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Horns of a dilemma, moral obligation?


Duncan

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2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

Well, you believe it? That's probably where we get all the crappy stuff from leaders of the church saying if you are going to be raped you better fight like hell to stop it even if it means you die in the process! Lame..

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3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

From the context of those chapters, it seems clear that he's speaking of sexual intercourse outside of marriage.  Not every sexual sin.  

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3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

Quote please and point out exactly where he said any type of sexual sin is more serious etc.

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3 hours ago, bluebell said:

From the context of those chapters, it seems clear that he's speaking of sexual intercourse outside of marriage.  Not every sexual sin.  

And quite possibly he is talking of sinning in such a way that it became a hinderance to missionary work…which forsaking his ministry, leaving his mission to go have sex with a ritual prostitute (the name Isabel/Jezebel is suggestive) of another religion likely would (since not only was he abandoning his own mission, he was participating in another faith’s rituals).

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The prophet Alma taught sexual sin is more serious than any other sin except for murder and denying the Holy Ghost? 

Did he? Any sexual sin? Masturbation? Ridiculous. I’ve read quite a few people who have analyzed those versus and come to the conclusion @Calmdiscusses. 

Edited by bsjkki
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Quote

If Corianton’s only sin was committing sexually immoral acts, then it’s curious why Alma did not focus on that in the rest of the chapter. Instead of warning against sexual immorality, the remainder of Alma 39focuses on such topics as “a description of the unpardonable sin—to knowingly deny the Holy Ghost.”6

Apostasy is a sin of unfaithfulness that was seen in some ways by Old Testament prophets as conceptually similar to adultery.7 Alma associated the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost with leading others into apostasy. This he did by explaining that ‘whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness’ (Alma 39:6). “Denying the Holy Ghost is unforgivable,” Alma’s logic goes, “but those who murder ‘against the light and knowledge of God’ can receive forgiveness, albeit with great difficulty.8

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-was-coriantons-sin-so-serious

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Nice article. I like how it points out he did repent and return to the ministry. So many times, that part of the story is left out. Sometimes, I think throwing every sexual sin into the ‘sin next to murder’ in importance without qualifiers, does not lead to repentance but rather leads people to feeling hopeless and irredeemable. It’s ridiculous to compare masturbation and rape as equitable sins.  When discussing these things, you have to think like a 12 year old boy or girl and think about the message they are hearing and internalizing. 

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44 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

people to feeling hopeless and irredeemable…

you have to think like a 12 year old boy or girl and think about the message they are hearing and internalizing.

Amen.  We need to be careful to actually pay attention to what scripture says about sin, but also be realistic and use our brains and our own connection with the Spirit and place individual scripture in the greater context of the gospel (we would all be burning in hell forever with some interpretations I have heard of these verses).

Edited by Calm
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19 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Did he? Any sexual sin? Masturbation? Ridiculous. I’ve read quite a few people who have analyzed those versus and come to the conclusion @Calmdiscusses

"Virtue may be lost by degrees; and chastity may be destroyed a step at a time. Immodesty, necking, and petting, themselves a form of sex immorality, frequently lead to much grosser offenses. Every degree and type of lewdness, lasciviousness, and licentiousness; of concupiscence, prostitution, and whoredoms; of sodomy, onanism, and homosexuality; of MASTURBATION, incontinence, and perversion; of rape, seduction, and infidelity; of adultery, fornication, and uncleanness—all these things, as well as many others, are condemned by divine edict and are among Lucifer's chief means of leading souls to HELL. Fine distinctions between them are of no particular moment and are not necessary to observance of the divine laws involved. Counsel in the field of chastity is simply: Be Chaste!"

 

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.708 SEX IMMORALITY

 

 

Are you trying to pretend as if masturbation isn't considered a serious sexual sin in the LDS faith? I know of two young men who were sent home early from their mission because they couldn't stop masturbating. Growing up in the church, I was taught masturbation was used by Satan to make me sin.

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1 hour ago, John L said:

This is what I found, Calm. Maybe this is what RAD DAD was referring to. 

As long as we are quoting, pull out that dusty text by president Kimball.  You know the one, that turned many young people into liars and the one that most young people today have thankfully never heard of.  
 

We no longer teach those things.  We no longer tell young women that being a participant in sexual sin is like chewed gum. We have evolved - 

Telling young people that touching themselves is next to MURDER has had devastating outcomes on marriages imo.    Women who have zero idea about their own anatomy because of pulpit pounding and avoidance of their own sexuality don’t need to be told that awareness of themselves is going to have them next to psychopaths on judgement day. 
 

Of course compulsive masterbation is a problem.  So is overeating.  And obsessive hand washing.  And too much celery.  Too much of anything is gluttonous and blocks healthy connections. 
 

IMO

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40 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

We no longer teach those things

We know longer teach masturbation is a sin? 

 

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Telling young people that touching themselves is next to MURDER has had devastating outcomes on marriages imo

I agree

42 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 So is overeating

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

 

43 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And obsessive hand washing

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

43 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And too much celery.  

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission. 

44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Of course compulsive masterbation is a problem.

Will get you sent home from a mission. Why? Because it's considered a sexual sin Satan uses to influence missionaries while they're on a mission. Don't know how it is for women, but in the church, masturbation is used to control young men. 

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14 minutes ago, John L said:

in the church, masturbation is used to control young men. 

Imo that is a bigger sin. 
 

15 minutes ago, John L said:

We know longer teach masturbation is a sin? 

Not like we used to. in our program we don’t even discuss it. 

 

15 minutes ago, John L said:

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

Neither should masterbating.  But if the action is not discreet enough it certainly could be argued that it could interrupt the wellness of companions, so a flight home would be in order.  Don’t ask don’t tell, if someone masterbates once or occasionally I don’t need to know. 

 

18 minutes ago, John L said:

Because it's considered a sexual sin Satan uses to influence missionaries while they're on a mission.

I’ve never been a missionary but if someone is engaged 24/7 in church stuff I imagine that obsessions about sex would be uncommon?  Thus compulsive M might be unlikely.  I imagine if someone is M a lot on their mission they might also be doing other things that are problematic- staying in contact with girlfriends, fantasizing or interacting too much with local girls, or viewing inappropriate content.  We don’t always know why people get sent home. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Imo that is a bigger sin. 
 

Not like we used to. in our program we don’t even discuss it. 

 

Neither should masterbating.  But if the action is not discreet enough it certainly could be argued that it could interrupt the wellness of companions, so a flight home would be in order.  Don’t ask don’t tell, if someone masterbates once or occasionally I don’t need to know. 

 

I’ve never been a missionary but if someone is engaged 24/7 in church stuff I imagine that obsessions about sex would be uncommon?  Thus compulsive M might be unlikely.  I imagine if someone is M a lot on their mission they might also be doing other things that are problematic- staying in contact with girlfriends, fantasizing or interacting too much with local girls, or viewing inappropriate content.  We don’t always know why people get sent home. 
 

 

It's interesting and significant that the new For the Strength of Youth pamphlet that the church just put out (the one that Elder Uchtdorf spoke on in October's general conference) does not even mention masturbation that I can find.  It says--

Quote

Sexual feelings are an important part of God’s plan to create happy marriages and eternal families. These feelings are not sinful—they are sacred. Because sexual feelings are so sacred and so powerful, God has given you His law of chastity to prepare you to use these feelings as He intends. The law of chastity states that God approves of sexual activity only between a man and a woman who are married. Many in the world ignore or even mock God’s law, but the Lord invites us to be His disciples and live a standard higher than the world’s.

And--

Quote

Keep sex and sexual feelings sacred. They should not be the subject of jokes or entertainment. Outside of marriage between a man and a woman, it is wrong to touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body even if clothed. In your choices about what you do, look at, read, listen to, think about, post, or text, avoid anything that purposely arouses lustful emotions in others or yourself. This includes pornography in any form. If you find that situations or activities make temptations stronger, avoid them. You know what those situations and activities are. And if you aren’t sure, the Spirit, your parents, and your leaders can help you know. Show your Father in Heaven that you honor and respect the sacred power to create life.

And--

Quote

Living the law of chastity brings God’s approval and personal spiritual power. When you are married, this law will bring greater love, trust, and unity to your marriage. Obeying this law will make it possible for you to progress eternally and become more like your Heavenly Father. Your confidence will grow as you live as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

And finally--

Quote

How can I overcome temptations and bad habits? Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have the power to help you. Fill your life with things that invite that power into your life, such as prayer, scripture study, and service to others. Turn to Jesus Christ and His gospel and you will find that weaknesses can become strengths. Seek help from parents, leaders, and professional counselors as needed. For those who suffer from addiction, the Church offers an addiction recovery program. These are blessings the Savior’s Church provides to help you regain control of your life. It will take time, so be patient, and never give up.

As far as I can find, masturbation isn't even alluded to.

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2 hours ago, John L said:

We know longer teach masturbation is a sin? 

 

I agree

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

 

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission.

Usually doesn't get you sent home from your mission. 

Will get you sent home from a mission. Why? Because it's considered a sexual sin Satan uses to influence missionaries while they're on a mission. Don't know how it is for women, but in the church, masturbation is used to control young men. 

Too bad that kind of control is doing more harm than good. And maybe causing the inability to stop, makes it happen more. Just like porn use and telling them not to, the feelings of being rotten to the core for doing it and then giving up. Blowing up all of these things so that a person can't live with themselves they feel so lost. The church or any church that controls to this extent, are the problem.

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Too bad that kind of control is doing more harm than good. And maybe causing the inability to stop, makes it happen more. Just like porn use and telling them not to, the feelings of being rotten to the core for doing it and then giving up. Blowing up all of these things so that a person can't live with themselves they feel so lost. The church or any church that controls to this extent, are the problem.

Rep pt

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8 hours ago, John L said:

This is what I found, Calm. Maybe this is what RAD DAD was referring to. 

I was referring to quoting from scripture, not interpretations of scripture, that may or may not be doctrinal.

Edited by Calm
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/27/2022 at 9:07 PM, Tacenda said:

And for Duncan's sake, I wonder if this person would go after him for breaking up a marriage or something like that.

It's very tricky. Does he know this person, has he had dealings with him/or words that could be turned back on him, eg, could he be accused of repaying an unproven situation because he doesn't like/ get on with the accused.

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