Teachings of Joseph Smith on the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Gifts of the Spirit

[InCognitus]

18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Immediately after death, 

> changing devices <

This is a very accurate depiction of what happens immediately after death.  I'm pretty sure the Wi-Fi signal and cell phone reception will be very different.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It has not been defined well.  THAT is the problem.

I agree.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's different

Yes, it is different or at least should be. 

Which is why I find it strange that people get upset and lash out when teachings by Joseph Smith are shared that shed light on how it’s different and what is obtained by the Gift of the Holy Ghost. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Ok. You make a good point. I may have missed it. Could you please point out where Joseph Smith taught that the manifestations of the Spirit in the pre-LDS or in the ex-LDS (outside) of the LDS church are due to false spirits, which I assume are demons? I would enjoy reading that. I have not heard that before. Thanks

It’s not as black and white as your suggesting here. Joseph Smith didn’t say that every spiritual manifestation outside of the church was the work of false spirits. He also stated that there were false spirits frequently manifested among the Latter-day Saints. 

He wrote a lengthy editorial  on the subject, entitled Try the Spirits:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-april-1842/9

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think you nailed it, probably why I went down the rabbit hole after learning Joseph Smith lived polygamy. I was an avid fan of the book series of the "Work and the Glory". It never said he lived it, unless it said so in the last book or two of the series. I grew up with zero knowledge of church history, so I was a culture Mormon possibly?

I think so, probably.

The deal is people born to it don't STUDY it because they are born with it and "know it all"- or so they think- just because they have grown up in it.

Converts HAVE TO study it- because it is weird stuff about angels and gold plates, and have to make sense of it before one even accepts it enough to pray about it and THEN if God speaks to them about it, they get a testimony and THEN get baptized.

Converts HAVE TO turn what they culturally think is "some weird religion" into first- a reasonable way to think about religious matters, and THEN studying it and THEN getting a testimony.

The key is NOT being "some weird religion" and that is why we are now The Church of Jesus Christ instead of those weird "mormons"- whatever that means.   I thought mormons worshiped American Indian saints before I studied it out.

If I knew they were even Christians, it would have made a huge difference.

Lifers have no idea what it is like to see the church from the outside- THAT is the problem and the solution.  Spruce up and clarify that cultural image!

 

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It’s not as black and white as your suggesting here. Joseph Smith didn’t say that every spiritual manifestation outside of the church was the work of false spirits. He also stated that there were false spirits frequently manifested among the Latter-day Saints. 

He wrote a lengthy editorial  on the subject, entitled Try the Spirits:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-april-1842/9

How do you turn the page?   Is this the one mentioning shaking hands?  Section 129 is much easier to read.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129?lang=eng

Clearly though this is a delicate area- not sure why you would bring this up.

 

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I agree.

Yes, it is different or at least should be. 

Which is why I find it strange that people get upset and lash out when teachings by Joseph Smith are shared that shed light on how it’s different and what is obtained by the Gift of the Holy Ghost. 

It's subjective and everyone feels it differently, defining it with words is impossible and the very suggestion that it can be put into words distorts it beyond recogntion.

THAT is why.

It is like arguing if the color red that I see is the same color of red that you see or if your red is my green.

There is a reason it has not been better defined- it cannot be!  Trying is distorting the sacred experience- and that is exactly what you are doing unknowingly.  It is not a game in which one can "break rules".   It is not science, it is not governed by any rules and magic formulas, but it IS GOD speaking to his own children in their own private languages we all have with the Creator.

Just speaking about these matters creates a cultural mish-mash.    Witch of Endor?  In 2023?  THAT is a cultural clash if I ever heard of one which distorts both contexts.   I think this creates a confusion which has taken over this entire thread.

Edited March 4, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How do you turn the page? 

There are arrows at the bottom to turn the page.

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

not sure why you would bring this up.

A) Because discerning whether spiritual manifestations are from the Holy Ghost or false spirits is really important.

B) Because I was asked to provide this. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is like arguing if the color red that I see is the same color of red that you see or if your red is my green.

So why do people insist on arguing in this way. The spirit of contention? 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So why do people insist on arguing in this way. The spirit of contention? 

And what does that mean?   A big old monster with the word "Contention" written on his chest?

DEFINITELY a FEELING of contention.

Joseph:  proving contraries is the way to truth.

Dilectics.   Old as Soctrates.

Quote

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/tasting-the-light?lang=eng

Opposition is indispensable to our education and happiness. Without opposition, the truth remains hidden in plain view, like taking air for granted until the moment you are gasping for it. Because the Light of Christ is everpresent, many people don’t notice the Spirit in their life, like those Lamanites in 3 Nephi 9:20 who “were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.”

Opposition not only reveals or unveils the truth but manifests its inherent power, joy, and sweetness. For example, it took a taste of the bitter life for the prodigal son to realize what a sweet life he had abandoned back home and had taken for granted in his youth.

It is only through pain and sickness that we come to value our health. As a victim of dishonesty, we treasure integrity. Experiencing injustice or cruelty, we cherish love and kindness—all with a “perfect knowledge,” having tasted the fruit of each by the light which is in us. The perfect knowledge comes fruit by fruit, through opposition in all things. Obedience to God’s commandments promises ultimate happiness, growth, and progress through opposition, not bypassing it. “Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors.” 3

Consider this insightful statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith: “By proving contraries, truth is made manifest.” 4

And this one from Brigham Young: “All facts are proved and made manifest by their opposite.” 5

 

Ok

No more, at least for today.

Day by day to be arranged by the spirit for me.

Got stuff to do and none of this is improving my life lately.

Edited March 4, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Having trouble understanding you.

Are you advocating one truth existing outside of perception, or many truths based on perception?

If the latter, then calling something true means "we agree".

Most contemporary philosophers would pick the latter of these alternatives.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

"Deflationism about truth, what is often simply called “deflationism”, is really not so much a theory of truth in the traditional sense, as it is a different, newer sort of approach to the topic. Traditional theories of truth are part of a philosophical debate about the nature of a supposed property of truth. Philosophers offering such theories often make suggestions like the following: truth consists in correspondence to the facts; truth consists in coherence with a set of beliefs or propositions; truth is what is acceptable in the ideal limit of inquiry. According to deflationists, such suggestions are mistaken, and, moreover, they all share a common mistake. The common mistake is to assume that truth has a nature of the kind that philosophers might find out about and develop theories of."

I am advocating for many truths based on perception, while acknowledging that God is the one truth. The challenge there is we cannot perceive or know the one truth on this side of the veil and depending how God works on the other side, maybe not there either for years, or eons, or ages!

I think for me to call something true doesn't mean I agree with anyone else, just that I agree with myself. Truth is intensely personal. Of course words matter. I am not a non-believer . . . that is my truth.

Of course, as I learned yesterday, to the faithful member of the LDS church, I am an unbeliever. If I don't believe in the specifics of the gospel as you believe it, then I am simply an unbeliever. I could never get my head around calling a member of the LDS church an non-believer because her vision of the gospel is in some ways different from mine, therefore she has the truth and I don't. Ditto for the non-LDS Christian Fundamentalist.

But, my LDS friends often protest, "God is not a God of confusion!" I can't get my head around a conclusion that divergent paths indicate confusion. If I want to go to my pecan orchard, I can go this way or that way. I am never confused . . . I just sometimes take different roads to get there. It depends on the rain . . . lots of things. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. We will all ultimately experience that.

In this world, many of us come to Christ via different paths. In the next we will judged by Him using criteria we can't even begin to understand today. We try and try and try to form, shape, and mold the gospel in the way that is truth for us. For many of us, we must make the gospel into a kaleidoscope that we turn and turn until satisfied we have it right. Of course, we hand off the kaleidoscope to our Pentecostal friend and he turns and turns until it makes sense for him. Then our Bahai friend does the same. Then it gets handed to our Anglican or Catholic friend and it gets turned and turned.

Then we are faced with our Boko friend in the jungle of Africa. She hasn't been provided a kaleidoscope, just the rays of sun on the water of the flowing river. She also tries to find truth in that. What will Christ via his death, burial, and resurrection do for her; what has He done for her already? Is her ultimate truth in the post Nicene Christian's idea of baptism, either in this world or the next? Is her ultimate truth in some form of LDS ordinance or exaltation in the next life? I don't think so.

The ultimate truth of the gospel is like the jigsaw puzzle in the box. All the pieces are there. But the picture of the completed puzzle is missing from the lid. Some spend all our lives trying to put it together. Others find the comfort of truth in knowing all the pieces are in the box and they guard the box. Others are busy cutting and shaping their own pieces, certain that something is missing in the puzzle, the entirety of which they have not yet completely comprehended. And so on. Some don't even open the box; they are certain they know what the finished puzzle will look like. They are our certainists. Each religious or even atheistic group has some of those!

I am more inclined to finding truth and satisfaction in knowing someday I will see the puzzle in its completion. Just . . . not today! That is ok.

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Navidad said:

Then we are faced with our Boko friend in the jungle of Africa. She hasn't been provided a kaleidoscope, just the rays of sun on the water of the flowing river. She also tries to find truth in that. What will Christ via his death, burial, and resurrection do for her; what has He done for her already? Is her ultimate truth in the post Nicene Christian's idea of baptism, either in this world or the next? Is her ultimate truth in some form of LDS ordinance or exaltation in the next life? I don't think so.

Oh my.

Here I go again a little bit after saying I am out.

YOU STILL after all your time in the church, do not even understand the basic elements of work for the dead.  It's shocking and continues to scare me about how much you are NOT being taught by your ward.   This is an incredibly basic issue.  It is not your fault- but you simply do not yet understand basic doctrine.  You are incredibly intelligent, but still the INFORMATION about our paradigm has not gotten in for whatever reason.

Doctrine:

She will die and go to paradise, or possibly spirit prison.  Who knows.   Wherever it is,she will be met by missionaries on the other side who WILL teach here LDS gospel principles, which she can accept or not accept..   

If she does not accept, she will still go to a kingdom of glory AFTER the resurrection, possibly the telestial or terestrial kingdom depending on how "good" she was in this life.

IF she embraced the gospel fully from those missionaries, and actively pursues the doctrine of Jesus Christ (according to us), as she is waiting for the registration, she will move on to paradise from spirit prison IF that is where she went after dying.

So how will she have her "temple work" done?  Even if she never has heard in her whole life about Jesus Christ or ANYTHING about the (LDS) gospel?

Suppose her genealogy is not correct nor ever found nor ever written down?

The belief is that during the Millenium there are 1000 years for such people, when the veil is thin and Christ reigns in his theocracy, she will be able to appear to those still alive in this world, to APPEAR to someone in the temple and say, Effectively "HEY YOU GUYS HERE I AM!  I want my work to be done for me by proxy!"  And since this, during the Millenium is a routine thing, they will make sure that her work is "done".

So now she is as eligible as any LDS person born in the church, "under the covenant" to be endowed and exalted.

VERY SIMPLE.

Missionaries on the other side.   "EVERY knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ is their SAVIOR" and that implies receiving their ordinances even after death as necessary.

So according to our DOCTRINE,   EVERYONE will eventually have a chance to become what we now call "LDS" regardless of if it is in this world or in the ever after.

Quote

She also tries to find truth in that. What will Christ via his death, burial, and resurrection do for her; what has He done for her already? Is her ultimate truth in the post Nicene Christian's idea of baptism, either in this world or the next? Is her ultimate truth in some form of LDS ordinance or exaltation in the next life? I don't think so.

SHE WILL know all of it!

No one is left out.

This is simple doctrine and every word can be shown through church literature.

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am more inclined to finding truth and satisfaction in knowing someday I will see the puzzle in its completion. Just . . . not today! That is ok.

You are not less than your BOKO friend.

You will know it when you see it just like everyone else will.   AT least that is what I and the church are trying to tell you.

[Vanguard]

16 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So for the third or fourth time (and please don’t dodge the question this time), I would really like you to answer the question about what the purpose of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is if the Gift of the Holy Ghost, with all of it's blessings, can be obtained without this ordinance. Or alternatively please explain what it is that you believe is given when one receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands that can be received in no other way.

I too would like to know how we can experience the HG differently after we've received the ordinance? For starters, I can't speak of it first hand because I don't remember what the experience was like before the ordinance (I was born into the faith). Secondly, I'm sure there are converts here who might speak to this difference though I suspect the wording they would use is identical to how many non-LDS Christians would describe the experience - an experience they've had all of their lives.   

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It’s not as black and white as your suggesting here. Joseph Smith didn’t say that every spiritual manifestation outside of the church was the work of false spirits. He also stated that there were false spirits frequently manifested among the Latter-day Saints. 

He wrote a lengthy editorial  on the subject, entitled Try the Spirits:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-april-1842/9

Thanks I just read the editorial. I enjoy learning and reading things that are interesting. Maybe I missed it, but I found no references to times when in this current dispensation a non-LDS person accurately discerned the spirits. Did I simply miss it? In all his talk about the Shakers, Methodists, Irvingites (I had to look that one up - really interesting group), and Presbyterians, he seemed to come to the conclusion that none of them had any ability (God-given) to discern among the spirits. He didn't really say it, but he seemed to come to the conclusion that such discernment was impossible outside of the unique priesthood of the men of the LDS church.
 

Having served a mission in the bush of Africa, I reject his conclusion on that subject. I saw some amazing things and saw some amazingly Godly men sift through them via the power of the Holy Spirit. I am sorry you don't ever put yourself in a place where you might see that kind of power in members of other churches. Let me assure you, it is indeed there. There were some Saints, like President Woodruff who acknowledged the spiritual power of non-LDS believers. As one who lived both before and after the founding of the LDS church, he had a unique perspective on that point. Take care and thanks for leading me to that editorial. I don't think I have read it before.

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think so, probably.

The deal is people born to it don't STUDY it because they are born with it and "know it all"- or so they think- just because they have grown up in it.

Converts HAVE TO study it- because it is weird stuff about angels and gold plates, and have to make sense of it before one even accepts it enough to pray about it and THEN if God speaks to them about it, they get a testimony and THEN get baptized.

Converts HAVE TO turn what they culturally think is "some weird religion" into first- a reasonable way to think about religious matters, and THEN studying it and THEN getting a testimony.

The key is NOT being "some weird religion" and that is why we are now The Church of Jesus Christ instead of those weird "mormons"- whatever that means.   I thought mormons worshiped American Indian saints before I studied it out.

If I knew they were even Christians, it would have made a huge difference.

Lifers have no idea what it is like to see the church from the outside- THAT is the problem and the solution.  Spruce up and clarify that cultural image!

 

Lifers also have no idea what it is like to see other churches from the inside! That is the problem and the solution. Come face to face with Spirit filled Presbyterians and it is pretty hard to say they can't and don't have the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Never meet one and it is easy to say anything you want about them! Now that would be the problem and its solution! 😀

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my.

Here I go again a little bit after saying I am out.

YOU STILL after all your time in the church, do not even understand the basic elements of work for the dead.  It's shocking and continues to scare me about how much you are NOT being taught by your ward.   This is an incredibly basic issue.  It is not your fault- but you simply do not yet understand basic doctrine.  You are incredibly intelligent, but still the INFORMATION about our paradigm has not gotten in for whatever reason.

Doctrine:

She will die and go to paradise, or possibly spirit prison.  Who knows.   Wherever it is,she will be met by missionaries on the other side who WILL teach here LDS gospel principles, which she can accept or not accept..   

If she does not accept, she will still go to a kingdom of glory AFTER the resurrection, possibly the telestial or terestrial kingdom depending on how "good" she was in this life.

IF she embraced the gospel fully from those missionaries, and actively pursues the doctrine of Jesus Christ (according to us), as she is waiting for the registration, she will move on to paradise from spirit prison IF that is where she went after dying.

So how will she have her "temple work" done?  Even if she never has heard in her whole life about Jesus Christ or ANYTHING about the (LDS) gospel?

Suppose her genealogy is not correct nor ever found nor ever written down?

The belief is that during the Millenium there are 1000 years for such people, when the veil is thin and Christ reigns in his theocracy, she will be able to appear to those still alive in this world, to APPEAR to someone in the temple and say, Effectively "HEY YOU GUYS HERE I AM!  I want my work to be done for me by proxy!"  And since this, during the Millenium is a routine thing, they will make sure that her work is "done".

So now she is as eligible as any LDS person born in the church, "under the covenant" to be endowed and exalted.

VERY SIMPLE.

Missionaries on the other side.   "EVERY knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ is their SAVIOR" and that implies receiving their ordinances even after death as necessary.

So according to our DOCTRINE,   EVERYONE will eventually have a chance to become what we now call "LDS" regardless of if it is in this world or in the ever after.

SHE WILL know all of it!

No one is left out.

This is simple doctrine and every word can be shown through church literature.

Hi! I hope you haven't gone away yet! I myself have to get off the computer and go spend some time with my wife. I think you may be missing something, and I hesitate to say this. It isn't that I have not been taught (granted mostly from this forum and self-taught). You are correct in that there is little doctrinal teaching of any kind in our ward. It is conference talk in Sacrament, RS, and EQ. Nothing else. Sunday school is hurry hurry hurry through ten chapters an hour. If I were teaching we wouldn't get through ten verses! Ha! Conference talks are not doctrine. I hope no one is offended by that. Conference talks are 15 minute devotionals. Many are wonderful, but they are far more devotional than doctrinal.

What I want to point out is that I am provisionally certain (there is that term again) that the LDS version of eschatology is not something with which I can agree. I have spent countless hours reading, studying, and being on this forum and in the ward. I simply and at this point, do not agree with the LDS version of salvation (including the exaltation part of salvation) in the next world.

Now, I also fully admit that I don't know how the puzzle will look in its entirety because I don't believe that is something the Spirit has chosen to reveal to us, either by means of special or general revelation. At this point in my understanding I believe the Boko woman will be judged as I will be. I am very provisionally certain it won't be by the standards or practices of any one, two, or three existing churches. It is all about Christ - He is the center and focal point of everyone's salvation experience and ultimate destiny for eternity. It is about His justice, mercy, and righteousness, not about some ordinance(s) - whether Catholic, Baptist, Mennonite, or LDS.

It may be that I don't yet fully understand. I will stipulate to that. But at this point I reject any ordinance, earthly denominational, church with a small c construct of the eternities. For me right now it is all about trust in Christ, His mercy and righteous judgment. I rest content in that. Take care my friend.

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I learned yesterday, to the faithful member of the LDS church, I am an unbeliever. If I don't believe in the specifics of the gospel as you believe it, then I am simply an unbeliever. I could never get my head around calling a member of the LDS church a non-believer because her vision of the gospel is in some ways different from mine, therefore she has the truth and I don't.

I find it’s like standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon, taking in its surreal majesty, and the person next to me turns to me and tells me there’s no way I could appreciate what’s before me because I didn’t follow the same google map directions to get there as they did. Even worse, they’re convinced they’re doing me a service by telling that. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

I too would like to know how we can experience the HG differently after we've received the ordinance? For starters, I can't speak of it first hand because I don't remember what the experience was like before the ordinance (I was born into the faith). Secondly, I'm sure there are converts here who might speak to this difference though I suspect the wording they would use is identical to how many non-LDS Christians would describe the experience - an experience they've had all of their lives.   

Well, I think the fact that out of all of the people on this board who have supposedly received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, no one can say what this gift actually entails is a serious problem. 

[Vanguard]

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Well, I think the fact that out of all of the people on this board who have supposedly received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, no one can say what this gift actually entails is a serious problem. 

Yup. There has to be SOMETHING different though - just don't ask me what it is. ; )

[Calm]

Quote

I learned yesterday, to the faithful member of the LDS church, I am an unbeliever.

It depends on the context. If it is Christianity and Jesus Christ, of course you are a believer as I am and as all the Catholics and other Christians on the board. But you do not accept The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be what it claims to be, so would you say you believe in it as truth and the way you should be following?

If someone is talking about Catholicism, I am an unbeliever even if I share some beliefs because I do not accept what it claims for itself as a whole even if I have much respect and love for the faith. I am an unbeliever in the Mennonite faith as well for the same reason. Why be offended?

Edited March 5, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks I just read the editorial. I enjoy learning and reading things that are interesting. Maybe I missed it, but I found no references to times when in this current dispensation a non-LDS person accurately discerned the spirits. Did I simply miss it? In all his talk about the Shakers, Methodists, Irvingites (I had to look that one up - really interesting group), and Presbyterians, he seemed to come to the conclusion that none of them had any ability (God-given) to discern among the spirits. He didn't really say it, but he seemed to come to the conclusion that such discernment was impossible outside of the unique priesthood of the men of the LDS church.
 

Having served a mission in the bush of Africa, I reject his conclusion on that subject. I saw some amazing things and saw some amazingly Godly men sift through them via the power of the Holy Spirit. I am sorry you don't ever put yourself in a place where you might see that kind of power in members of other churches. Let me assure you, it is indeed there. There were some Saints, like President Woodruff who acknowledged the spiritual power of non-LDS believers. As one who lived both before and after the founding of the LDS church, he had a unique perspective on that point. Take care and thanks for leading me to that editorial. I don't think I have read it before.

I’m glad you enjoyed the editorial and were able to getting a better understanding of what Joseph Smith taught. I’m not at all surprised that you reject what he taught in this editorial. And that’s fine. I don’t expect to convince you, but I believe what Joseph Smith taught in his editorial. 

And with all due respect, you have no idea what places I have or haven’t put myself in to see the "power" members of other churches have. I know plenty of good and honorable people of faith in other Christian denominations. I have attended other churches, prayed and studied the scriptures with members of other churches, and have done ministering and service with members of other churches. I’m not nearly as ignorant as you seem to suppose. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

I find it’s like standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon, taking in its surreal majesty, and the person next to me turns to me and tells me there’s no way I could appreciate what’s before me because I didn’t follow the same google map directions to get there as they did. Even worse, they’re convinced they’re doing me a service by telling that. 

I agree if that is how it is presented it is condescending at the very least and has no grasp of possible depth and range of the other’s experience. If on the other hand, they are simply saying you can’t appreciate it in the same way because you aren’t looking for the same landmarks, the same signifiers of beauty that they are looking for because of what they have been taught and experienced as meaningful on their journey there just as they will not experience it as you because you see it through a different filter due to your own experiences, do you take issue with that?

Edited March 5, 2023 by Calm

[Smiley McGee]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree if that is how it is presented it is condescending at the very least and has no grasp of possible depth and range of the other’s experience. If on the other hand, they are simply saying you can’t appreciate it in the same way because you aren’t looking for the same landmarks, the same signifiers of beauty that they are looking for because of what they have been taught and experienced as meaningful on their journey there just as they will not experience it as you because you see it through a different filter due to your own experiences, do you take issue with that?

I don’t know that I understand the point you’re trying to make. 

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

I don’t know that I understand the point you’re trying to make. 

If someone says you can’t appreciate the beauty of the Canyon the way they do, but they cannot do the same for your experience, do you find that inappropriate?

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Well, I think the fact that out of all of the people on this board who have supposedly received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, no one can say what this gift actually entails is a serious problem. 

I am not sure about that. I will leave that up to my LDS friends to discuss. What I can tell you is this . . . In 1973 when I was ordained to the gospel ministry a group of Godly Christians laid their hands on me. Then when I was licensed to the gospel ministry in 1993 in another group, yet another group of Godly Christians laid their hands on me. Both times it was a very moving and touching experience. I felt their love and genuineness both times. They were powerful experiences. I can close my eyes now in 2023 and still feel it. It wasn't authority or power it was love, concern, and sort of dedicating me to the ministry of Christ through the Holy Spirit. No other group, regardless of their beliefs about me can take that away from me. It was clearly (to me at least) from Christ via the Holy Spirit through those elders. I was ordained to the work of ministry, counseling, teaching, and preaching because that is what they believed to be my gifts. I hope for now those fifty years I have proven faithful to their trust and confidence in me.