Teachings of Joseph Smith on the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Gifts of the Spirit

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I'm not poking the guy at all. Come on you guys. You see that wrong. I sinserely asked him or he couldn't take it anymore (read our posts) that is what i ment. 

Let's not judge me okay. I allready get enaugh of that. I'm really unhappy. 

I’m sorry you are unhappy. I think mfb is also wise to set limits for himself. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The Gifts of the Spirit that one has access to after receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is not the same thing as feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost. 

Charity is a gift of the spirit. Hope is a gift.  Faith is a gift.  Believing is a gift.  Wisdom is a gift. Knowledge is a gift. etc. etc. etc. Are you suggesting that non-members cannot have access to these gifts?

Edited March 1, 2023 by pogi

[Dario_M]

14 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sorry you are unhappy. I think mfb is also wise to set limits for himself. 

I really wasn't poking him. That's not in my nature.... cince i have received the holy ghost. Sometimes he needs a break from this website....that is what he says himself. 

Don't be sorry about me. It is just my problem. I pray for a change one day. That i will be free from all the pain i have on the moment. 

Buy okay ...that's offtopic, enaugh about that. Let's go ontopic. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dario_M

[Smiley McGee]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

A few questions:

Are you saying that outside of the LDS church there are no gifts of the spirit? So there were no gifts of the spirit from the time of the great apostasy until Joseph Smith?

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that have occurred outside of the LDS church?

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that occurred before the founding of the LDS church (let's say 400-1830)?

Does an editorial by Joseph Smith in a newspaper constitute an official doctrine?

The church echoes Joseph Smith's view in its book Gospel Principles:

Quote

Following baptism, each of us had hands laid on our heads to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we are faithful, we can have His influence continually with us. Through Him, each of us can be blessed with certain spiritual powers called gifts of the Spirit...to use our gifts wisely, we need to know what they are, how we can develop them, and how to recognize Satan’s imitations of them....these gifts have been given to members of the true Church whenever it has been on the earth...."

My experience is that LDSs believe non-LDSs can and do have spiritual experiences, including experiences that involve visions, dreams, etc, though I don't know that they believe that a non-member can have recurring access to these gifts, and develop them, without being baptized and confirmed by someone holding authority. These gifts are often cited as evidence for the truthfulness of the Church, so a non-member claiming to have similar access to these gifts would probably be met with skepticism.

 

 

[Smiley McGee]

14 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

We believe in it [this gift of the Holy Ghost] in all its fullness, and power, and greatness, and glory; but whilst we do this, we believe in it rationally...

Got a chuckle out of this part of the quote. What could this mean?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

43 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

The church echoes Joseph Smith's view in its book Gospel Principles:

My experience is that LDSs believe non-LDSs can and do have spiritual experiences, including experiences that involve visions, dreams, etc, though I don't know that they believe that a non-member can have recurring access to these gifts, and develop them, without being baptized and confirmed by someone holding authority. These gifts are often cited as evidence for the truthfulness of the Church, so a non-member claiming to have similar access to these gifts would probably be met with skepticism.

 

 

Exactly. What Joseph taught is the official doctrine of the church.

Which is the rational way of believing in the Gift of the Holy Ghost Joseph Smith was referring to.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

How did JS deal with the Day of Pentecost, where a group was given the gift of the Holy Ghost without first having been baptized?

A THEOPHANY before baptism?

Uh, I don't think the gift of the HG is a requirement.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

I'm not poking the guy at all. Come on you guys. You see that wrong. I sinserely asked him or he couldn't take it anymore (read our posts) that is what i ment. 

Let's not judge me okay. I allready get enaugh of that. I'm really unhappy. 

Again, don't let it get under your skin, or THEY control you.

Don't scratch mosquito bites.

Same thing.

 

[Dario_M]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Again, don't let it get under your skin, or THEY control you.

Don't scratch mosquito bites.

Same thing.

 

Good advice. 

So.😃 dear mfbukowski, and? Have you calm down a bit now?? You needed some time didn't you? Blow some steam off?? 😤

Take it easy my friend. Don't scratch wasp stings. Don't get the wasps under your skin (ouch😖) 

God bless. 

Okay ontopic now. Whas about Joseph Smith !

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dario_M

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Smiley McGee said:

The church echoes Joseph Smith's view in its book Gospel Principles:

My experience is that LDSs believe non-LDSs can and do have spiritual experiences, including experiences that involve visions, dreams, etc, though I don't know that they believe that a non-member can have recurring access to these gifts, and develop them, without being baptized and confirmed by someone holding authority. These gifts are often cited as evidence for the truthfulness of the Church, so a non-member claiming to have similar access to these gifts would probably be met with skepticism.

 

 

The Book of Mormon was published before Joseph was baptized 

Let's try again.

I am out, weakling that I am.

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I also felt the holy ghost from the moment i got baptized and those man where having their hands on me head. I have changed a lot from that moment. The biggest change that i have made is that i'm now way more sensitive for people that judge me. 🧐

This isn't judgment. I just know you are new and learning so I want to help. 

The Spirit doesn't really work that way.  The Spirit helps you become more like Christ - helps you to love others and think of them before yourself. So instead of worrying about their judgment of you the Spirit helps you to not worry so much about what they think, but the Spirits helps you to think more on how you can help and love others.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The Book of Mormon was published before Joseph was baptized 

No it wasn’t.

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were baptized while they were in the process of translating the Book of Mormon. 

[Dario_M]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

This isn't judgment. I just know you are new and learning so I want to help. 

Yeah you can help me with some knowlege about the gospel, scriptures, whatever i need to know. On the moment my knowlege is quite limited. And that makes me a bit insecure. I wanna have a dialoque with everyone here. But then i just mis the knowlege and some important doctrines. That is hard. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

The church echoes Joseph Smith's view in its book Gospel Principles:

these gifts have been given to members of the true Church whenever it has been on the earth...."

That is not to say that they have not been given to others. 

Can you show me a reference that says that?

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No it wasn’t.

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were baptized while they were in the process of translating the Book of Mormon. 

You are correct, the date I had was for Joseph Smith Sr.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Charity is a gift of the spirit. Hope is a gift.  Faith is a gift.  Believing is a gift.  Wisdom is a gift. Knowledge is a gift. etc. etc. etc. Are you suggesting that non-members cannot have access to these gifts?

People can have charity, hope, faith, wisdom, knowledge, etc. to varying degrees without these being gifts of the Spirit.

But only members of the Lord’s church those who have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost following baptism and the laying on of hands by those who hold the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods are bestowed with gifts of the Spirit.

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

The Book of Mormon was published before Joseph was baptized 

Let's try again.

I am out, weakling that I am.

 

43 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is not to say that they have not been given to others. 

Can you show me a reference that says that?

I kind of regret interjecting. My only point was to note a current, official source that seems to agree with source in the OP, and to point out my observations. I wasn’t endorsing the idea.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

42 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is not to say that they have not been given to others. 

Can you show me a reference that says that?

The quote by Joseph Smith in the OP says:

"We believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now, as much as it was in the Apostles' days… we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, and in revelations, in gifts, and in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost.

…We believe that the Holy Ghost is imparted by the laying on of hands of those in authority, and that the gift of tongues, and also the gift of prophecy are gifts of the Spirit, and are obtained through that medium"

[Smiley McGee]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Exactly. What Joseph taught is the official doctrine of the church.

Which is the rational way of believing in the Gift of the Holy Ghost Joseph Smith was referring to.

Doctrine is difficult to define in the LDS church, for reasons better explained by other posters in other threads. I’m not sure I can refer to what Joseph taught as doctrine, since I don’t really know how to distinguish doctrine from non-doctrinal teachings.

Joseph referring to his teaching as “rational” seems like a conceptual game. Rationalizing is relative to a framework, and the LDS framework differs from those of other traditions. The LDS teaching doesn’t work in other traditions, which is likely why @MiserereNobis posed their question in the first place. 

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Are you saying that outside of the LDS church there are no gifts of the spirit? So there were no gifts of the spirit from the time of the great apostasy until Joseph Smith?

Yes.

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that have occurred outside of the LDS church?

There’s a difference between people having a spiritual experience or feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost with the accompanying gifts of the Spirit.

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does an editorial by Joseph Smith in a newspaper constitute an official doctrine?

Yes, I believe it does. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

How did JS deal with the Day of Pentecost, where a group was given the gift of the Holy Ghost without first having been baptized?

The did it not receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost without first having been baptized. The people received a witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ was their Savior and then Peter instructed them to be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

"Now on the day of Pentecost, when there was a marvelous display of the gifts, according to the promise in Mark, many were pricked in the heart, and said unto Peter, and to the rest of the Apostles. Men and brethren what shall we do? Peter said unto them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.--Here one of the witnesses says in so many words, repent and be baptized. And we are of the opinion that Peter having been taught by the Lord, and commissioned by the Lord, and endowed by the Lord, would be about as correct a counselor, or ambassador as we or they could enquire of to know the right way to enter into the kingdom.

Again, Luke in his record of the Acts of the Apostles, says: And it came to pass, that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him. We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said: unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.--And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

From the above witnesses we are informed that baptism was the essential point on which they could receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

TPJS, p.263-264

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The did it not receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost without first having been baptized. The people received a witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ was their Savior and then Peter instructed them to be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

"Now on the day of Pentecost, when there was a marvelous display of the gifts, according to the promise in Mark, many were pricked in the heart, and said unto Peter, and to the rest of the Apostles. Men and brethren what shall we do? Peter said unto them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.--Here one of the witnesses says in so many words, repent and be baptized. And we are of the opinion that Peter having been taught by the Lord, and commissioned by the Lord, and endowed by the Lord, would be about as correct a counselor, or ambassador as we or they could enquire of to know the right way to enter into the kingdom.

Again, Luke in his record of the Acts of the Apostles, says: And it came to pass, that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him. We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said: unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.--And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

From the above witnesses we are informed that baptism was the essential point on which they could receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

TPJS, p.263-264

I was referring to Acts 10: 44-48

44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

the statement from Joseph Smith you quoted above is not trying to say that the gifts of the Spirit cannot possibly exist without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Rather, he says that "these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost", meaning as a prolonged and regular process of one's life.

I disagree that this is what he was saying. He said "We believe that the Holy Ghost is imparted by the laying on of hands of those in authority, and that the gift of tongues, and also the gift of prophecy are gifts of the Spirit, and are obtained through that medium," which I believe clearly shows that he believed that this was the only way these gifts are received. 

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

This should be obvious, given the list, as visions and revelations are on his list, and clearly Joseph Smith (and others through history) received visions and revelations prior to receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I don't believe that revelations, visions, and other manifestations of the Holy Ghost always constitute being gifts of the Spirit. Rather I believe that when these things occur prior to receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, they are designed to help people see the truth so that if the press forward in faith they will receive the opportunity to be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by one who has the proper authority from God (the Melchizedek Priesthood).

[Grug the Neanderthal]

53 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was referring to Acts 10: 44-48

44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

This was the very thing that Joseph Smith was talking about in the quote you first responded to. He said, "There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God, he could not have healed the sick or commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man, and it obey him; for the spirits might say unto him, as they did to the sons of Sceva: "Paul we know and Jesus we know, but who are ye?" It mattereth not whether we live long or short on the earth after we come to a knowledge of these principles and obey them unto the end. I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord."

There's obviously a small error in the text Acts 10:45. The gentiles received the Holy Ghost which convinced them of the truth prior to baptism, they did not receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost prior to baptism. Had they not been baptized and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, the Holy Ghost which had convinced them of the truth would have left them. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

This was the very thing that Joseph Smith was talking about in the quote you first responded to. He said, "There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God, he could not have healed the sick or commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man, and it obey him; for the spirits might say unto him, as they did to the sons of Sceva: "Paul we know and Jesus we know, but who are ye?" It mattereth not whether we live long or short on the earth after we come to a knowledge of these principles and obey them unto the end. I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord."

There's obviously a small error in the text Acts 10:45. The gentiles received the Holy Ghost which convinced them of the truth prior to baptism, they did not receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost prior to baptism. Had they not been baptized and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, the Holy Ghost which had convinced them of the truth would have left them. 

I don’t think we can dismiss it as an obvious error though just because it doesn’t match with some thing that Joseph Smith said that he never claimed were doctrinal.

These quotes appear to be him reasoning out ideas based on his understanding of the gospel as he had been taught it up to that point.  

I think we can say that the general rule is that baptism is required, but this moment in Acts seems to be an exception to that rule.