Horns of a dilemma, moral obligation?

[MustardSeed]

I moved recently 

[RAD DAD]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:19 AM, Calm said:

Why would masturbation prevent someone from being called

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

Well, you believe it? That's probably where we get all the crappy stuff from leaders of the church saying if you are going to be raped you better fight like hell to stop it even if it means you die in the process! Lame..

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

From the context of those chapters, it seems clear that he's speaking of sexual intercourse outside of marriage.  Not every sexual sin.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

Quote please and point out exactly where he said any type of sexual sin is more serious etc.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

From the context of those chapters, it seems clear that he's speaking of sexual intercourse outside of marriage.  Not every sexual sin.  

And quite possibly he is talking of sinning in such a way that it became a hinderance to missionary work…which forsaking his ministry, leaving his mission to go have sex with a ritual prostitute (the name Isabel/Jezebel is suggestive) of another religion likely would (since not only was he abandoning his own mission, he was participating in another faith’s rituals).

Edited January 14, 2023 by Calm

[bsjkki]

3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

Did he? Any sexual sin? Masturbation? Ridiculous. I’ve read quite a few people who have analyzed those versus and come to the conclusion @Calmdiscusses. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by bsjkki

[Calm]

Quote

If Corianton’s only sin was committing sexually immoral acts, then it’s curious why Alma did not focus on that in the rest of the chapter. Instead of warning against sexual immorality, the remainder of Alma 39focuses on such topics as “a description of the unpardonable sin—to knowingly deny the Holy Ghost.”6

Apostasy is a sin of unfaithfulness that was seen in some ways by Old Testament prophets as conceptually similar to adultery.7 Alma associated the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost with leading others into apostasy. This he did by explaining that ‘whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness’ (Alma 39:6). “Denying the Holy Ghost is unforgivable,” Alma’s logic goes, “but those who murder ‘against the light and knowledge of God’ can receive forgiveness, albeit with great difficulty.8

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-was-coriantons-sin-so-serious

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-was-coriantons-sin-so-serious

Nice article. I like how it points out he did repent and return to the ministry. So many times, that part of the story is left out. Sometimes, I think throwing every sexual sin into the ‘sin next to murder’ in importance without qualifiers, does not lead to repentance but rather leads people to feeling hopeless and irredeemable. It’s ridiculous to compare masturbation and rape as equitable sins.  When discussing these things, you have to think like a 12 year old boy or girl and think about the message they are hearing and internalizing. 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

people to feeling hopeless and irredeemable…

you have to think like a 12 year old boy or girl and think about the message they are hearing and internalizing.

Amen.  We need to be careful to actually pay attention to what scripture says about sin, but also be realistic and use our brains and our own connection with the Spirit and place individual scripture in the greater context of the gospel (we would all be burning in hell forever with some interpretations I have heard of these verses).

Edited January 14, 2023 by Calm

[John L]

19 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Did he? Any sexual sin? Masturbation? Ridiculous. I’ve read quite a few people who have analyzed those versus and come to the conclusion @Calmdiscusses

"Virtue may be lost by degrees; and chastity may be destroyed a step at a time. Immodesty, necking, and petting, themselves a form of sex immorality, frequently lead to much grosser offenses. Every degree and type of lewdness, lasciviousness, and licentiousness; of concupiscence, prostitution, and whoredoms; of sodomy, onanism, and homosexuality; of MASTURBATION, incontinence, and perversion; of rape, seduction, and infidelity; of adultery, fornication, and uncleanness—all these things, as well as many others, are condemned by divine edict and are among Lucifer's chief means of leading souls to HELL. Fine distinctions between them are of no particular moment and are not necessary to observance of the divine laws involved. Counsel in the field of chastity is simply: Be Chaste!"

 

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.708 SEX IMMORALITY

 

 

Are you trying to pretend as if masturbation isn't considered a serious sexual sin in the LDS faith? I know of two young men who were sent home early from their mission because they couldn't stop masturbating. Growing up in the church, I was taught masturbation was used by Satan to make me sin.

[John L]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Quote please and point out exactly where he said any type of sexual sin is more serious etc

 

[John L]

6 minutes ago, John L said:

 

 

This is what I found, Calm. Maybe this is what RAD DAD was referring to. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by John L

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, John L said:

This is what I found, Calm. Maybe this is what RAD DAD was referring to. 

As long as we are quoting, pull out that dusty text by president Kimball.  You know the one, that turned many young people into liars and the one that most young people today have thankfully never heard of.  
 

We no longer teach those things.  We no longer tell young women that being a participant in sexual sin is like chewed gum. We have evolved - 

Telling young people that touching themselves is next to MURDER has had devastating outcomes on marriages imo.    Women who have zero idea about their own anatomy because of pulpit pounding and avoidance of their own sexuality don’t need to be told that awareness of themselves is going to have them next to psychopaths on judgement day. 
 

Of course compulsive masterbation is a problem.  So is overeating.  And obsessive hand washing.  And too much celery.  Too much of anything is gluttonous and blocks healthy connections. 
 

IMO

[John L]

40 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

We no longer teach those things

We know longer teach masturbation is a sin? 

 

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Telling young people that touching themselves is next to MURDER has had devastating outcomes on marriages imo

I agree

42 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 So is overeating

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

 

43 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And obsessive hand washing

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

43 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And too much celery.  

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission. 

44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Of course compulsive masterbation is a problem.

Will get you sent home from a mission. Why? Because it's considered a sexual sin Satan uses to influence missionaries while they're on a mission. Don't know how it is for women, but in the church, masturbation is used to control young men. 

[MustardSeed]

14 minutes ago, John L said:

in the church, masturbation is used to control young men. 

Imo that is a bigger sin. 
 

15 minutes ago, John L said:

We know longer teach masturbation is a sin? 

Not like we used to. in our program we don’t even discuss it. 

 

15 minutes ago, John L said:

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

Neither should masterbating.  But if the action is not discreet enough it certainly could be argued that it could interrupt the wellness of companions, so a flight home would be in order.  Don’t ask don’t tell, if someone masterbates once or occasionally I don’t need to know. 

 

18 minutes ago, John L said:

Because it's considered a sexual sin Satan uses to influence missionaries while they're on a mission.

I’ve never been a missionary but if someone is engaged 24/7 in church stuff I imagine that obsessions about sex would be uncommon?  Thus compulsive M might be unlikely.  I imagine if someone is M a lot on their mission they might also be doing other things that are problematic- staying in contact with girlfriends, fantasizing or interacting too much with local girls, or viewing inappropriate content.  We don’t always know why people get sent home. 
 

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Imo that is a bigger sin. 
 

Not like we used to. in our program we don’t even discuss it. 

 

Neither should masterbating.  But if the action is not discreet enough it certainly could be argued that it could interrupt the wellness of companions, so a flight home would be in order.  Don’t ask don’t tell, if someone masterbates once or occasionally I don’t need to know. 

 

I’ve never been a missionary but if someone is engaged 24/7 in church stuff I imagine that obsessions about sex would be uncommon?  Thus compulsive M might be unlikely.  I imagine if someone is M a lot on their mission they might also be doing other things that are problematic- staying in contact with girlfriends, fantasizing or interacting too much with local girls, or viewing inappropriate content.  We don’t always know why people get sent home. 
 

 

It's interesting and significant that the new For the Strength of Youth pamphlet that the church just put out (the one that Elder Uchtdorf spoke on in October's general conference) does not even mention masturbation that I can find.  It says--

Quote

Sexual feelings are an important part of God’s plan to create happy marriages and eternal families. These feelings are not sinful—they are sacred. Because sexual feelings are so sacred and so powerful, God has given you His law of chastity to prepare you to use these feelings as He intends. The law of chastity states that God approves of sexual activity only between a man and a woman who are married. Many in the world ignore or even mock God’s law, but the Lord invites us to be His disciples and live a standard higher than the world’s.

And--

Quote

Keep sex and sexual feelings sacred. They should not be the subject of jokes or entertainment. Outside of marriage between a man and a woman, it is wrong to touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body even if clothed. In your choices about what you do, look at, read, listen to, think about, post, or text, avoid anything that purposely arouses lustful emotions in others or yourself. This includes pornography in any form. If you find that situations or activities make temptations stronger, avoid them. You know what those situations and activities are. And if you aren’t sure, the Spirit, your parents, and your leaders can help you know. Show your Father in Heaven that you honor and respect the sacred power to create life.

And--

Quote

Living the law of chastity brings God’s approval and personal spiritual power. When you are married, this law will bring greater love, trust, and unity to your marriage. Obeying this law will make it possible for you to progress eternally and become more like your Heavenly Father. Your confidence will grow as you live as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

And finally--

Quote

How can I overcome temptations and bad habits? Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have the power to help you. Fill your life with things that invite that power into your life, such as prayer, scripture study, and service to others. Turn to Jesus Christ and His gospel and you will find that weaknesses can become strengths. Seek help from parents, leaders, and professional counselors as needed. For those who suffer from addiction, the Church offers an addiction recovery program. These are blessings the Savior’s Church provides to help you regain control of your life. It will take time, so be patient, and never give up.

As far as I can find, masturbation isn't even alluded to.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, John L said:

"Virtue may be lost by degrees; and chastity may be destroyed a step at a time. Immodesty, necking, and petting, themselves a form of sex immorality, frequently lead to much grosser offenses. Every degree and type of lewdness, lasciviousness, and licentiousness; of concupiscence, prostitution, and whoredoms; of sodomy, onanism, and homosexuality; of MASTURBATION, incontinence, and perversion; of rape, seduction, and infidelity; of adultery, fornication, and uncleanness—all these things, as well as many others, are condemned by divine edict and are among Lucifer's chief means of leading souls to HELL. Fine distinctions between them are of no particular moment and are not necessary to observance of the divine laws involved. Counsel in the field of chastity is simply: Be Chaste!"

 

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.708 SEX IMMORALITY

 

 

Are you trying to pretend as if masturbation isn't considered a serious sexual sin in the LDS faith? I know of two young men who were sent home early from their mission because they couldn't stop masturbating. Growing up in the church, I was taught masturbation was used by Satan to make me sin.

Mormon Doctrine is not a church publication and no members are held to it's claims.  It was useful in some ways but it is basically a book of McConkie's opinions on church doctrine.  Some opinions are supported by actual church doctrine, but many are not. 

Below is a quick description of how Church leaders received it when it was first published and the different editions that came later--

Quote

 

Church leaders were surprised by its publication since he had not asked permission and was not asked to develop such a work. They responded that while they applauded the attempt of the book to fill a need, it used a harsh tone. Apostle Mark E. Petersen said it was "full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation."[5]

On January 5, 1959, apostle Marion G. Romney was assigned by church president David O. McKay to read and report on the book. His report was delivered on January 28, which mainly "dealt with Elder McConkie's usage of forceful, blunt language; some strongly worded statements about ambiguous doctrine and matters of opinion; and the overall authoritative tone throughout the book, though in general Romney had a high regard for Mormon Doctrine and felt it filled an evident need remarkably well."[4] The report concluded that "notwithstanding its many commendable and valuable features and the author's assumption of 'sole and full responsibility' for it, its nature and scope and the authoritative tone of the style in which it is written pose the question as to the propriety of the author's attempting such a project without assignment and supervision from him whose right and responsibility it is to speak for the church on 'Mormon Doctrine.'"

Petersen "gave McKay an oral report in which he recommended 1,067 corrections" to the book.[2]

Nearly a year later, after meeting to discuss the book, the January 8, 1960 office notes of McKay reflect:

"We [the First Presidency of the church] decided that Bruce R. McConkie’s book, 'Mormon Doctrine' recently published by Bookcraft Company, must not be re-published, as it is full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation. It is reported to us that Brother McConkie has made corrections to his book, and is now preparing another edition. We decided this morning that we do not want him to publish another edition."[5]

McKay called Joseph Fielding Smith on January 27, 1960, to inform him of the decision to ban further publication of the book:

[McKay] then said: 'Now, Brother Smith, he is a General Authority, and we do not want to give him a public rebuke that would be embarrassing to him and lessen his influence with the members of the Church, so we shall speak to the Twelve at our meeting in the temple tomorrow, and tell them that Brother McConkie's book is not approved as an authoritative book, and that it should not be republished, even if the errors... are corrected.' Brother Smith agreed with this suggestion to report to the Twelve, and said, 'That is the best thing to do.'[4]

When the First Presidency met with McConkie about their decision, he responded, "I am amenable to whatever you Brethren want. I will do exactly what you want. I will be as discreet and as wise as I can."[4]

In his biography of his father, Joseph Fielding McConkie states:

"On July 5, 1966, President McKay invited Elder McConkie into his office and gave approval for the book to be reprinted if appropriate changes were made and approved. Elder Spencer W. Kimball [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] was assigned to be Elder McConkie's mentor in making those changes .... My father told me that President McKay had so directed him. In addition to that, I am in possession of handwritten papers by my father affirming that direction."[6]

Other accounts of the meeting suggest that McConkie sought out permission and generously interpreted McKay's counsel:

McConkie audaciously approached McKay six years later and pushed for publication of the book in a revised form .… McKay, age ninety-two and in failing health, did not take the matter up with his counselors or the Quorum of the Twelve. Rather, he said that 'should the book be re-published at this time,' McConkie would be responsible for it and 'that it will not be a Church publication.'[2]

Three days after meeting with McKay, McConkie wrote in a memo to Clare Middlemiss, McKay's secretary, "President McKay indicated that the book should be republished at this time."[2]

Another account was given in an audio interview of Oscar W. McConkie Jr. on June 26, 2017:

When I determined to retire from Kirton and McConkie, I was in my 85th year. I went to the First Presidency meeting to advise the First Presidency. As always, President Monson was kind to me and praised my lawyering. This was at a time when a book had been published about President David O. McKay in which it was falsely stated that Bruce had republished his book Mormon Doctrine without President McKay’s consent. President Monson went out of his way to say, so that it would be in the recorded minutes of the First Presidency, "Bruce and I got President McKay’s permission to republish Bruce’s Mormon Doctrine."[7]

Changes between the first and second editions

The second edition of Mormon Doctrine, with its approved revisions, was published in 1966. Horne states, "The most obvious difference between the two editions is a more moderate tone."[4] Many entries were removed, while others were added, and entire paragraphs were changed in other entries. Complete removals included entire entries which specifically labeled the Roman Catholic church as the Church of the Devil and the great and abominable church, including the sections titled "Catholicism" and "Roman Catholicism".[8][9]: 19, 119  Other removed sections were critical of aspects unique to Catholicism including the sections "Indulgences", "Supererogation", and "Transubstantiation".[9]: 55, 120, 125–127 

Other notable changes in the second edition also include the removal of sentences stating that

• "Suicide is murder, pure and simple, and murderers are damned",[9]: 119 
• "No doubt psychiatry ... has some benefit ... but in many instances, it is in effect a form of apostate religion which keeps sinners from repenting....",[9]: 103  and
• that all those using condoms or other artificial contraception are "in rebellion against God and are guilty of gross wickedness."[9]: 12 
• Additionally removed were references to evolution, including
• one stating that the "official doctrine of the Church" asserted a "falsity of the theory of organic evolution",[9]: 34  along with sentences stating
• that "There were no pre-Adamites",
• that Adam was not the "end-product of evolution", and
• that there "was no death in the world, either for man or for any form of life until after the Fall of Adam."[9]: 37 

In later printings of the second edition, changes were made to doctrinal statements regarding black people in the pre-mortal life. The 1969 printing retained the controversial statements, but printings of the second edition by 1978 reflected the new church policy.

A third edition of the book was published in 1978 after church president Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation that the priesthood should be extended to all worthy male members.[citation needed] The changes were also included in the last printings of the second edition.

In the 1966 edition of Mormon Doctrine, McConkie wrote that those who were sent to Earth through the lineage of Cain were those who had been less valiant in the premortal life. He also said that because Ham married Egyptus and because she was a descendant of Cain, that he was able to preserve the "negro lineage." The denial of the priesthood to certain men was then mentioned and he explained that in this life, black people would not hold the priesthood, but that those blessings would be available to them in the next life.[10] In 1881, church president John Taylor expounded on the belief that the curse placed on Ham (who was of the lineage of Cain), was continued because Ham's wife was also of that "seed."[11]" In 1978, McConkie said the curse of Cain was no longer in effect.[12]: 117  McConkie's theology[13] concerning people of African descent and the Mormon priesthood was removed from the third edition.

 From what I understand, the church removed all references or quotes from Mormon Doctrine from the Gospel Principles manual in 2009 and then Deseret Book stopped printing the book completely in 2010.  DB claimed that it was discontinued do to low book sales but that was quickly shown to not be factual.

No one should use Mormon Doctrine as a standard for what the church believes or how members should behave.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, John L said:

We know longer teach masturbation is a sin? 

 

I agree

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

 

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission. 

Will get you sent home from a mission. Why? Because it's considered a sexual sin Satan uses to influence missionaries while they're on a mission. Don't know how it is for women, but in the church, masturbation is used to control young men. 

Too bad that kind of control is doing more harm than good. And maybe causing the inability to stop, makes it happen more. Just like porn use and telling them not to, the feelings of being rotten to the core for doing it and then giving up. Blowing up all of these things so that a person can't live with themselves they feel so lost. The church or any church that controls to this extent, are the problem.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Too bad that kind of control is doing more harm than good. And maybe causing the inability to stop, makes it happen more. Just like porn use and telling them not to, the feelings of being rotten to the core for doing it and then giving up. Blowing up all of these things so that a person can't live with themselves they feel so lost. The church or any church that controls to this extent, are the problem.

Rep pt

[Calm]

8 hours ago, John L said:

This is what I found, Calm. Maybe this is what RAD DAD was referring to. 

I was referring to quoting from scripture, not interpretations of scripture, that may or may not be doctrinal.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Calm

[Orthodox Christian]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:07 PM, Tacenda said:

And for Duncan's sake, I wonder if this person would go after him for breaking up a marriage or something like that.

It's very tricky. Does he know this person, has he had dealings with him/or words that could be turned back on him, eg, could he be accused of repaying an unproven situation because he doesn't like/ get on with the accused.