On Representation of the 3 Witnesses in the Media

[Tacenda]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would love to see photos from where you and others live.  We should start a thread in Social for this purpose.  That would be fun.  

That would be awesome, I wonder how easy it is for those that are on "limited" status. I could try it and see.

[Hamilton Porter]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Yes that would be an amazing idea. ! For some day. Thank you for that idea dear Hamilton Porter. 

Fatima is a little far north though. And it's not a big city. More a village. With poor public transportation i guess. And i don't have a care. 

If you make it up there, tell us if you see Virgin Mary.

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yes that would be an amazing idea. ! For some day. Thank you for that idea dear Hamilton Porter. 

Fatima is a little far north though. And it's not a big city. More a village. With poor public transportation i guess. And i don't have a care. 

Can you guys not ask me to make foto's from places close to where i live. In Miratejo! There are so manny beautiful places near Miratejo. Especially in the direction of the west. And yes i wanna make photo's because i just can tast it that you guys really wanna know for sure that i'm really living in Portugal.  But i really do guys. Please give it a break.

 

Out of curiosity, I checked Google for public transportation options from Miratejo to the Basillica of the Most Holy Trinity in Fatima.  And I think you're in luck.  Looks like there is regular bus service out of Lisbon (every hour) which drops you off only a 6-minute walk from the basilica.  And of course, there's regular bus service between Miratejo and Lisbon. 

It'd still be a full day adventure (it's a 2-hour travel by bus in each direction), so it's no small commitment.  But it certainly could be doable.  

Edited May 5, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I would love to see photos from where you and others live.  We should start a thread in Social for this purpose.  That would be fun.  

I will make a topic in Social. Tomorrow. You guys tell me where i need to go (please close where i live. And i will go there and make photo's. I also will make a hand gesture on your request so that you guys know for sure that it is me.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

17 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Out of curiosity, I checked Google for public transportation options from Miratejo to the Basillica of the Most Holy Trinity in Fatima.  And I think you're in luck.  Looks like there is regular bus service out of Lisbon (every hour) which drops you off only a 6-minute walk from the basilica.  And of course, there's regular bus service between Miratejo and Lisbon. 

It'd still be a full day adventure (it's a 2-hour travel by bus in each direction), so it's no small commitment.  But it certainly could be doable.  

2 hour travel l!!  Okay well...we need to wait a while for Fatima. Tell me just a close location. 

[Pyreaux]

Or we could also ignore newbie Henry, who may have a case of "projection" (the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds).

[smac97]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:31 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

I have not seen any full account of the plates witnesses by anyone lampooning the faith or even trying to fairly give an account of the church. They could be fair about everything else.

1. Musical: Didn't mention the witnesses at all. Said Joseph claimed to keep the plates to himself.

Yep.  Grappling with the Witnesses would be hard to fit into the "those duped Mormons" narrative.

On 5/3/2023 at 11:31 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

2. Religion graphs YouTube series: Says witnesses all early founders of Mormonism. Said nothing about the witnesses affirming their testimonies even after leaving the faith.

3. There was another YouTube series that claimed that leaving the faith was implicit renegment. Also didn't mention the witnesses affirming their testimonies.

4. I could mention what Mike Winger (an evangelical Christian said), but it's not worth it.

Only JK Rowling on Twitter was somewhat fair, citing there's a debate over whether it was a mystical experience or actual.

She had attended the Book of Mormon musical the night before her tweet (see here).  I think she was influenced by that.

On 5/3/2023 at 11:31 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

Ann Taeves at UT Austin was intellectually honest to admit they were plates, although not ancient. She says JS consecrated them through a sacrament.

I appreciate Taves' efforts, and I agree she is being "intellectually honest," and I admire her willingness to grapple with the historical record and its evidence of a physical/tangible artifact.  

Kevin Christensen wrote up an assessment in 2018: Playing to an Audience: A Review of Revelatory Events

Also Stephen Smoot: Et Incarnatus Est: The Imperative for Book of Mormon Historicity

Both are worth reading.

On 5/3/2023 at 11:31 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

The witnesses are clearly something they had to dance around.

Yep.  Daniel Peterson has really been focusing on this point for a while:

Tangible Restoration: The Eye Witnesses of The Book of Mormon (2006 FAIR Conference presentation)

"The Book of Mormon Witnesses: Variety and Complexity" by Dan Peterson from our 2020 conference

Daniel C. Peterson - The Witnesses: Variety and Complexity (Stanford Institute Fireside) (2021 Stanford Institute Fireside)

"The Book of Mormon Witnesses: Sincerity and Reality" by Dan Peterson from the 2021 FAIR Conference (2021 FAIR Conference presentation)

Daniel Peterson: Witnesses Assembled (2022 talk at Ensign College)

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:53 AM, Dario_M said:

Really great topic.

It's funny because a few months ago i asked this question in my church. I literaly asked: "hey churchmembers where are the golden plates right now on this verry moment?" And nobody of them really had an answer on my question. So i tryed it again (because i'm always really curious you know) and i asked: "are the Golden plates now somewhere in a museum or so?" And after that question one of the guys in my ward said to me that the golden plates went to heaven after Joseph Smith had read them all. The golden plates just lifted up to the heavens. 🤔

The Plates were returned to the Angel Moroni (see here).

On 5/4/2023 at 5:53 AM, Dario_M said:

Well.. i may be a Mormon now, baptized received the holy ghost and received the Aaronic Priesthood. But you would never hear me say that those plates have really do exist for real. Or that those plates have lifted up to the heavens. I would never claim that as the real and only TRUTH. Because i just don't know. I wasn't there on that moment.

We weren't there for the miraculous events described in the New Testament, either.  And yet Christians everywhere profess these things as having happened.  Based on faith.

On 5/4/2023 at 5:53 AM, Dario_M said:

And where are those plates right now? If they really did exist they still should be somewhere right? 

Yes.  Similar questions could be asked about the coat of Joseph, the Rod of Aaron, the Ark of the Covenant, the and so on.

On 5/4/2023 at 5:53 AM, Dario_M said:

So i just don't know or the Golden plates really existed or not.

That's okay.  We're all in a process.

On 5/4/2023 at 5:53 AM, Dario_M said:

Maybe they did (and still do) exist (somewhere). Maybe not. I simply just don't know what i need to think about that. 

I believe they existed, and that there is pretty good evidence of that.  But it's still a question of faith.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 5/4/2023 at 7:57 AM, Teancum said:

Quote

He gave them back to Moroni.

Oh yea you bet.  So convenient. And I have a bridge to sell to you.

"Jesus resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven.  That is why his tomb is empty."

"Oh yea you bet.  So convenient. And I have a bridge to sell to you."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I will make a topic in Social. Tomorrow. You guys tell me where i need to go (please close where i live. And i will go there and make photo's. I also will make a hand gesture on your request so that you guys know for sure that it is me.

If you really want to go to the trouble, but I have no doubt you are who you say you are. And I think it'd be fun to just share with each other our favorite photos. 

[smac97]

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think the witnesses are the best evidence for Mormonism, but they are still problematic.

I agree.  

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Joseph was a practiced con artist (obviously in my opinion).

That you have to hedge your assertion is pretty good evidence against it.

I commented back in July 2022:

Quote

I tend to want to judge Joseph Smith in the same way I would hope to be judged.  That is, not with an expectation or requirement of being utterly without flaw or sin, but rather someone who

• A) is sincerely and meaningfully aspiring to these things,
• B) has entered into a covenant relationship with God and is striving to keep said covenants,
• C) is regularly turning to repentance and seeking forgiveness for when behaviors fall short of aspirations, and when flaws in covenant-keeping happen, 
• D) during the duration of things hopes to "run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2); and
• E) as to all other fellow travellers (including figures such as Joseph Smith) strives to apply Mormon 9:31: "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

As for Joseph Smith's overall character relative to sincerity or guile, consider these remarks by Daniel C. Peterson (addressing claims that Joseph Smith used deceit regarding the reality of the Gold Plates) :

Quote

OK, so let’s look a little more in detail: Joseph had no plates. This is what most critics say; there were none.

All right, the first option is that he knew that he had no plates. OK. Now, this runs into a number of issues. You have to ask first of all, Was this deliberate, was it cynical or was it pious? Was he a cynical fraud, just a con-artist, 19th century con man?

I think you run into issues right there. One of the places you run into issues is with Joseph Smith’s writings, which are now being published, the personal writings of Joseph Smith, the Joseph Smith Papers. If Joseph Smith is not sincere, then I can’t judge sincerity in another human being.

This is a man who in his most personal private writings, letters to his wife, personal journal entries, they’re full of prayers. He’s praying all the time. Oh, Lord, help your servant, help me. Writing to his wife, Emma, praying, expressing prayers for her. Telling his children to be sure they say their prayers at night, this sort of thing. All the time coming across as a believer. There’s nothing, certainly there’s nothing at all in the early Joseph Smith that you could say points to someone who’s a cynical, manipulative deceiver. It’s just not there. He doesn’t let the mask fall at all. If he is one, there’s no evidence for it that I can see.

I don't need Joseph Smith to have been perfect.  I just need him to have been sincere, to have really experienced the things he claims.  The First Vision and other theophanies.  The Gold Plates and his translation of them.  The restoration of the Priesthood.  The revelations.  Discerning the verity of these things is principally an exercise in study and faith and prayer.  

If these things happened, then I will honor Joseph Smith for his virtues and efforts, forgive him his flaws and shortcomings, and leave judgment of him to the Lord.

Joseph and the other percipient witnesses to the foundational events of the Restoration seemed quite sincere and steadfast in their declarations of what they personally experienced.  Pretty much everyone else is "downstream" from them.  

I am open to the theoretical possibility of Joseph and the other percipient witnesses being collectively wrong, either via "supernatural" means (they were all deceived by Satan) or mundane means (they were all tripping on 'shrooms, or in the grip of some mass hysteria, etc.).  But I find it farfetched to characterize them as all having consciously "lied" to and "deceived" their contemporaries and those that followed.  That just seems to incongruous with the historical record.

I think DCP puts it well: "If Joseph Smith is not sincere, then I can’t judge sincerity in another human being."  If Joseph and the other witnesses were wrong, then I want to know that, but I would not attribute it to being "lied to" or "deceived."  So peremptory and unadorned accusations against him, such as yours, just do not work for me.

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

He looked in a rock to find peoples lost objects.

FAIR has addressed this:

Question: Did Joseph Smith place his seer stone in his hat while looking for lost objects?

Joseph Smith's use of seer stones as a youth

Joseph Smith used the same "rock in hat" seer stone for translating that he used for "money digging"

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

He convinced people he could see treasure buried in the earth. Treasure that magically sunk deeper whenever they dug and got close. That such a man could convince 11 people (that viewed him as Gods prophet) that they saw something? Not particularly surprising. These people were not skeptics. They believed in and practiced folk magic. 

And yet many of them thereafter became estranged from Joseph.  If they had been duped, many of them were well-situated to repudiate their statements.  None did.

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Additionally the witness statements were ghost written?

I don't understand how that is a problem.  As an attorney, I regularly write up formal affidavits for my clients to sign.  As long as the statement is accurate, the court doesn't care who actually put pen to paper (or, these days, fingers to keyboard).

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Who wrote the actual statements in the Book of Mormon?

Royal Skousen surmises that "it was most likely revealed word for word to Joseph Smith, just like the book itself."

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Where are the first person contemporaneous records from each witness.

We have all sorts of scholarship about the witnesses.  Have you read any of it?

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Who cross examined them?

Apparently not.

Oliver Cowdery Statements as One of the Three Witnesses

Martin Harris Statements as One of the Three Witnesses

David Whitmer Statements as One of the Three Witnesses

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Did they each tell the same story or were there differences? 

Where there any substantial discrepancies, errors, etc. in their statements?  No.

On 5/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

For claims as grand as those put forward by Joseph Smith’s, the witness testimony is insufficient by far. 

I quite disagree.  From Daniel Peterson's 2020 FAIR Conference presentation:

You are doing what so many others have done regarding the witnesses.  I call it "a Humperdinck," from The Princess Pride:

You are not addressing the substance of the historical record.  You are just going straight to an asserted conclusion.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Nemesis]

15 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

It's also consistent with someone in Portugal time.

This

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

 I also will make a hand gesture on your request so that you guys know for sure that it is me.

If you could flip the friendly bird from Portugal to Henry the hypocrite sock puppet, that would be just dandy. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by pogi

[pogi]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

The Plates were returned to the Angel Moroni (see here).

Depends on who you believe, according to your link. 

Some of the witnesses themselves attest that they deposited the Gold plates back in the Hill Cumorah with Joseph Smith.  

This is Brigham Youngs account of what Oliver Cowdery told him:

Quote

I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so.  I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family.  Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates.  Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants.  When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did.  Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room.  He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day.  They laid the plates on the table; it was a large table that stood in the room.  Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls.  The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words:  "This sword will neer be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ."  I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to othis meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering som things.   So is it with other circumstances in life.  I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it.  I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost.  Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things.  Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader. 

https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/1105

More accounts of the cave that holds the gold plates:

https://web.archive.org/web/20061207175946/http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=338

Edited May 5, 2023 by pogi

[Hamilton Porter]

30 minutes ago, pogi said:

Depends on who you believe, according to your link. 

Some of the witnesses themselves attest that they deposited the Gold plates back in the Hill Cumorah with Joseph Smith.  

This is Brigham Youngs account of what Oliver Cowdery told him:

More accounts of the cave that holds the gold plates:

https://web.archive.org/web/20061207175946/http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=338

A other guy said Moroni told them to deposit them back into the cave. So if you aggregate the stories, Joseph and Oliver brought them back to the cave where Moroneither has them or are caring for them.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

A other guy said Moroni told them to deposit them back into the cave. So if you aggregate the stories, Joseph and Oliver brought them back to the cave where Moroneither has them or are caring for them.

So we believe the story/s that the hill Cumorah mysteriously just opened up into a cave with wagon loads of other records, and the golden plates atop a preserved table with the sword of Laban laying across top?

Unless Moroni was carrying wagon loads of records, that would limit BoM geography theories to the Heartland model or the entire Western Hemisphere theory.

Seems like we have ways of scanning for sub-terrain cavities and stuff like that now, so be careful in what is claimed.

Edited May 5, 2023 by pogi

[Hamilton Porter]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

So we believe the story/s that the hill Cumorah mysteriously just opened up into a cave with wagon loads of other records, and the golden plates atop a preserved table with the sword of Laban laying across top?

what?

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

what?

It sounded like you were accepting Oliver Cowdery’s account and other aggravated stories of depositing them back in the hill.  But I admit I am not sure that is what you were saying as there were lots of typos etc.  If we accept Oliver Cowdery et al. accounts of depositing them back in the hill Cumorah, that is how the story goes. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by pogi

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

2 hour travel l!!  Okay well...we need to wait a while for Fatima. Tell me just a close location. 

A traveler like me!  In others words, the shorter the trip the better. 
 

How is your health these days?  Feeling any better? 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

That you have to hedge your assertion is pretty good evidence against it.

Huh?

[Saint Bonaventure]

On 5/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

Mary is more central to Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that's why she appears so much.

Central? Sure. 

But more precisely there's a worldview, grounded in Sacred Tradition, that is expressed and affirmed with supernatural appearances by Jesus' mother.

I'll try to explain it a little. Consider that the Holy Spirit's overshadowing Our Lady at the birth of Christ (Luke 1) anticipates/gestures to/prefigures the Holy Spirit's overshadowing that marks the birth of the Church at Pentecost (Acts 2). Mary was in the upper room with the apostles praying for the Holy Spirit's procession (Acts 1), and her presence at both events illuminates the mysteries of the Incarnation and Pentecost. 

I hope I'm making sense. I can try and clarify, if needed.

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

A traveler like me!  In others words, the shorter the trip the better. 
 

How is your health these days?  Feeling any better? 

My health, oh my. Unfortunatly not. 

Btw i have made the topic. Here it is.  

 

 

Sorry for the offtopic again btw. 😭 @Hamilton Porter

Edited May 6, 2023 by Dario_M

[Hamilton Porter]

8 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

https://www.Mormon*******.***/podcast/michael-coe-an-outsiders-view-of-book-of-mormon-archaeology/

 

Dario! Dr. Michael Coe explains how there's absolutely no evidence for Book of Mormon history in the Americas. There's no evident all, Dario! When I grew up we Mormons believed all people who didn't have white skin were cursed either in heaven with black skin, or on earth with some shade of brown skin. That's still Mormon doctrine even though it's not discussed anymore.

 

Boy we're susceptible to spamming lately.

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Boy we're susceptible to spamming lately.

I have allready reported it again. I hope Nemesis will do something about it. I just wanna be able to post here without these constant bullie's around me. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Dario_M

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Truth Teller said:

Dario_M, you have made a terrible mistake. The Mormon church is a cult. 

If you're saying, well, I feel the Holy Ghost inside me and I know the Lord has spoken to me, you need to fight that feeling and understand that anyone who joins a new religion feels that way, it's not just people who join the Mormon church that feel the "spirit." The Jehovah Witness feel the same feeling, Scientologist feel the same feeling, the same spirit. Churches such as the Mormons and Jehovah Witness surch for people who feel like they need comfort in their life, maybe a friend or friends, then they love bomb you for a while until you're fully indoctrinated into the religion and you're at a point in your life that you feel as if you can't leave the church. You're scared to leave because you know you'll go to HELL if you leave and dishonor your baptismal covenant. It's all by design Dario_M. The Jehovah Witness manipulate their new members in the exact same way. 

So, after reading this, you're thinking to yourself, but everyone I've met is so nice, what you're saying can't be true! Well, of course they're nice! Nice people are everywhere. 

Dario_M! I was molested at the age of 12 inside my church by a priesthood leader. I never told anyone for over 39 years. During my journey out of Mormonism I spent over $2000 in books trying to understand Mormonism an why I felt like I was doomed and going to live eternity in HELL because of what I was indoctrinated with while growing up in the Mormon Church. I'm telling you, study the church! Study the Jehovah Witness, the seventh day Adventist church, study Scientology, and you'll see just how similar mormonism is to the other churches I listed. They all preach the end of the world and they all promise that their teachings will get you to the highest heaven. 

Dario, now many members of this board are going to private message you to tell you that I don't know what I'm talking about and they're going to say I'm a mean antimormon. Don't listen to them! 

 

 

Welcome, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm not active in the church, going through faith crises since the early 2000's but Mormonism is in my blood and I can't cross over or leave yet. I believe abuses happen in all organizations, not just the three you mention. I think you should just let it go. There's so much in this world that isn't all truth, but it's someone's true north, or someone't truth. I know the church's warts, but again, organizations all have them. I do understand that the church shouldn't say it's the only true church, I think the days are coming or already here where it won't mention it as they did before. The church is changing for the better, and if it's helping then I say let it be. I hope we get to where the child is the most important in the church, and protect them with every fiber in our beings. The church should never protect the abuser. Even if they think that person needs a chance to repent. I know this thread will get locked because of the side tracked conversation and I probably am putting the nail in the coffin. Hope you stick around, and you'll see some fine people on here, unlike a lot of members in the wards these people on here know all the nitty gritty and hopefully will change the church from the inside to do better. Take care!