On Representation of the 3 Witnesses in the Media

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Regarding the visions of others outside the church, I was impressed by the BYU TV special from November, 2015, on Joan of Arc.  It has been 7 years since I've watched this (so I can't cite any details), but I remember liking the way the Latter-day Saint views are portrayed in the documentary.   For those who haven't seen it, it is worth watching the whole thing.  

A Youtube trailer is shown below, but the full documentary can be found at the BYU TV site here:   https://www.byutv.org/joan-of-arc

 

Read up on Our Lady of Fatima and/ or Lourdes.

I don't know how ANYBODY could fake all that evidence.

Our eyes are closed to the fact that God loves ALL his children, it's such a shame.

Padre Pio and the stigmata in general?

Our explanations of these phenomena make the statements of anti-mormons look like child's play, if we address them at all.

"It's all Satanic, of course" is the usual answer

This is just one reason to forget the words of "witnesses" and go by testimony. 

It's all hearsay in my opinion; put no one down, and go by the spirit!

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

He doesn't believe in the resurrection because he doesn't believe physical laws can be violated.

Even if he is right, he destroys the future of physics by implying that "all the laws of physics have been discovered "!

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Regarding the visions of others outside the church, I was impressed by the BYU TV special from November, 2015, on Joan of Arc.  It has been 7 years since I've watched this (so I can't cite any details), but I remember liking the way the Latter-day Saint views are portrayed in the documentary.   For those who haven't seen it, it is worth watching the whole thing.  

A Youtube trailer is shown below, but the full documentary can be found at the BYU TV site here:   https://www.byutv.org/joan-of-arc

 

Hey man, that ain't no French accent, that there is a FAKE !

 

[Hamilton Porter]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Read up on Our Lady of Fatima and/ or Lourdes.

I don't know how ANYBODY could fake all that evidence.

Our eyes are closed to the fact that God loves ALL his children, it's such a shame.

Padre Pio and the stigmata in general?

Our explanations of these phenomena make the statements of anti-mormons look like child's play, if we address them at all.

"It's all Satanic, of course" is the usual answer

This is just one reason to forget the words of "witnesses" and go by testimony. 

It's all hearsay in my opinion; put no one down, and go by the spirit!

Have you seen Saints discredit the spiritual experiences of other faiths?

I just looked at Fatima. Absolutely intriguing. Comparable to Brigham speaking on Joseph's voice.

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Have you seen Saints discredit the spiritual experiences of other faiths?

I just looked at Fatima. Absolutely intriguing. Comparable to Brigham speaking on Joseph's voice.

I have seen that explanation here before 

[Hamilton Porter]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You meant Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon together (Section 76).  And you are right, there are many accounts of visions and angels where there are multiple witnesses that can be added to the list (i.e. Oliver Cowdery and the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood, the Kirtland Temple dedication).

Didn't a lot of early Saints see visions of angels and Jesus? There were also massive healings and prophesying.

I remember BH Roberts saw an angel and ignored him.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Hey man, that ain't no French accent, that there is a FAKE !

 

Oui, oui, ils n'obtiennent jamais ce droit. 

But remember, that's a 15th century French accent.  *

* Edit:  Actually, it's a 15th century French accent of a person speaking 15th century English

Edited May 4, 2023 by InCognitus

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You meant Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon together (Section 76).  And you are right, there are many accounts of visions and angels where there are multiple witnesses that can be added to the list (i.e. Oliver Cowdery and the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood, the Kirtland Temple dedication).

Oh dang.  Yes, I meant Sydney.  Stupid brain fart.

[smac97]

15 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I have not seen any full account of the plates witnesses by anyone lampooning the faith or even trying to fairly give an account of the church. They could be fair about everything else.

1. Musical: Didn't mention the witnesses at all. Said Joseph claimed to keep the plates to himself.

2. Religion graphs YouTube series: Says witnesses all early founders of Mormonism. Said nothing about the witnesses affirming their testimonies even after leaving the faith.

3. There was another YouTube series that claimed that leaving the faith was implicit renegment. Also didn't mention the witnesses affirming their testimonies.

4. I could mention what Mike Winger (an evangelical Christian said), but it's not worth it.

Only JK Rowling on Twitter was somewhat fair, citing there's a debate over whether it was a mystical experience or actual.

Ann Taeves at UT Austin was intellectually honest to admit they were plates, although not ancient. She says JS consecrated them through a sacrament.

The witnesses are clearly something they had to dance around.

Back in 2021 I started this thread: Graphic Novel re: Joseph Smith

I noted this:

Quote

"Nobody must ever see what I have locked in this chest under any circumstances or they will be destroyed!"

Hmm.  There were witnesses to the plates, but here the novel seems to suggest "nobody" ever saw the plates "under any circumstances."  Another:

The omission of the Witnesses from naturalistic/alternative narratives about the origins of the Book of Mormon is . . . interesting.

Consider these remarks by Daniel Peterson:

Quote

Daniel C. Peterson said:

A knowledgeable academic friend who does not believe in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon once asked me, since it seems that the plates were not actually necessary to the translation process and were sometimes not even present in the room, what purpose they served. I responded that I did not know, exactly, except for one thing: They are an indigestible lump in the throats of people like him who contend that there were no Nephites but that Joseph Smith was nonetheless an inspired prophet. If the plates really existed, somebody made them. And if no Nephites existed to make them, then either Joseph Smith, or God, or somebody else seems to have been engaged in simple fraud. The testimony of the witnesses exists, I think, to force a dichotomous choice: true or false? 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Hamilton Porter]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Joseph was a practiced con artist (obviously in my opinion)

The people who know Joseph Smith best (Richard Bushman, Don Bradley) are convinced he's sincere.

[Hamilton Porter]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Read up on Our Lady of Fatima and/ or Lourdes.

You're in Portugal. You should visit Fatima and tell us about it. Take some pics @Dario_M

Edited May 4, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Nemesis]

13 hours ago, Henry said:

Oh no!!! An American pretending to be someone he's not reported me to the moderators, what shall I do! You might have just about everyone here fooled, but you can't fool me. 

You have no proof.  Fortunately his traffic has been rather consistent.  If you have some type of information that I do t have feel free to send it.  But keep it off the public forums. 

[Pyreaux]

On 5/4/2023 at 12:31 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

I have not seen any full account of the plates witnesses by anyone lampooning the faith or even trying to fairly give an account of the church. They could be fair about everything else.

1. Musical: Didn't mention the witnesses at all. Said Joseph claimed to keep the plates to himself.

2. Religion graphs YouTube series: Says witnesses all early founders of Mormonism. Said nothing about the witnesses affirming their testimonies even after leaving the faith.

3. There was another YouTube series that claimed that leaving the faith was implicit renegment. Also didn't mention the witnesses affirming their testimonies.

4. I could mention what Mike Winger (an evangelical Christian said), but it's not worth it.

Only JK Rowling on Twitter was somewhat fair, citing there's a debate over whether it was a mystical experience or actual.

Ann Taeves at UT Austin was intellectually honest to admit they were plates, although not ancient. She says JS consecrated them through a sacrament.

The witnesses are clearly something they had to dance around.

... And South Park also neglects to say anyone else saw the plates. It seems the world likes neglecting to mention many peoples saw the plates.

Almost every anti-Mormon (whose not an ex-member or read any serious literature) that I recall keep saying to me Joseph didn't let anyone see the plates, but he did. Eight saw and hefted the plates. Three others both saw the plates, touched them and saw the angel Moroni himself, all at the same time. If Joseph is a conman, it just seems very difficult to make 11 people see, feel and pick up a non-existent object. It's just as outlandish that Joseph was a master of mass hypnotism than just admitting the golden plates existed and they saw them. Those witnesses of the golden plates and angel, at one point or another, left the church, all but David Whitmer returned. They were among the most respected men of their community, they were skeptics, and even when they had no love for Joseph, no love for the church, not one ever retracted their testimony of seeing the plates, the angel, and that Joseph really translated them, no matter how much they might have hated Joseph, even David Whitmer on his deathbed affirmed that as a fact.

There were technically 25 witnesses of the plates' physical existence, including Emma Smith. There are other evidences they physically existed. The enemies who often robbed the Smith home seemed to believe Smith had them. The existence of the Anthon Transcript suggests there were plates. The custom-made box and lock that was made to contain it was real. It's weird to need a locked box for a non-existent thing, it'd be easier and cheaper just to tell people the non-existent item was hidden somewhere safe. 

On 5/4/2023 at 6:53 AM, Dario_M said:

Really great topic.

It's funny because a few months ago i asked this question in my church. I literaly asked: "hey churchmembers where are the golden plates right now on this verry moment?" And nobody of them really had an answer on my question. So i tryed it again (because i'm always really curious you know) and i asked: "are the Golden plates now somewhere in a museum or so?" And after that question one of the guys in my ward said to me that the golden plates went to heaven after Joseph Smith had read them all. The golden plates just lifted up to the heavens. 🤔

Well.. i may be a Mormon now, baptized received the holy ghost and received the Aaronic Priesthood. But you would never hear me say that those plates have really do exist for real. Or that those plates have lifted up to the heavens. I would never claim that as the real and only TRUTH. Because i just don't know. I wasn't there on that moment.

And where are those plates right now? If they really did exist they still should be somewhere right? 

So i just don't know or the Golden plates really existed or not. Maybe they did (and still do) exist (somewhere). Maybe not. I simply just don't know what i need to think about that. 

The angel took the plates into heaven. Why? I'd say for safe keeping, because they are due to return so the sealed portion can be translated. Others might also say it had to be taken away because these are matters of faith, the gospel ideally should be unproven, for the sake of free agency. We can't look at the Ark of the Covenant nor the Holy Grail to confirm the Bible because it supposed to be a matter of faith.

Know this, there are no holy books that I'm aware of that weren't originally based on books that were not merely earth bound, the Torah, New Testament, and the Quran we are told are just the dictates of the words of God that still exists today in heavenly books that are not on earth (Exodus 31:18; Ezekiel 2:9; Revelations 5:1; 1 Enoch 81; Jubilees 32:21; Prayer of Joseph B; 3 Enoch 41; Quran 96:1-5).

So, these issues that trouble these non-believers' minds, who suggest that saying the plates were taken into heaven is too convenient to be true and evidence they didn't exist, instead aligns with God's mode of operations for all truly holy books, so is also evidence to me that we chose wisely...

Edited May 5, 2023 by Pyreaux

[InCognitus]

16 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Really great topic.

It's funny because a few months ago i asked this question in my church. I literaly asked: "hey churchmembers where are the golden plates right now on this verry moment?" And nobody of them really had an answer on my question. So i tryed it again (because i'm always really curious you know) and i asked: "are the Golden plates now somewhere in a museum or so?" And after that question one of the guys in my ward said to me that the golden plates went to heaven after Joseph Smith had read them all. The golden plates just lifted up to the heavens. 🤔

Well.. i may be a Mormon now, baptized received the holy ghost and received the Aaronic Priesthood. But you would never hear me say that those plates have really do exist for real. Or that those plates have lifted up to the heavens. I would never claim that as the real and only TRUTH. Because i just don't know. I wasn't there on that moment.

And where are those plates right now? If they really did exist they still should be somewhere right? 

So i just don't know or the Golden plates really existed or not. Maybe they did (and still do) exist (somewhere). Maybe not. I simply just don't know what i need to think about that. 

A lot of people have responded to your question, but I didn't see where anyone has given Joseph Smith's answer to your question about where the plates are now and the reason why they were given back to the heavenly messenger (I may have missed it).  This is found in the Pearl of Great Price - Joseph Smith History 1:59-60:

Quote

         59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.
         60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible. But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.   (Joseph Smith—History 1:59–60)

Joseph makes it clear that it was the plan from day one that the plates would be delivered back into the hand of the messenger when the translation was completed, and he explains the reason that they needed to be returned:  People were out to get them.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

all at the same time

Almost at the same time…

[Hamilton Porter]

10 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Given the contrasting views of Mormons here, I am not so sure actually meeting a Mormon would be a guarantee of an accurate understanding of Mormonism.

Mornonisms 

[Hamilton Porter]

Again, I'm in awe the incentive structure was there for Bart Ehrman to give an accurate representation.

[Hamilton Porter]

3 hours ago, Nemesis said:

You have no proof.  Fortunately his traffic has been rather consistent.

It's also consistent with someone in Portugal time.

[Hamilton Porter]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Joseph makes it clear that it was the plan from day one that the plates would be delivered back into the hand of the messenger when the translation was completed, and he explains the reason that they needed to be returned:  People were out to get them.

Jsh wasn't written until 1838 though.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Oui, oui, ils n'obtiennent jamais ce droit. 

But remember, that's a 15th century French accent.  *

* Edit:  Actually, it's a 15th century French accent of a person speaking 15th century English

Oh yeah, I remember now. It's changed a lot since I was a kid! 😜

[Hamilton Porter]

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Jsh wasn't written until 1838 though.

Yes, but he was recounting the events from the time when he first received the plates.  

[Dario_M]

23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I guarantee you that if plates of the Book of Mormon were revealed to the world, and put on display in many nations, very few would join the church as a consequence. They would simply be dismissed as an elaborate hoax. And the majority of those few who would join the church after seeing the plates would soon abandon the church due to lack of faith. You haven’t thought this out.

I think it would make them even more  believe. And uhm...may i ask you what you mean with: "You haven't thought this out." ?? 

[Dario_M]

20 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

You're in Portugal. You should visit Fatima and tell us about it. Take some pics @Dario_M

Yes that would be an amazing idea. ! For some day. Thank you for that idea dear Hamilton Porter. 

Fatima is a little far north though. And it's not a big city. More a village. With poor public transportation i guess. And i don't have a car. 

Can you guys not ask me to make foto's from places close to where i live. In Miratejo! There are so manny beautiful places near Miratejo. Especially in the direction of the west. And yes i wanna make photo's because i just can tast it that you guys really wanna know for sure that i'm really living in Portugal.  But i really do guys. Please give it a break.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Can you guys not ask me to make foto's from places close to where i live. In Miratejo! There are so manny beautiful places near Miratejo. Especially in the direction of the west.

I would love to see photos from where you and others live.  We should start a thread in Social for this purpose.  That would be fun.