What Can Faithful Non-Members Do in the Spiritual Life and Ministry of a Ward or Stake?

[Calm]

Was this the post?

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75015-what-can-faithful-non-members-do-in-the-spiritual-life-and-ministry-of-a-ward-or-stake/?do=findComment&comment=1210128972

Quote

Defining a set requires a definition of who/what is IN the set and who/what is OUT.  If there are no boundaries to define who is in the set and who is out- it is not a "set"- it has no boundaries.

The entire purpose of defining a set is to set apart a section of that which is being described- if there is nothing that distinguishes members of a set from those who are not members- or those who are "in the circle" or NOT "in the circle" the idea that such a set or "circle" exists or doesn't.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Calm

[manol]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Wow, what a significant post. Thanks so much. There is much there to consider. You may not agree with me, but I think we are much more "one" than many non-LDS and LDS Christians would like to acknowledge. That would threaten a whole lot of paradigms!

Thank you.  I was in a hurry when I wrote it, just now went back and added another short paragraph in the middle.

I do agree with you that we are much more "one" than many non-LDS and LDS Christians would like to acknowledge.  Imo it's a different lense, through which some of the otherwise totally illogical sayings of Jesus all of a sudden become logical:

IF we really are one, then suddenly it actually makes sense to love your enemies, to do good to them that curse you, to turn the other cheek, to go the extra mile, to give even more to the one who sues you, to lend without expectation, to forgive without keeping score.  "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" become more than just behavioral advice, they become teachings of who we really are on a deeper level than is outwardly apparent.

And then there's the parable of the King who goes in disguise as the least among us.

Edited January 3, 2023 by manol

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

A female missionary does not hold an office of priesthood, so no.  No female can, even in the temple where we may perform some priesthood ordinances, again without being set apart in a priesthood office (Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder, etc).

Thanks. I didn't think so. In some Mennonite groups females can hold any office in the church. In the more fundamentalist Mennonite world (including Old Order) they usually cannot. Same with the Baptist world.

Your reply to which I am responding resonates with me about the ministerial priesthood in our world because you use the term "office" and specify Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder, etc). Those are reserved for the ministerial priesthood in our world and are differentiated from the descriptors given in the manual you posted under the subject of "Priesthood" where it describes a broad ministry to others and receiving revelation, very similar to our concept of the Royal Priesthood.

Before you posted this last post, I was sitting here thinking - I have a ginormous library of books from the 19th century on about LDS history, doctrine, etc. and I don't think I have a single full-length volume on the Priesthood. I have to check that out. It seems in some ways my LDS friends have it, are sure they are the only ones who have it, have authority because they have it, but aren't real sure how to explain in detail what it is they have!!!! They just know they have it and the rest of us don't! I say that respectfully and simply as an observation from an outsider who asks questions a mile a minute to anyone who offers me the chance! Take care! Just call me Sponge Navidad!

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Was this the post?

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75015-what-can-faithful-non-members-do-in-the-spiritual-life-and-ministry-of-a-ward-or-stake/?do=findComment&comment=1210128972

 

Yep, that is it. Thanks for finding and posting it. I was too busy responding to Mark and you to find the exact post.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, manol said:

Thank you.  I was in a hurry when I wrote it, just now went back and added another short paragraph in the middle.

I do agree with you that we are much more "one" than many non-LDS and LDS Christians would like to acknowledge.  Imo it's a different lense, through which some of the otherwise totally illogical sayings of Jesus all of a sudden become logical:

IF we really are one, then suddenly it makes sense to love your enemies, to do good to them that curse you, to turn the other cheek, to go the extra mile, to give even more to the one who sues you, to lend without expectation, to forgive without keeping score.  "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" become more than just behavioral advice, they become teachings of who we really are on a deeper level.

And then there's the parable of the King who goes in disguise as the least among us.

Right on! Your last sentence reminded me . . .  perhaps you or others here have heard the story about the pastor who fifteen or twenty years ago accepted a call to pastor a new church and dressed up as a homeless man for his first Sunday in the church? It made a lot of secular news broadcast and was popular, especially within the Evangelical world. No one paid any attention to him, except to give him dirty looks as he entered the sanctuary of what is a large and prestigious church with a history of well-known pastors. He took off his makeup from the pulpit (stand) and gave them quite a sermon about ministry.

Well, that pastor was my best friend for many years. He was a little nuts, but could pull off things like that when others could not. I say "was" because he died several years ago from ALS. Terrible loss. He set the stage for change in a very elitist congregation up in Michigan. Some folks believe the story was apocryphal, but it was true. I can't tell you all the stories about him from when he and I traveled all across the country preaching and teaching to congregations of widely different backgrounds. Of course I had no part in any of the stories! No really! Well . . . maybe a tiny part in a few. . . . Well, ok most of them were my idea! Ha!

Edited January 3, 2023 by Navidad

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Navidad said:

They just know they have it and the rest of us don't!

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is also difficult for many members to describe as what is really different.  Since I have always been a member since baptism at 8, I can’t say what the difference in experience is for members who have the Gift and live worthily to receive the constant companionship and nonmembers who constantly seek for the Holy Spirit and live worthily enough to have the Spirit inspire them.

Maybe Mark or someone else who is a convert can relate the difference of their experience…though that is no guarantee that every nonmember or member has the same, though Mark was an atheist iirc prior to conversion so maybe he didn’t think of the Spirit as any sort of companion.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

46 minutes ago, Navidad said:

It never dawned on me that your post had anything to do with logic!

Pretty much everything I post has to do with logic! 😉

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(mathematics)

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is also difficult for many members to describe as what is really different.  Since I have always been a member since baptism at 8, I can’t say what the difference in experience is for members who have the Gift and live worthily to receive the constant companionship and nonmembers who constantly seek for the Holy Spirit and live worthily enough to have the Spirit inspire them.

Maybe Mark or someone else who is a convert can relate the difference of their experience…though that is no guarantee that every nonmember or member has the same,

Quite honestly I have not seen much difference except in names. Except converts often feel an urgency to find MORE; that what they have is insufficient, so they keep looking.

Here are some synonyms 

I won't bother with "quote Marks" but you can if YOU do.

Hunch

Prompting 

Intuition

Idea

Thought

Gut

Feeling

Conscience 

Inkling 

Anybody got a thesaurus handy?

All of these are inadequate but in the ballpark; what none of these include is the intensity and feelings of certainty and the sense that the feeling came from outside your "self".

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by mfbukowski

[manol]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Right on!

Thank you.

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Your last sentence reminded me . . .  perhaps you or others here have heard the story about the pastor who fifteen or twenty years ago accepted a call to pastor a new church and dressed up as a homeless man for his first Sunday in the church? It made a lot of news, especially within the Evangelical world. No one paid any attention to him, except to give him dirty looks as he entered the sanctuary of what is a large and prestigious church with a history of well-known pastors. He took off his makeup from the pulpit (stand) and gave them quite a sermon about ministry.

I'd never heard that story, but that's BRILLIANT!!  I bet no one who was there, or even who hears the story, forgets it or its message.

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Well, that pastor was my best friend for many years. He was a little nuts, but could pull off things like that when others could not. I say "was" because he died several years ago from ALS. Terrible loss. He set the stage for change in a very elitist congregation up in Michigan. Some folks believe the story was apocryphal, but it was true. I can't tell you all the stories about him from when he and I traveled all across the country preaching and teaching to congregations of widely different backgrounds. Of course I had no part in any of the stories! No really! Well . . . maybe a tiny part in a few. . . . Well, ok most of them were my idea! Ha!

If I started a thread asking for stories, do you think you would participate?   If you'd rather not then I understand, but based on what little I know about you from your participation on this site, I'm sure I could learn from your stories. 

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Yep, that is it. Thanks for finding and posting it. I was too busy responding to Mark and you to find the exact post.

No problem.  I need easy stuff to occupy my mind.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, manol said:

I'd never heard that story, but that's BRILLIANT!!  I bet no one who was there, or even who hears the story, forgets it or its message.

I believe a LDS bishop in Salt Lake area did the same a couple of years ago, have to run, will try and find story later.

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

If it is a worthiness issue, they would not be a member in good standing, would they?

The only circumstance I can think of for a member in good standing is if it was obvious they lacked the mental or emotional development to be accountable for their actions.  

Are there any other circumstances you are aware of that have prevented someone…perhaps you are thinking they might not be prepared as they are not familiar enough with the teachings on what priesthood and its duties are?  This could be quickly remedied surely if the young man/man was interested in making the commitment.

Yes, I was thinking along the lines of mental / emotional development for the most part. Say, for example, you have a young adult with Down Syndrome. He may very well be a member in good standing, but it might also be the case that he lacks the requisite mental capacity to fully comprehend the oath and covenant of the priesthood he would be taking upon himself, so his bishop may elect not to recommend any further advancement in the priesthood.

The only other situations I was able to think of off the top of my head were pretty far out there in edge case scenario land. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a (hypothetical) case involving a worthy young man preparing to serve a mission and is seeking to be ordained but who has been accused of some serious crime (e.g., sexual assault). Even if the young man were truly innocent and worthy of being ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, I could see a bishop forestalling his ordination until after the legal proceedings had been settled - especially if the accuser happened to be a member of the same congregation.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Amulek

[Okrahomer]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe a LDS bishop in Salt Lake area did the same a couple of years ago, have to run, will try and find story later.

Is this what you’re thinking of?

The Bishopric in my home ward in Oklahoma also did something similar during a Ward Christmas Party a few years ago. My understanding (from my sister who was the RS President at the time) is that it was immensely moving.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Okrahomer
Spelling

[3DOP]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

Would it be better if folks like me were more like our Catholic folks here who simply have an intellectual interest without desiring spiritual fellowship?

Navidad,

You weren't talking to us and I think you spoke a little hastily. No offense taken. But it seems like you made an unwarranted characterization of the Catholic participation here. I don't know what the other two desire. How can you know what the three of us together desire? It seems to me like the Catholic participants have a genuine interest in the people we interact with here. I think it was unjust of you to have suggested that the Catholics here have no desire for what you call "spiritual fellowship" with our interlocutors here.

Please believe me Navidad. I am okay here. We are okay. You and I are okay. Unless you think you can really read our minds!

Thanks, God Bless,

Rory

      

Edited January 4, 2023 by 3DOP

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/3/2023 at 8:56 AM, pogi said:

Who is my leader in spreading hope over doubt in the restoration?  Who is my leader in promoting faith?  I have and will continue to follow the prophets and the Spirit of the Lord in being anxiously engaged in a good cause.

I am also making general observations on the decline of faith, abandoned faith, and stagnant growth, not only in our church, but in religion in general.  I have seen many emerge stronger from their faith crisis as they choose to place hope above doubt and learn that faith can endure, and can be strengthened by crisis with the right tools that lead to Christ.  

We are all in a dark wilderness one way or another, Bernard.  We have many guides, the prophets, scriptures, the light of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and we are counseled to be a support and lift where we can.   
If you can’t abide my experience and approach to faith expressed in these forums, you are free to leave, but you can’t push me out with your judgment and mocking tones of phony applause, etc.  I am aware of a wave of people like me emerging with a strong online presence.  They are not going anywhere.  I hope you can learn to abide our presence, we are pretty good, active, temple worthy folk, from what I can see, and our faith/experience is an asset to the church.

Wow. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Is this what you’re thinking of?

The Bishopric in my home ward in Oklahoma also did something similar during a Ward Christmas Party a few years ago. My understanding (from my sister who was the RS President at the time) is that it was immensely moving.

That’s the one.
 

Thank you for finding it. I was not looking forward to looking for it. Not in the mood tonight. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

I wonder if there is a connection between this recent debate some of you are having and the subject of this thread?

Indirectly precipitated by the subject.

Is it a decline in the quality of the board to discuss the interpretation of what non-members may or may not do in a ward?

No.

I wonder how many folks here have ever even thought about non-members, non-investigators being active in a ward?

My father was in that situation for many years. 

Is the very idea of non-members desiring to be active representative of a decline in the quality of the discussions or a threat to the church?

No.

Do Mark's comments about the need for boundaries to preserve identity serve to protect?

No comprendo.

Would it be better if folks like me were more like our Catholic folks here who simply have an intellectual interest without desiring spiritual fellowship?

No.

I am trying to figure out if there is a connection between the recent comments and that which is being discussed on eight pages of this thread?

Indirectly. IMO it resulted from the ensuing discussion on authority and Church policies.

I am always trying to make connections between ideas and thoughts! I don't quite understand the value in formidable defense being the foundation for a discussion and dialogue board?

Are you familiar with the board’s history? That’s why it was created.

Doesn't formidable defense or formidable attack lessen dialogue and discussion and invite dogma?

Not necessarily. It depends on the intent and good will of the participants 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, manol said:

If by "One" you mean "our beliefs are in agreement", that's arguably a long shot as long as the Veil is in place because we have different personalities and different life experiences.  However once we have passed beyond the Veil, we will know and so there will be no more differing beliefs.  In other words, any disagreement in beliefs between sincere seekers of God is not only temporary, it is also evidently (and presumably intentionally) built into our mortal experience. 

 

But perhaps "Oneness" is not just about "being in agreement".  Perhaps Oneness is also an underlying truth which is not outwardly apparent, again because of the Veil.

By way of illustration, Finger may say to Opposing Thumb, "you

Quote

 

and I are separate."   Seen at the level of Digits this is true, but at the level of Hand they are connected.

Likewise Branch may say to Other Branch, "you and I are separate", but at the level of Vine, they are connected.

And along similar same lines, Christ might teach "Love your neighbor as yourself", and on one level that means "treat others well", and on a deeper level it means... something deeper, shall we say. 

@mfbukowski, could you check the logic of the following if/then statement, drawn from Section 38?

IF it is true that "if ye are not one ye are not mine" (verse 27) AND "all flesh is mine" (verse 16), THEN "ye are [already] one". 

In other words, maybe we are already One, and maybe the injunctions for us to "become one" are telling us to become aware of something which is already true about one another, even if we do not yet agree in all of our beliefs.

Interesting take on D&C 38:27. I was thinking more of this…

Quote

Moses 7:18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.
19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion.

And,
 

Quote

3 Nephi 11:28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

I have feared that for a couple of decades, long before I was on the board. I finally realized through numerous means like conference and reading 7 Habits of Highly Effective People that a large part of the problem was that people were not taking the time to understand each other, but would either pointedly ignore or put down other views.  

I saw this this last week while visiting my parents.  My dad will not listen to me in some matters.  He goes straight to the idea that I or others are being unfaithful before he has any understanding of what I think or feel. I can't tell you how much this hurts. I don't have any problem thinking differently than he does,  after all, we are very different (but also very similar) people with vastly different experiences.  I would just like it if he would try to understand where I'm coming from.

And that's my frustration with the board and the church and world in general.  Sometimes I think that we are so afraid that understanding will change us that we refuse to listen to the other side who we have already defined as wrong.

Thank you. I agree. Some people may feel that way. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

For those posters who believe that the lack of people seeing things their way means the board has devolved, there is room for pity I guess.  I can see why that would be a very uncomfortable change for some.

 

For those posters who believe that more people seeing things their way means the board is improving, there is room for congratulations I guess. I can see why that would seem a comfortable change for some.

Not all change is good.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

That is the post and those that followed with thoughts from others. I didn't say you implied it had anything to do with protection. you called it a "set." I added the thought later on that the concept of a circle or set so as to identify a group, might indeed also serve a protective function for the group - a boundary that keeps members in and non-members out. That ensures the integrity, purity, and sustaining of the group over time. All of those were my musings about the idea of boundaries and a set or lines drawn around the circle. It never dawned on me that your post had anything to do with logic! Ha! That was a broma! a joke! 😀

This has nothing to do with any threads; I just thought you might be interested in a journal with which you may not be aware AND an article which may be interesting for you.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/nibley-lectures-time-vindicates-the-prophets-what-makes-a-true-church/

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, pogi said:

Who is my leader in spreading hope over doubt in the restoration?  Who is my leader in promoting faith?  I have and will continue to follow the prophets and the Spirit of the Lord in being anxiously engaged in a good cause.

I am also making general observations on the decline of faith, abandoned faith, and stagnant growth, not only in our church, but in religion in general.  I have seen many emerge stronger from their faith crisis as they choose to place hope above doubt and learn that faith can endure, and can be strengthened by crisis with the right tools that lead to Christ.  

We are all in a dark wilderness one way or another, Bernard.  We have many guides, the prophets, scriptures, the light of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and we are counseled to be a support and lift where we can.   
If you can’t abide my experience and approach to faith expressed in these forums, you are free to leave [???], but you can’t push me out with your judgment and mocking tones of phony applause, etc.  I am aware of a wave of people like me emerging with a strong online presence.  They are not going anywhere.  I hope you can learn to abide our presence, we are pretty good, active, temple worthy folk, from what I can see, and our faith/experience is an asset to the church.

You brought up this LDS New Wave movement. Who are these New Wave warriors? Are General Authorities in their ranks?

Quote

I see a new wave of Mormonism that is stepping up and will save the faith from the more traditionalist/fundamentalist old-school apologetic approach that defends EVERY SINGLE word of EVERY prophet and tries to reconcile old teachings with modern policies/teachings.  I see an approach of faithful, fully engaged, fully active, fully believing members who don't need to defend everything.  Members are becoming disillusioned to the more traditional approach, and I am trying to create a bed for them (and myself) to fall back on that remains faithful.  One that steps back from surety and steps into faith, which requires uncertainty…. 

 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

For those posters who believe that more people seeing things their way means the board is improving, there is room for congratulations I guess. I can see why that would seem a comfortable change for some.

Not all change is good.

I personally don’t see the board as improving or devolving. It has changed over the years. Some of that is simply because the make up of posters has changed. Some of it is because the church itself has changed and many members have changed with it.

Change is not good or bad in and of itself. Some people are fine with the changes. Others don’t like them that much. Those feelings also aren’t right or wrong in and of themselves. They are just the realities of different people’s personalities.

It’s the “I don’t like the changes the board has gone through and therefore the changes are wrong” crowd that seem a bit self righteous to me.

As if they are the standard for what the board (and the members who post here) should be and believe.

Edited January 4, 2023 by bluebell

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Navidad said:

Do Mark's comments about the need for boundaries to preserve identity serve to protect?

Cfr

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are General Authorities in their ranks?

How about our dear prophet?

Changes in home teaching. Changes in the temple. Changes in home scripture study. Changes in how the church identifies itself with Jesus Christ. Links with the NAACP.  Support for Respect for Gay Marriage Act.  Shorter meetings.

Still more temples being built in a time of decline.  Somebody's gotta know something about the future, and it's not a GA acting alone.

And biggest of all, caffeinated soda at BYU.  AND in temple vending machines and cafeterias!!!

This has not all been created by ruffians like Pogi.  🤔

Edited January 4, 2023 by mfbukowski