Teachings of Joseph Smith on the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Gifts of the Spirit

[Grug the Neanderthal]

This post is an answer to a request by @MiserereNobis about the teachings of Joseph Smith on the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Gift of the Spirit. The following is from an editorial by Joseph Smith:

The Gift of the Holy Ghost

An Editorial in the "Times and Seasons," by the Prophet

--------------------

"Various and conflicting are the opinions of men in regard to the gift of the Holy Ghost. Some people have been in the habit of calling every supernatural manifestation the effects of the Spirit of God, whilst there are others that think there is no manifestation connected with it at all; and that it is nothing but a mere impulse of the mind, or an inward feeling, and that there is no such a thing as an outward manifestation.

It is not to be wondered at that men should be ignorant, in a great measure, of the principles of salvation, and more especially of the nature, office, power, influence, gifts, and blessings of the gift of the Holy Ghost, when we consider that the human family have been enveloped in gross darkness and ignorance for many centuries past, without revelation, or any just criterion [by which] to arrive at a knowledge of the things of God, which can only be known by the Spirit of God…

We believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now, as much as it was in the Apostles' days... we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, and in revelations, in gifts, and in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost… We believe in it [this gift of the Holy Ghost] in all its fullness, and power, and greatness, and glory; but whilst we do this, we believe in it rationally, consistently, and scripturally, and not according to the wild vagaries, foolish notions and traditions of men... We believe that the Holy Ghost is imparted by the laying on of hands of those in authority, and that the gift of tongues, and also the gift of prophecy are gifts of the Spirit, and are obtained through that medium"

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 242)

Based on this excerpt from the prophet's editorial (and multiple other statements, which can be provided), it is clear that Joseph Smith believed that the only way to receive the Gifts of the Spirit is by being first baptized and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those who have the proper authority from God to perform these ordinances. Which would mean that he believed that no individuals, other than members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints, are in possession of the gifts of the Spirit. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Based on this excerpt from the prophet's editorial (and multiple other statements, which can be provided), it is clear that Joseph Smith believed that the only way to receive the Gifts of the Spirit is by being first baptized and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those who have the proper authority from God to perform these ordinances. Which would mean that he believed that no individuals, other than members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints, are in possession of the gifts of the Spirit. 

As a convert, this is self contradictory.

Moroni 10:4 indicates that one MUST be able to verify, by the spirit, that the "church is true" BY MEANS OF THE SPIRIT before one even commits to baptism.

The "gift of the Holy ghost" is an ORDINANCE received after baptism which it is said, allows the constant presence of the HG, whereas before baptism, one may receive personal revelation, and actually must, before one decides to be baptized.

I believe that children should not be baptized until they have a testimony that they should, but the custom seems to have become a rite of passage encouraged by parents at the age of 8 years, not unlike the Catholic "first holy communion".

There are many parallels there.

My kids were not baptized until they felt they were ready, and understood the Covenants they were making.

The strongest manifestation I have ever had happened BEFORE I was baptized, indicating that I needed to BE baptized.

Yet now I do feel something much closer to what can be described as "(nearly) the constant presence of the Holy Ghost"

I am still working on that  "nearly" part. 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Dario_M]

I also felt the holy ghost from the moment i got baptized and those man where having their hands on me head. I have changed a lot from that moment. The biggest change that i have made is that i'm now way more sensitive for people that judge me. 🧐

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dario_M

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As a convert, this is self contradictory.

Moroni 10:4 indicates that one MUST be able to verify, by the spirit, that the "church is true" BY MEANS OF THE SPIRIT before one even commits to baptism.

The "gift of the Holy ghost" is an ORDINANCE received after baptism which it is said, allows the constant presence of the HG, whereas before baptism, one may receive personal revelation, and actually must, before one decides to be baptized.

I don't see a contradiction here at all. To quote Joseph Smith:

"There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God, he could not have healed the sick or commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man, and it obey him; for the spirits might say unto him, as they did to the sons of Sceva: "Paul we know and Jesus we know, but who are ye?" It mattereth not whether we live long or short on the earth after we come to a knowledge of these principles and obey them unto the end. I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord."

TPJS, p.199
 

[MiserereNobis]

11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Based on this excerpt from the prophet's editorial (and multiple other statements, which can be provided), it is clear that Joseph Smith believed that the only way to receive the Gifts of the Spirit is by being first baptized and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those who have the proper authority from God to perform these ordinances. Which would mean that he believed that no individuals, other than members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints, are in possession of the gifts of the Spirit. 

A few questions:

Are you saying that outside of the LDS church there are no gifts of the spirit? So there were no gifts of the spirit from the time of the great apostasy until Joseph Smith?

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that have occurred outside of the LDS church?

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that occurred before the founding of the LDS church (let's say 400-1830)?

Does an editorial by Joseph Smith in a newspaper constitute an official doctrine?

 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

A few questions:

Are you saying that outside of the LDS church there are no gifts of the spirit? So there were no gifts of the spirit from the time of the great apostasy until Joseph Smith?

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that have occurred outside of the LDS church?

How do you explain all the spiritual experiences that occurred before the founding of the LDS church (let's say 400-1830)?

Does an editorial by Joseph Smith in a newspaper constitute an official doctrine?

 

Look at the post just above- he reversed his earlier position after I pointed it out, and got it right the second time around 

Also Mormons oddly have their own understanding of "damned", they see it as a dam of water that slows or stops progerssion

We don't have hell, the worst we have is PURGATORY, called "spirit prison", a temporary state, like purgatory.

The no damnation thing always confuses people and I will probably get flak on it here.

Only like 5 people in the history of mankind will qualify for outer darkness, one must have nearly a personal theophany and then deny Christ to qualify for OD.

Edited March 1, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I also felt the holy ghost from the moment i got baptized and those man where having their hands on me head. I have changed a lot from that moment. The biggest change that i have made is that i'm now way more sensitive for people that judge me. 🧐

THAT is the key to learning to love everyone- just don't let ANYTHING get "under your skin" - including temptations!  Whatever gets to you, violates your pride and "possess" you for a few minutes. You want to act out, or at least I do.

But that means the spirit is no longer in control, the temptation is!

You have to become conscious of that moment- that the control has switched, so you  can turn it around.

Sorry again for the times I lost it with you.

[MiserereNobis]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Look at the post just above- he reversed his earlier position after I pointed it out, and got it right the second time around 

Also Mormons oddly have their own understanding of "damned", they see it as a dam of water that slows or stops progerssion

We don't have hell, the worst we have is PURGATORY, called "spirit prison", a temporary state, like purgatory.

The no damnation thing always confuses people and I will probably get flak on it here.

Only like 5 people in the history of mankind will qualify for outer darkness, one must have nearly a personal theophany and then deny Christ to qualify for OD.

Based on the pushback he's received from other LDS on other threads and topics, I don't take his views as representative.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how representative your views are with your post-modern relativism  

Thanks as always for your comments!

[Dario_M]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

.

Sorry again for the times I lost it with you.

Yeah you can say that. If there is one person here that have judge me the most that person would be you.

But....i for-give you-ou Bukowski. Because that is the holy ghost in me that make's me do that. 

God bless. 🙏✝️

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dario_M

[InCognitus]

12 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

We believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now, as much as it was in the Apostles' days... we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, and in revelations, in gifts, and in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost… We believe in it [this gift of the Holy Ghost] in all its fullness, and power, and greatness, and glory; but whilst we do this, we believe in it rationally, consistently, and scripturally, and not according to the wild vagaries, foolish notions and traditions of men... We believe that the Holy Ghost is imparted by the laying on of hands of those in authority, and that the gift of tongues, and also the gift of prophecy are gifts of the Spirit, and are obtained through that medium"

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 242)

Based on this excerpt from the prophet's editorial (and multiple other statements, which can be provided), it is clear that Joseph Smith believed that the only way to receive the Gifts of the Spirit is by being first baptized and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those who have the proper authority from God to perform these ordinances. Which would mean that he believed that no individuals, other than members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints, are in possession of the gifts of the Spirit. 

I think you've already figured this out (based on your second quote from Joseph Smith, i.e. "There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. ") that the statement from Joseph Smith you quoted above is not trying to say that the gifts of the Spirit cannot possibly exist without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Rather, he says that "these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost", meaning as a prolonged and regular process of one's life.

This should be obvious, given the list, as visions and revelations are on his list, and clearly Joseph Smith (and others through history) received visions and revelations prior to receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.  I think this could also be true for other things included on the list, depending on the circumstances.

[mfbukowski]

The difference between "damned" and "dammed" has been obscured by Mormon Speach for 2 hundred years.

In Creedal Christianity, "damned" means burning in hell forever.

For us "damned" means being in spirit prison, a temporary state.

Outer Darkness is something altogether different, for which very very few will even be able to qualify.

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Based on the pushback he's received from other LDS on other threads and topics, I don't take his views as representative.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how representative your views are with your post-modern relativism  

Thanks as always for your comments!

There will be further comments, I promise.  It's easy to look up- "lds hell"

Hell

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng

Talking about relativism? You can figure it out for yourself, best wishes! 

Personal revelation is the key- ALWAYS

Edited March 1, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Look at the post just above- he reversed his earlier position after I pointed it out, and got it right the second time around 

No, definitely did not reverse my earlier position. 

The Gifts of the Spirit that one has access to after receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is not the same thing as feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Based on the pushback he's received from other LDS on other threads and topics, I don't take his views as representative.

The active participants of this board are not representative of what most members believe. Not even close.

[mfbukowski]

Just now, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The active participants of this board are not representative of what most members believe. Not even close.

What most people believe is irrelevant. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What most people believe is irrelevant. 

Depends on the context.

If we’re talking about whether or not a particular belief is true, I agree. But if we’re talking about whether or not a teaching is representative of what most members believe, then it does matter.

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, definitely did not reverse my earlier position. 

The Gifts of the Spirit that one has access to after receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is not the same thing as feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost. 

Please describe the difference in a definable way.

Edit:

That's ok, I'm out

Edited March 1, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Please describe the difference in a definable way.

I think the quotes from Joseph Smith I shared describe the difference well. 

[Dario_M]

22 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The active participants of this board are not representative of what most members believe. Not even close.

Why that judging tone again? I'm as much a mormon as anyone else. All the "most members" wich you are talking about right now. I'm also a representative mormon. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 

That's ok, I'm out

Yeah? You can't take it any longer? 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

23 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Why that judging tone again? I'm as much a mormon as anyone else. All the "most members" wich you are talking about right now. I'm also a representative mormon. 

Just stating my observations. The kinds of beliefs that are frequently expressed on this board are not representative of the typical beliefs I hear expressed by most active members of the church, even in private conversations. 

[MustardSeed]

21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Just stating my observations. The kinds of beliefs that are frequently expressed on this board are not representative of the typical beliefs I hear expressed by most active members of the church, even in private conversations. 

I guess the pulse you are taking is a more valid view than the thoughts feelings and opinions on this board. 

[MustardSeed]

53 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah? You can't take it any longer? 

Dario you are poking the wrong bear here, respectfully.  He even apologized again to you in this thread.

Edited March 1, 2023 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don't see a contradiction here at all. To quote Joseph Smith:

"There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God, he could not have healed the sick or commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man, and it obey him; for the spirits might say unto him, as they did to the sons of Sceva: "Paul we know and Jesus we know, but who are ye?" It mattereth not whether we live long or short on the earth after we come to a knowledge of these principles and obey them unto the end. I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord."

TPJS, p.199
 

How did JS deal with the Day of Pentecost, where a group was given the gift of the Holy Ghost without first having been baptized?

[Dario_M]

31 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Dario you are poking the wrong bear here, respectfully.  He even apologized again to you in this thread.

I'm not poking the guy at all. Come on you guys. You see that wrong. I sinserely asked him or he couldn't take it anymore (read our posts) that is what i ment. 

Let's not judge me okay. I allready get enaugh of that. I'm really unhappy. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dario_M