Teachings of Joseph Smith on the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Gifts of the Spirit

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

You started this thread by referencing me and the teachings of Joseph Smith.

So why, then, are you declining my request for you to share teachings of Joseph Smith that are only his opinion?

 

I declined your request because this wasn't the topic of the thread and didn't know of an answer off the top of my head.  I would have to go research this and get back to you. And you are just as capable of researching this as I am. And which teachings of his were only his opinion and not doctrinal is really a matter of opinion. I believe that pretty much everything he taught is doctrine. So if you have a teaching of his that you think was only his opinion and would like to discuss it, feel free to share it. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

I think that the problem is that you are 1) asserting that your fundamentalist views are in fact mainstream within the LDS Church, that 2) in a similar fashion you are trying to label those with a difference of opinion as progressives (using the term derogatorily), and 3) you repeated refusal to engage in dialogue which would put you in the position of having to recognize the limitations of your claims. Inciting conflict? Only perhaps in the disdain that you seem to be oozing towards those who disagree with you.

This is a complete mischaracterization.

1) No, I haven't made any such assertion. 

2) No, I did not use the term "progressive" in a derogatory way. 

3) I almost always reply to every comment that is made towards me, so this couldn't be further from the truth. 

I also have no disdain for people who disagree with me, but I will admit that I don't particularly appreciate the disdain and derision with which I am frequently met with here. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

8 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Okay Grug, provide some specific examples, preferably recent examples, of what the LDS church and its membership have done that evidence that it is in sole possession of gifts of the Spirit, and, therefore, Christ’s only church. 
 

 

I could provide many examples from early church history, but recent examples would be more difficult to produce. I believe that the general church membership today does not generally seek after the Gifts of the Spirit and that the membership is generally too caught up in the vain things of this world to manifest these gifts at a level that is clearly visibly distinguishable from the rest of Christianity today. There are members who possess these gifts, but they generally keep them to themselves and don't share them openly. 

But my opinion on this is really irrelevant. I believe that the teachings of Joseph Smith, the scriptures, and the church are clear on this issue. 

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

This is a complete mischaracterization.

1) No, I haven't made any such assertion. 

2) No, I did not use the term "progressive" in a derogatory way. 

3) I almost always reply to every comment that is made towards me, so this couldn't be further from the truth. 

I also have no disdain for people who disagree with me, but I will admit that I don't particularly appreciate the disdain and derision with which I am frequently met with here. 

You’ll get no more feedback from me.  All that free feedback gone to waste, what a terrific shame 😂- carry on. 

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I’m talking about baptism by immersion and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost by proper priesthood authority as restored to earth from the heavens by angels to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. 

What is the point of all this if it isn’t actually necessary?

Yes, but you lump a lot of stuff under the 'gift of the Holy Ghost' umbrella that many don't agree belong there, such as all gifts of the spirit.  In large part, the amount of pushback you are getting is because your interpretation of JS's beliefs brushes with really really broad strokes.  

All of what you said above can still be (and is) necessary and important without gifts of the spirit needing to be under the umbrella, for example.  A protestant from India can have access to the gift of charity or wisdom and that doesn't impact at all the necessity of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by one holding proper authority.

Quote

And yet this is the very thing Joseph Smith taught and is also contained in our modern Gospel Principles manual and I’m sure on many other occasions and church publications. 

Where did JS teach that one had to be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before they could have faith, or hope, or charity?  

Quote

There’s a big difference in an exception to bring about a restoration after an apostasy, which is doctrinal (see Alma baptizing in the waters of Mormon for example), and what you are suggesting, which is that people can receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost without baptism and the laying on of hands while the authority to perform these ordinances is available. 

Two things:

1) Alma is a great example of another exception to our doctrine.  It shows a precedent that exceptions exist and supports my point.

2) What I am suggesting is not a big difference than the previous two exceptions.  It is actually very similar because it shows that exceptions can exist when there is a need.  Acts implies that the gentiles were given the gift of the Holy Ghost before baptism because the Jews were struggling to accept that they had as much of a right to the gospel of Christ and its saving ordinances as they did.   

The end justified the means.  We see the same thing in the examples of baptism that we have been speaking of.

Quote

It doesn’t make sense (to me anyway) that these gentiles in Acts 10 would have legitimately received the gift of the Holy Ghost at the time of their conversion prior to baptism and the laying on of hands, while everyone else merely received a witness of the Holy Ghost at the time of their conversion and then received the Gift of the Holy Ghost following baptism and the laying on of hands. The Lord’s house is house of order not confusion. As Joseph Smith stated, we believe in the Gift of the Holy Ghost rationally. 

I agree with JS (and you) about rationality and God's house being a house of order, but I think it can be a mistake to take that too far.  To believe in something rationally means to believe it in by logical means, using reason.  I already provided you with a quote by one prophet who used logical means to come to the conclusion that God would never allow mankind to reach the moon.  His rationale on that belief was reasonable and logical.  But it was also wrong.

We can never forget that God's ways are not our ways.  We are not always going to be able to make sense of everything that He does or to understand it.  If we worship a God who never does anything we disagree with or don't understand then that means we are worshipping a God who is exactly like us. 

And that's a huge red flag.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I could provide many examples from early church history, but recent examples would be more difficult to produce. I believe that the general church membership today does not generally seek after the Gifts of the Spirit and that the membership is generally too caught up in the vain things of this world to manifest these gifts at a level that is clearly visibly distinguishable from the rest of Christianity today. There are members who possess these gifts, but they generally keep them to themselves and don't share them openly. 

But my opinion on this is really irrelevant. I believe that the teachings of Joseph Smith, the scriptures, and the church are clear on this issue. 

What kind of God would only want 0.2 percent of His children to have the special gift of Holy Ghost? 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

According to google these faiths all get the gift of the Holy Ghost. When we act as if we're the only ones, that is so cultish. 

 

 

Contents

• 1 Roman Catholicism.
• 2 Eastern Orthodoxy.
• 3 Protestantism. 3.1 Methodism. 3.2 Pentecostalism.
• 4 Restoration Movement and Churches of Christ.
• 5 Non-Trinitarian views. 5.1 Unitarian and Arian. 5.2 Binitarianism. 5.3 Modalist groups. 5.4 Latter Day Saints. 5.5 Other groups.

 

 

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I declined your request because this wasn't the topic of the thread and didn't know of an answer off the top of my head.  I would have to go research this and get back to you. And you are just as capable of researching this as I am. And which teachings of his were only his opinion and not doctrinal is really a matter of opinion. I believe that pretty much everything he taught is doctrine. So if you have a teaching of his that you think was only his opinion and would like to discuss it, feel free to share it. 

Yeah but she is Catolic you know. She is not going to do that for sure. 🎭

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

According to google these faiths all get the gift of the Holy Ghost. When we act as if we're the only ones, that is so cultish. 

 

 

Contents

• 1 Roman Catholicism.
• 2 Eastern Orthodoxy.
• 3 Protestantism. 3.1 Methodism. 3.2 Pentecostalism.
• 4 Restoration Movement and Churches of Christ.
• 5 Non-Trinitarian views. 5.1 Unitarian and Arian. 5.2 Binitarianism. 5.3 Modalist groups. 5.4 Latter Day Saints. 5.5 Other groups.

 

 

Yeah you find that cultish?

Interesting to see all those church directions. It's prity obviously that it all started with the Catolics. And our church comes way more later in time. That's why i don't understand why some later day saints think that our church is the only real church (like Neanderthal aahum!). And all the other churches are just not real. Or don't have any relevants.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[mfbukowski]

We really need to have Bishops doing convert interviews and not missionaries.

I have seen it again and again

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I just know that Joseph Smith plainly taught that there is a difference and that the Gifts of the Spirit are obtained and can only be enjoyed by receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. I believe that it's only rational that if the Gift of the Holy Ghost is only received by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek priesthood holder (which is still the official position of the church today) that there must be something tangible that is received when one received the Gift of the Holy Ghost that cannot be received in any other way. There must also be some visible sign of the true and living church upon the earth. Multiple apostles have stated that at least one such sign is the Gifts of the Spirit.

There are both in-born gifts, which everyone has one, though they ideally need the influence of the Holy Ghost to use it properly, while access to new spiritual gifts you were not born with can be obtained when the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given.

“Every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.” (D&C 46:11–12), "All these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will." (Moroni 10:17)

Manifestations of the Holy Ghost are given to all to lead earnest seekers. These are preparatory gifts. What we term spiritual gifts come next.  Spiritual gifts come to those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Yet as the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, the gifts of the Spirit “are obtained through that medium” [the Holy Ghost] and “cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost. … The world in general can know nothing about them.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Light of Christ (John 8:12; 3 Ne. 15:9): The Holy Ghost is a person, it's being is finite, but its presence and power that emanates to fill the immensity of space and enlightens every man, woman, and child. "The same light that quickeneth your understandings; which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—the light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things" (D&C 88:11-13). But it is different from the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but it is a function of the Holy Ghost, it manifests itself in different ways and degrees. Parley P. Pratt, it is this "by which we reason, discern, judge, compare, comprehend, and remember the subjects within our reach." It is revealed as instinct in animals, reason in man, and vision in the prophets". We should seek more of this light, which for the faithful grows "brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (D&C 50:24). The gift of the Holy Ghost is a, "a greater and higher Endowment of the same Spirit which enlightens every man that comes into the world" (C. W. Penrose, JD 23:350)

The gift of the Holy Ghost: is the right or privilege of receiving spiritual gifts, and direction from the Holy Ghost. This gift is conferred upon members of the Church by the laying on of hands following baptism (TPJS, p. 199). President Joseph F. Smith taught that the gift of the Holy Ghost confers upon worthy and desirous members "the right to receive…the power and light of truth of the Holy Ghost, although [they] may often be left to [their] own spirit and judgment" (GD, pp. 60-61).

The gift of the Holy Ghost is understood to be the key to "all" of the "spiritual gifts" found in the Church, including the gifts of prophecy and revelation, of healing, of speaking in tongues, and of the translation and interpretation of tongues. While these gifts of the spirit normally are manifested only among those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost and those who qualify by their needs and their worthiness for such divine assistance. At least from time to time

Once formally bestowed upon an individual, this gift can and should be continuous during a lifetime. The Holy Ghost can be a "constant companion" to strengthen them and help them choose the right (D&C 121:46). The gift alone does not insure inspiration, it is conditional upon the humility, faith, and worthiness of the individual who has had the gift bestowed on him or her.

False gifts

Scripturally, gifts of the Spirit are among the signs that "follow them that believe" (Mark 16:17). Eager to receive such promised gifts but lacking in understanding, some of the early converts to the Church (1831-32) became caught up in "spiritual" excesses that were common to revivalist campground meetings, with which they were familiar. In early days in Kirtland, Ohio, the Prophet Joseph Smith observed, "many false spirits were introduced…many ridiculous things were entered into…[that would] cause the Spirit of God to be withdrawn" (TPJS, pp. 213-14). In congregations around Kirtland, Parley P. Pratt specifically noted "disgusting" spiritual operations, "unseemly gestures," people falling "into ecstasies, and…drawn into contortions…fits" (Pratt, p. 61). Joseph Smith condemned such practices as unnatural and without useful purpose, since they communicated no intelligence (TPJS, pp. 204, 214). Thus dissociating the Church from the spiritual extravagances of frontier Christianity, the authorities moved swiftly against such erroneous practices, reclaiming those members whom they could and excommunicating those who persisted in their error.

Joseph Smith cautioned about "the common error of considering all supernatural manifestations to be of God," warning that evil spirits as well as heavenly ones can, for example, speak in tongues and interpret them; and that in their deception they may even give recognition to the Savior and his authorized servants (TPJS, pp. 206-13, 229; also Luke 4:33-35; Acts 16:16-18).

...Its so late... I'm just tinkering away on this... Sleeptime...

Edited March 3, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Dario_M]

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We really need to have Bishops doing convert interviews and not missionaries.

I have seen it again and again

Yeah but those bishops need to be able to speak the English language to begin with. 🎭 Otherwise a interview is quite hard to do for some people. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[Benjamin McGuire]

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

This is a complete mischaracterization.

It's not.

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

1) No, I haven't made any such assertion. 

You did. It wasn't direct. But it was definitely there.

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

2) No, I did not use the term "progressive" in a derogatory way. 

You did.

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

3) I almost always reply to every comment that is made towards me, so this couldn't be further from the truth. 

And this isn't true.

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I also have no disdain for people who disagree with me, but I will admit that I don't particularly appreciate the disdain and derision with which I am frequently met with here. 

My experience is that in a place like this, you generally get back what you dish out.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

25 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

This is a complete mischaracterization.

It's not.

Yes, it definitely is. Every single one of your charges against me is false. 

1) CFR where I have asserted that my "fundamentalist" views are mainstream within the LDS Church. 

2) CFR where I have referred to any individuals on this forum as progressive derogatorily. 

3) CFR that I don't reply to nearly every question or comment directed at me and refuse to engage in discussion. 

4) CFR that I first treated people on this board with disdain and not the other way around. 

For each of these I would like clear and explicit proof, not your perception of what you think I mean or am doing. 

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What kind of God would only want 0.2 percent of His children to have the special gift of Holy Ghost?

God doesn't "only want 0.2 percent of His children to have the special gift of Holy Ghost." He is willing to bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost on any of his children who meet the requirements for it. 

But as Jesus said, "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way... and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14)

[Dario_M]

The members of other churches....those people also count as children of God i find. I mean.. it would be prity arrogant if we as church of latter day saints claim that only WE are the real church the real way. and count as his real childeren. And that the other church directions doesn't count at all. 

Even people who don't go to a church at all could have been prity good people through their lives. And what about those people? They will end up in the Telestial Kingdom?? I don't buy that. And those nonsens about baptizing those people anyway after they have died because otherwise they are doomed, sound also as nonsens to my ears. I just don't buy that sorry. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, but you lump a lot of stuff under the 'gift of the Holy Ghost' umbrella that many don't agree belong there, such as all gifts of the spirit.

People are free to disagree, but I'm just going off of what Joseph Smith said. And I believe that what Joseph Smith said is logical, rational, and consistent with the scriptures.

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Where did JS teach that one had to be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before they could have faith, or hope, or charity?

I'm not aware of any instance where Joseph Smith said this. And I'm not claiming this either. I have repeatedly said that I believe that individuals can obviously have these things to varying degrees without first being baptized and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. But there must be something that is obtained when one receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands that one cannot receive in any other way. Otherwise this would not be necessary and there would have been no need for God to send angels to restore this authority to earth. There must also be some signs that distinguish the true and living church of God from those that aren't, and prophets and apostles have consistently taught that the gifts of the Spirit is one of these signs. 

I would really like you to answer the question about what the purpose of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is if the Gift of the Holy Ghost, with all of it's blessings, can be obtained without this ordinance. Or alternatively please explain what it is that you believe is given when one receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands that can be received in no other way.

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Acts implies that the gentiles were given the gift of the Holy Ghost before baptism because the Jews were struggling to accept that they had as much of a right to the gospel of Christ and its saving ordinances as they did.

Maybe. Or it's a translation error and the gentiles were simply full of the Holy Ghost at the time of their conversion, which was a sign to the Jews that they were truly converted and ready for baptism, and then they received the actual gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Had they not been baptized and had hands laid on them, then they Holy Ghost, which had come upon them and convinced them of the truth, would have left them. 

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

I already provided you with a quote by one prophet who used logical means to come to the conclusion that God would never allow mankind to reach the moon.

With all due respect, there's a big difference between JFS stating his opinion that mankind would never reach the moon and then admitting his error and Joseph Smith the rational teachings of Joseph Smith on the gift of the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the Spirit. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

There are both in-born gifts, which everyone has one, though they ideally need the influence of the Holy Ghost to use it properly, while access to new spiritual gifts you were not born with can be obtained when the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given.

“Every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.” (D&C 46:11–12), "All these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will." (Moroni 10:17)

Manifestations of the Holy Ghost are given to all to lead earnest seekers. These are preparatory gifts. What we term spiritual gifts come next.  Spiritual gifts come to those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Yet as the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, the gifts of the Spirit “are obtained through that medium” [the Holy Ghost] and “cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost. … The world in general can know nothing about them.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Light of Christ (John 8:12; 3 Ne. 15:9): The Holy Ghost is a person, it's being is finite, but its presence and power that emanates to fill the immensity of space and enlightens every man, woman, and child. "The same light that quickeneth your understandings; which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—the light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things" (D&C 88:11-13). But it is different from the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but it is a function of the Holy Ghost, it manifests itself in different ways and degrees. Parley P. Pratt, it is this "by which we reason, discern, judge, compare, comprehend, and remember the subjects within our reach." It is revealed as instinct in animals, reason in man, and vision in the prophets". We should seek more of this light, which for the faithful grows "brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (D&C 50:24). The gift of the Holy Ghost is a, "a greater and higher Endowment of the same Spirit which enlightens every man that comes into the world" (C. W. Penrose, JD 23:350)

The gift of the Holy Ghost: is the right or privilege of receiving spiritual gifts, and direction from the Holy Ghost. This gift is conferred upon members of the Church by the laying on of hands following baptism (TPJS, p. 199). President Joseph F. Smith taught that the gift of the Holy Ghost confers upon worthy and desirous members "the right to receive…the power and light of truth of the Holy Ghost, although [they] may often be left to [their] own spirit and judgment" (GD, pp. 60-61).

The gift of the Holy Ghost is understood to be the key to "all" of the "spiritual gifts" found in the Church, including the gifts of prophecy and revelation, of healing, of speaking in tongues, and of the translation and interpretation of tongues. While these gifts of the spirit normally are manifested only among those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost and those who qualify by their needs and their worthiness for such divine assistance. At least from time to time

Once formally bestowed upon an individual, this gift can and should be continuous during a lifetime. The Holy Ghost can be a "constant companion" to strengthen them and help them choose the right (D&C 121:46). The gift alone does not insure inspiration, it is conditional upon the humility, faith, and worthiness of the individual who has had the gift bestowed on him or her.

False gifts

Scripturally, gifts of the Spirit are among the signs that "follow them that believe" (Mark 16:17). Eager to receive such promised gifts but lacking in understanding, some of the early converts to the Church (1831-32) became caught up in "spiritual" excesses that were common to revivalist campground meetings, with which they were familiar. In early days in Kirtland, Ohio, the Prophet Joseph Smith observed, "many false spirits were introduced…many ridiculous things were entered into…[that would] cause the Spirit of God to be withdrawn" (TPJS, pp. 213-14). In congregations around Kirtland, Parley P. Pratt specifically noted "disgusting" spiritual operations, "unseemly gestures," people falling "into ecstasies, and…drawn into contortions…fits" (Pratt, p. 61). Joseph Smith condemned such practices as unnatural and without useful purpose, since they communicated no intelligence (TPJS, pp. 204, 214). Thus dissociating the Church from the spiritual extravagances of frontier Christianity, the authorities moved swiftly against such erroneous practices, reclaiming those members whom they could and excommunicating those who persisted in their error.

Joseph Smith cautioned about "the common error of considering all supernatural manifestations to be of God," warning that evil spirits as well as heavenly ones can, for example, speak in tongues and interpret them; and that in their deception they may even give recognition to the Savior and his authorized servants (TPJS, pp. 206-13, 229; also Luke 4:33-35; Acts 16:16-18).

...Its so late... I'm just tinkering away on this... Sleeptime...

Excellent thoughts and quotes. Thanks for sharing!

[Grug the Neanderthal]

18 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

The members of other churches....those people also count as children of God i find.

Yes, of course. All of mankind are children of God. 

20 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Even people who don't go to a church at all could have been prity good people through their lives. And what about those people? They will end up in the Telestial Kingdom??

Ultimately, God is the judge. According to D&C 76, good and honorable people of the earth who don't meet the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom and be in the presence of Jesus Christ. 

If this clears up what I was saying, I would appreciate it if you removed the downvote where I quoted Jesus Christ about the straight and narrow way.

[Dario_M]

30 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Ultimately, God is the judge. According to D&C 76, good and honorable people of the earth who don't meet the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom and be in the presence of Jesus Christ. 

If this clears up what I was saying, I would appreciate it if you removed the downvote where I quoted Jesus Christ about the straight and narrow way.

Yeah the Terrestrail Kingdom, not Telestial kingdom my mistake.

But the TK is actually just the same place as earth. And on that place they need to learn more about the gospel to get into the Celestail Kingdom. At least that is what some Mormons happends to believe. Plus somebody needs to baptize these past people in the temple as well. That is required for these people to move on to the Celestail Kingdom. 

You know what Neanderthal, i don't buy this. I'm not that kind of Mormon. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[Benjamin McGuire]

44 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes, it definitely is. Every single one of your charges against me is false. 

They aren't false Grug. That you don't see it that way is largely irrelevant.

45 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

1) CFR where I have asserted that my "fundamentalist" views are mainstream within the LDS Church. 

Ok. Let's start here:

On 3/1/2023 at 1:50 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Just stating my observations. The kinds of beliefs that are frequently expressed on this board are not representative of the typical beliefs I hear expressed by most active members of the church, even in private conversations. 

I won't disagree with you on the fact that there are a lot of non-believers on this board. But, for active Mormons, most of those on this board are in fact reasonably typical. This is similar to the claims of a dichotomy between so-called internet Mormons and chapel Mormons (you don't hear it so much anymore) but this is because that distinction has been shrinking.

It may have something to do with where you live. I don't know. You haven't provided any personal information about yourself. But, my experience (for whatever personal anecdotal experience is worth) is very different from yours. This is often more relevant than people think because the vast majority of members of the Church are converts. And they certainly don't share the same perspective as someone raised in an ultra-conservative multi-generational Mormon context. I suppose that you might have been suggesting that most members hold a position different from your own - but I really didn't get that vibe from your comments.

Mormonism is a religion of ongoing revelation. Joseph Smith is only relevant when there hasn't been clarification or changes or corrections made to what he taught. This is part of the reason for the label of fundamentalism. But, my use of that label isn't meant in the sense of Mormon Fundamentalism (as a specific set of religious beliefs). I meant the term more generically. That is:

Quote

Fundamentalism is a tendency among certain groups and individuals that is characterized by the application of a strict literal interpretation to scriptures, dogmas, or ideologies, along with a strong belief in the importance of distinguishing one's ingroup and outgroup, which leads to an emphasis on some conception of "purity", and a desire to return to a previous ideal from which advocates believe members have strayed. The term is usually used in the context of religion to indicate an unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs (the "fundamentals").

Do I really need to point out the way that you tend to use what you believe are 'strict literal interpretations' of scriptures and ideologies? You certainly have a tendency to try to label those views you favor as orthodox and those you don't as mere opinion. So I think that the label applies here. More in just a moment.

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

3) CFR that I don't reply to nearly every question or comment directed at me and refuse to engage in discussion. 

How about this one:

On 3/1/2023 at 9:37 PM, MiserereNobis said:

What statements of his are given as his personal opinion?

This was referring to Joseph Smith. It was, I think, an important question. In part it was important because you seem to be giving anything said by Joseph Smith a weight which it shouldn't have (merely by its connection to Joseph Smith).

At the same time, every time a more recent prophet provided new revelation, it is given precedence in the LDS Church. This ties back to the idea of fundamentalism. If you have to go strictly to Joseph Smith instead of the current teachings, you are engaging in this fundamentalist mind-set. A discussion on Adam-God, for example, should start with Spencer W. Kimball (or more recent pronouncements on the topic like those from McConkie), rather than with Joseph Smith (or Brigham Young). But in any case, the question is of interest because it asks you were you draw the line in terms of understanding the doctrinal value of Joseph Smith's statements. Is everything in the TPJS supposed to be considered authoritative? Can something be authoritative and doctrinal and then stop being authoritative and doctrinal when we have new light and knowledge? You seem to be really cagey about placing any limits that would favor recent prophetic statements over past ones.

  

19 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think it's just a certain set of more progressive LDS or non-LDS individuals on this board who don't like my more traditional LDS views who give me push back and then get upset when remain firm in my views.

There are also a couple of times you have something to this effect back in a now close thread on historical hate speech by historical LDS leaders. It really has nothing to do with whether you keep your views. I don't think anyone here cares about that. Perhaps I am misreading you, but the issue is that you are asserting that your views are the "traditional LDS views" - and this statement isn't really accurate either. This is part of your suggestion that your views are more mainstream than they are. The correct way to describe much of your 'conservative' views are that they are historical views, not traditional. We all know that historically there have been lots of perspectives that are not embraced today and that are not appropriate today. That's what you get pushback on. That and the suggestion that you (and many of the LDS members that you speak to in private conversation) all believe these historical views.

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

4) CFR that I first treated people on this board with disdain and not the other way around. 

I'm not that interested in citing anything. What I will say is this - you have repeatedly, in the history that I took the time to look up, made the claim that everyone is misunderstanding you. That aren't saying at all what people are reading into your comments. And, of course, things like: "I get that my views "sound like" misogyny to you and others here who are biased and prejudiced against men who hold less progressive and more traditional views..." This is disdain. It isn't everyone else, it's you.

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

For each of these I would like clear and explicit proof, not your perception of what you think I mean or am doing. 

Really? You live in a bubble. If I come across as disdainful and snarky, it's because I intend it to be that way. And, while I think that most people would agree with me on my perceptions of you and what you are doing, it seems obvious from your history here that you will not recognize any of my points as having any validity. You will simply dismiss me as an irrelevant progressive who doesn't understand or accept the traditional Mormon faith.

If you are representative of that 'traditional Mormon faith,' I can live with that.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

36 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah the Terrestrail Kingdom, not Telestial kingdom my mistake.

But the TK is actually just the same place as earth. And on that place they need to learn more about the gospel to get into the Celestail Kingdom. At least that is what some Mormons happends to believe. Plus somebody needs to baptize these past people in the temple as well. That is required for these people to move on to the Celestail Kingdom. 

You know what Neanderthal, i don't buy this. I'm not that kind of Mormon. 

I suggest that you study this out some more.

[Dario_M]

50 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I suggest that you study this out some more.

Sunday i have an appointment with my missionaris. I will discuss this matter with him. But i really find that some things are not right. Neanderthal. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah but those bishops need to be able to speak the English language to begin with. 🎭 Otherwise a interview is quite hard to do for some people. 

Yes, clearly they need to speak the same language no matter who does it, missionaries or bishop.

We are a global church, English is not required, nor should it be.

I know about interviews too; they are just as scary for the person conducting them ! 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Dario_M]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, clearly they need to speak the same language no matter who does it, missionaries or bishop.

Missionaries always speak English. Most of them are from US. Plus they also speak the language of the country where they are going to with their mission. You know this perfectly well. 

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We are a global church, English is not required, nor should it be.

Yes it should. This church have started in AMERICA. US. And maybe you didn't know that yet but in AMERICA they speak English. 

Apart from this church being an English church is it also just so that English is a WORLD LANGUAGE so actually should everyone speak at least a little English. Anno 2023 one should think everyone would be able (or willing) to speak a little English. Unfortunatly time have stand still in all those years it seems like. 

 

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I know about interviews too; they are just as scary for the person conducting them ! 

 

The interview whas scary for me as well. But i whas lucky the guy whas extremaly nice and understanding. And spoke perfectly English because he whas from the US. That in combination with my charmes and a little of my lies. And i whas in. From that moment my latter day saint adventure whas really getting started. Few days later i got baptized.🥳

And i don't care what you think about that either. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dario_M