God in our Image?

[Niblo]

27 minutes ago, Islander said:

I disagree. I suggest that your view of God makes him a very small "god". You have no scriptural bases to demonstrate that the God of the universe is a work in progress. As He has revealed Himself in scripture we see an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without beginning or end. This idea of "progression" of God is totally foreign to the scriptures.

Indeed.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

I disagree. I suggest that your view of God makes him a very small "god". You have no scriptural bases to demonstrate that the God of the universe is a work in progress. As He has revealed Himself in scripture we see an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without beginning or end. This idea of "progression" of God is totally foreign to the scriptures.

So "eternal progression" stops?

Whatever floats your boat.

[MustardSeed]

I hope He and Me and Thee never stop growing.  

[Pyreaux]

16 hours ago, Islander said:

I disagree. I suggest that your view of God makes him a very small "god". You have no scriptural bases to demonstrate that the God of the universe is a work in progress. As He has revealed Himself in scripture we see an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without beginning or end. This idea of "progression" of God is totally foreign to the scriptures.

Were the works of Creation not a sort of progress? A non-Creator in a void one day, the Creator of many things in several progressive days after. With each created thing, more children he has, He improves and expands His dominion the more He makes.

Yhwh was made the first born, inherited a great name and the nation of Israel from his Father becoming the God of Israel. Changed from a spirit into a human, grew in wisdom, experience temptations to perfect his judgment, died and resurrected into the perfect image of His Father.

Perhaps his unchanging nature has more to do with his consistency and character, fulfilling Him promises, and less to do than with his state of being at any given moment in time. Perhaps these ideas you are saying are "scriptural", are in reality what you've projected from your human invented, neo-platonic philosophical and metaphysical, ideas on to your "image of God" (so to speak, to bring it back around to the topic).

Without use of Greek religious philosophy, what does one even mean by Omniscience? all-knowing · all-wise · all-seeing? Is knowledge finite and limited or ever increasing? If that's the case then a progressive God is bigger than a capped one, as true omniscience would be linked to ever learning as the well of knowledge expands.

What is omnipotence? Is it all that may or can be done by power conditioned by other eternal actualities, and cannot act out of harmony with those other eternal actualities, therefore conditions or even limits of himself... To be clear, like not all powerful enough to metaphysically microwave a burrito that was so hot that even He couldn't eat it.  That's a paradox and a waste of a burrito.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Niblo]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Yhwh was made the first born, inherited a great name and the nation of Israel from his Father...

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

 

 

Evidence?

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Were the works of Creation not a sort of progress? A non-Creator in a void one day, the Creator of many things in several progressive days after. With each created thing, more children he has, He improves and expands His dominion the more He makes.

Yhwh was made the first born, inherited a great name and the nation of Israel from his Father becoming the God of Israel. Changed from a spirit into a human, grew in wisdom, experience temptations to perfect his judgment, died and resurrected into the perfect image of His Father.

Perhaps his unchanging nature has more to do with his consistency and character, fulfilling Him promises, and less to do than with his state of being at any given moment in time. Perhaps these ideas you are saying are "scriptural", are in reality what you've projected from your human invented, neo-platonic philosophical and metaphysical, ideas on to your "image of God" (so to speak, to bring it back around to the topic).

Without use of Greek religious philosophy, what does one even mean by Omniscience? all-knowing · all-wise · all-seeing? Is knowledge finite and limited or ever increasing? If that's the case then a progressive God is bigger than a capped one, as true omniscience would be linked to ever learning as the well of knowledge expands.

What is omnipotence? Is it all that may or can be done by power conditioned by other eternal actualities, and cannot act out of harmony with those other eternal actualities, therefore conditions or even limits of himself... To be clear, like not all powerful enough to metaphysically microwave a burrito that was so hot that even He couldn't eat it.  That's a paradox and a waste of a burrito.

 

Bruce R McConkie did not believe that God progressed in knowledge or abilities but through His ever increasing new worlds He was creating constantly, and his new children.

Yet to me, one would have to know the particular details and differences each new world and child, so that also implies growth in knowledge and abilities 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/

Edited January 7, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Dario_M]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:43 PM, mfbukowski said:

 

Why Christians base their theology on pagan Greeks is beyond my understanding: another historic disaster.

Chistians? We are on a Mormon forum. Mormons are no Christians first of all. 

Christians base their theology on the Bible. The first testament or the second testament. And all that stuff comes from the middle east. Israel. I don't understand why you add Greeks into this. 🤯

But while we are on a Mormon forum and not a Christian forum i also wanna say that we as Mormons also have another testament. The book of Mormon. Based on the golden plates that has been found in New York and are originaly from You won't geuss... Also middle east!😱 Woow can you believe that? The golden plates are originaly from Egypt. 

This all has nothing to do with the Greeks at all. And their theology. 

So no disaster in our LDS church or Christian church. No no. Not at all. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Dario_M

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Mormons are no Christians first of all.

Would you like to elaborate on this? Not sure I understand what you are saying? Thanks.

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Would you like to elaborate on this? Not sure I understand what you are saying? Thanks.

No i don't. Elaborate yourself. Mormons are Mormons and Christians are Christians. You know Christians....like Catholics, Protestands etc.

You re welcome.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Dario_M

[MiserereNobis]

On 1/2/2023 at 9:43 AM, Pyreaux said:

We do this to a lot of historical figures. We paint Charlemagne, the First Knight of the Crusades, as white, when he was black.

Can you elaborate here? I've poked around the internet and found only fringe debunked ideas that Charlemagne was black.

On 1/2/2023 at 9:43 AM, Pyreaux said:

It's not just white people who do this. Ever seen a Buddha statue that wasn't Asian? Buddha was a nobleman from the Aryan steppes of Russia, and so was probably white, only he has a billion Asian adherents who depict him like themselves.

Siddhartha Gautama was not from the Russian steppes. He lived in what is modern-day Nepal.

[CA Steve]

50 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

No i don't. Elaborate yourself. Mormons are Mormons and Christians are Christians. You know Christians....like Catholics, Protestands etc.

You re welcome.

I am a Mormon and a Christian.

Speak for yourself please.

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Can you elaborate here? I've poked around the internet and found only fringe debunked ideas that Charlemagne was black.

Siddhartha Gautama was not from the Russian steppes. He lived in what is modern-day Nepal.

You mean he wasn't Mormon?

 

😜

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I am a Mormon and a Christian.

Speak for yourself please.

Yay!

Popcorn time!

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

No i don't. Elaborate yourself. Mormons are Mormons and Christians are Christians. You know Christians....like Catholics, Protestands etc.

You re welcome.

People who believe in and accept salvation thru Jesus Christ are Christians. Those people include Church members and Catholics and Protestants and their various offshoots.

We all differ on extraneous aspects of our faiths but are unified in that core belief.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I am a Mormon and a Christian.

Speak for yourself please.

Ha! I am Mennonite and a Christian and am neither Protestant or Catholic. Methinks I am semi-Mormon. Maybe that is better than saying I am a faithful non-member! 🙃

[Navidad]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:43 PM, mfbukowski said:

Then does He progress?

Yes I have read McConkie on that and disagree.

The idea that God does NOT change comes from Greek philosophy and language because "perfect" MEANS "complete" in Greek and progression and perfection of something/ someone must include a change in status.

Just another part of the apostasy caused by Greek, Platonic philosophy.

Why Christians base their theology on pagan Greeks is beyond my understanding: another historic disaster.

I think it was the later Greeks who based their theology on the Christians! 😄 I would have thought you knew that! Haven't you read where Epictetus raved about those Galileans? Paul told Titus (I think it was) that he was going to winter in Nicopolis - isn't that where Epictetus had his school? You see, Paul was a guest professor for the winter semester at the famous school that Epictetus founded in that old city. He taught there to instruct the Greeks in all things Christian!   . . . . . . I just made all that up. Well, not really - most of it is true, sort of! The chronology is off about ten years, but we can't let a little thing like that ruin a good story! 🙃

[Pyreaux]

21 hours ago, Niblo said:

Evidence?

Hebrews 1:2 [God's] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [The great ineffable name of Yhwh, God made him his begotten son] 5 Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? [This is before he was born of Mary, as this is an old tale Jews deleted from Deuteronomy 32:43 as the original was in 4Q44 Deuteronomy "bow down to him, all gods", Septuagint "let all the angels of God worship him... and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him"] 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [and then created earth] 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth..."

Masoretic Jews after 70 AD whitewashed Bible Deuteronomy 32 and other prooftexts that show Yhwh, the Lord-God is the Most High God's Son, and Jesus claimed to be this OT Son of God, not merely referring to his conception. Deuteronomy's song of Ha’azinu in chapter 32, "8 When the Most High divided [by casting lots] to the nations [each with one of his godly sons] their inheritance", the Masoretic Jews inserted "children of Israel" in verse 8, but it is preserved in the Septuagint and 4QDeuteronomyj from Qumran as "[the elohim], the gods". It describes the aftermath of when the gods scattered Babel, "let us go down" was the voice of the council of gods (Genesis 11:7). God Most High, divided humanity into 70 nations (Genesis 10) as there are Seventy sons of god, and El Elyon split territory to each nation “according to the number of minor gods" and each god thus inherited a nation, and Yhwh receives Jacob-Israel as the "lot" of his "inheritance" from His Father, Elyon, "9 For [Yhwh's] portion is His people; Jacob[-Israel] is the lot of His inheritance", (Deut 32:8-9). His fellow sons of God are depicted as the satanic rivels of Yhwh (Job 1:6) and the Psalmist calls for the Father, Elyon, to punish the gods of the nations via a fall, and for Yhwh to "inherit" them all (Psalm 82) so even in this psalmist's time, Yhwh is still only the God of Israel. Jesus claims the Gentiles by adopting them as Israelites, and thus gaining dominion over them. The foreign gods of Gentiles are the Demons in Haazinu (Deut 32:17). "They shall sacrifice to demons, gods which they did not know". Then they are named (23-24) "They shall be wasted with Hunger, fought by Reshef, and Qeteb (and?) Meriri." Resheph is a well-known name of a Canaanite god, who is known in the Bible as a demon shooting arrows of disease (Hab 3:5, Job 5:7). The others appear again in the Bible (Hosea 13:14, possibly also Job 3:5). Ba'al is the god of Phoenicia, and Jesus acknowledges him as a real person, a demon (2 Kings 1:2–3, 6, 16; Mark 3:22).

So Yhwh, though a preeminent Son, king over his brothers who worship him, He only became the God of Israel after the fall of Babel. Progress.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

Also, everyone, be kind to Dario_M, he's new to Mormonism, new to this forum, and not a native speaker. So, if you must address any mistake he may make at articulation, please instruct him without putting him down. We are indeed not "traditional" Christians as I take his meaning. Traditions that might be scripture based are not scriptures and can be superseded by new revelations. Though we argue there is ancient harmony to be found.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

No i don't. Elaborate yourself. Mormons are Mormons and Christians are Christians. You know Christians....like Catholics, Protestands etc.

You re welcome.

Dario, we are a restorationist Christian church, which means we claim we started through revelation and not through breaking off from another Christian faith, but this does not mean we aren’t Christian, Christian just meaning in English at least a follower of Christ, typically believing he is God.

There can be some confusion because some people define Christian differently.  The Church is moving away from the use of “Mormon” in part because of the confusion the nickname causes.

Here is something about us being Christian on the Church’s website, so about as official as you can get without it being a proclamation or something.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/christians?lang=eng

Quote

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christians. They worship God the Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ. When asked what the Latter-day Saints believe, Joseph Smith put Christ at the center: “The fundamental principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, ‘that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;’ and all other things are only appendages to these, which pertain to our religion.”1 The modern-day Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reaffirmed that testimony when they proclaimed, “Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.”2

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

40 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You see, Paul was a guest professor for the winter semester at the famous school that Epictetus founded in that old city. He taught there to instruct the Greeks in all things Christian!   . . . . . .

Not possible! That would put him on Christmas break, when he would be out worshipping evergreen trees in his red suit and white beard and pointed red hat.

You just don't know nuthin'. 😡

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Can you elaborate here? I've poked around the internet and found only fringe debunked ideas that Charlemagne was black.

Siddhartha Gautama was not from the Russian steppes. He lived in what is modern-day Nepal.

Nepal's ethnicity is composed of mainly Tibet and other nomadic people. Shakyamuni Buddha was from a tribe descended from the Scythians, which were Indo-European and Aryan who had migrated to the Pontic Steppe in modern-day Ukraine and Southern Russia. I must admit I am mainly repeating what my Bodhisattva Buddhist friend tells me, so take with salt. Also, with the disputed ethnicity of the Frankish royalty.

[Dario_M]

I am blown away by all the hate i receive. Fine then. What you guys want. Mormons are Christians. Fine. 

But all the other thinks that @mfbukowski says about the greeks and everything is just a bunch of nonsens. 

And popcorn??? Are we still in high school? What a nasty person are you @mfbukowski

Edited January 7, 2023 by Dario_M

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I am blown away by all the hate i receive. Fine then. What you guys want. Mormons are Christians. Fine. 

But all the other thinks that @mfbukowski says about the greeks and everything is just a bunch of nonsens. 

And popcorn??? Are we still in high school? What a nasty person are you @mfbukowski

Wow. I was just goofing around, unaware.  Very very sorry. If there is something I can do to fix it, I will.

I think I need a break from this board, though frankly it is an addiction, and I am having trouble taking it seriously, and so I end up being offensive.

If there is anything I can do to help make up for this, please tell me.

 

[Dario_M]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Wow. I was just goofing around, unaware.  Very very sorry. If there is something I can do to fix it, I will.

I think I need a break from this board, though frankly it is an addiction, and I am having trouble taking it seriously, and so I end up being offensive.

If there is anything I can do to help make up for this, please tell me.

 

Okay then. Yes i made a mistake about Mormons not being Christians. But i can remember that i heard something like that in my church. That "we Mormons are differend from the other Christians." Everyone tells me something else. It is for me also confusing. 

I accept your apology though. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Dario_M

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Ha! I am Mennonite and a Christian and am neither Protestant or Catholic. Methinks I am semi-Mormon. Maybe that is better than saying I am a faithful non-member! 🙃

Woah. I met a gorgeous Mennonite once at a nude beach in Virginia. From the Augsburger family. Never forgot her.