here. I haven't suggested (I don't think) that the behavior continues past mortality. And if you read me as making such a suggestion, I apologize for the confusion. Mormonism doesn't teach this, or believe it. What Mormonism teaches is that our mortal existence (and our relative actions here) determine where we begin our post-mortal condition. And, Mormonism teaches, to a lesser or greater extent, our post-mortal condition is subject to change as we become more god-like. A person who commits adultery in their mortality may be labeled an adulterer, and this may impact where they being their post-mortal condition. But, the adulterer who repents, accepts the atonement, and changes so that they no longer desire to sin, is no longer an adulterer, and is potentially able to progress towards exaltation in a post-mortal condition. Although there is no formal doctrinal statement on the issue of whether or not there are limits to the progression that individuals can experience in that post-mortal state, some LDS leaders have taught that given enough time and progress (and we know that there is enough time), such a person could reach exaltation.

To bring this back to the original issue that brought up this digression, it is a position of LDS theology that those who inherit the bottom two subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom can progress to the top subdivision. LDS doctrine leaves open the possibility that anyone who inherits a kingdom of glory can progress to that same top subdivision given enough time and progress. Because of this, any reference that suggests that people are consigned to a specific kingdom or degree of glory following their mortality refers only to their immediate assignment upon being resurrected, and not to their final destination. Further, since we speak of eternities, and that such progression from kingdom to kingdom must be of a finite duration, we can say that they will spend most of their eternal existence in that final destination and not in the state in which they are immediate consigned following their resurrection.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Benjamin McGuire

[telnetd]

On 8/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

You have me really confused here. I haven't suggested (I don't think) that the behavior continues past mortality. And if you read me as making such a suggestion, I apologize for the confusion. Mormonism doesn't teach this, or believe it. What Mormonism teaches is that our mortal existence (and our relative actions here) determine where we begin our post-mortal condition. And, Mormonism teaches, to a lesser or greater extent, our post-mortal condition is subject to change as we become more god-like. A person who commits adultery in their mortality may be labeled an adulterer, and this may impact where they being their post-mortal condition. But, the adulterer who repents, accepts the atonement, and changes so that they no longer desire to sin, is no longer an adulterer, and is potentially able to progress towards exaltation in a post-mortal condition. Although there is no formal doctrinal statement on the issue of whether or not there are limits to the progression that individuals can experience in that post-mortal state, some LDS leaders have taught that given enough time and progress (and we know that there is enough time), such a person could reach exaltation.

To bring this back to the original issue that brought up this digression, it is a position of LDS theology that those who inherit the bottom two subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom can progress to the top subdivision. LDS doctrine leaves open the possibility that anyone who inherits a kingdom of glory can progress to that same top subdivision given enough time and progress. Because of this, any reference that suggests that people are consigned to a specific kingdom or degree of glory following their mortality refers only to their immediate assignment upon being resurrected, and not to their final destination. Further, since we speak of eternities, and that such progression from kingdom to kingdom must be of a finite duration, we can say that they will spend most of their eternal existence in that final destination and not in the state in which they are immediate consigned following their resurrection.

Thank you for that in-depth explanation. It sounds like, given enough time, the telestial and terrestrial
kingdoms may become uninhabited.

[Benjamin McGuire]

6 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Thank you for that in-depth explanation. It sounds like, given enough time, the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms may become uninhabited.

Yes, I am inclined to believe that - and of course, the concept of eternity means that we will be given enough time.

[CV75]

On 8/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

You have me really confused here. I haven't suggested (I don't think) that the behavior continues past mortality. And if you read me as making such a suggestion, I apologize for the confusion. Mormonism doesn't teach this, or believe it. What Mormonism teaches is that our mortal existence (and our relative actions here) determine where we begin our post-mortal condition. And, Mormonism teaches, to a lesser or greater extent, our post-mortal condition is subject to change as we become more god-like. A person who commits adultery in their mortality may be labeled an adulterer, and this may impact where they being their post-mortal condition. But, the adulterer who repents, accepts the atonement, and changes so that they no longer desire to sin, is no longer an adulterer, and is potentially able to progress towards exaltation in a post-mortal condition. Although there is no formal doctrinal statement on the issue of whether or not there are limits to the progression that individuals can experience in that post-mortal state, some LDS leaders have taught that given enough time and progress (and we know that there is enough time), such a person could reach exaltation.

To bring this back to the original issue that brought up this digression, it is a position of LDS theology that those who inherit the bottom two subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom can progress to the top subdivision. LDS doctrine leaves open the possibility that anyone who inherits a kingdom of glory can progress to that same top subdivision given enough time and progress. Because of this, any reference that suggests that people are consigned to a specific kingdom or degree of glory following their mortality refers only to their immediate assignment upon being resurrected, and not to their final destination. Further, since we speak of eternities, and that such progression from kingdom to kingdom must be of a finite duration, we can say that they will spend most of their eternal existence in that final destination and not in the state in which they are immediate consigned following their resurrection.

There remains the caveat that our final destination represents the glory we are willing to enjoy, and this may differ from person to person no matter the glory by which they are quickened.