Horns of a dilemma, moral obligation?

[RAD DAD]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

That seems a pretty cynical view of the members or perhaps you have an idea that almost any kind of sin disqualifies someone for a calling and only ignorance of these sins keeps the church staffed

As we read the scriptures quoted or referred to above, we observe that they list virtually all the modern transgressions, though sometimes under ancient names. Let us review the lengthy list:

 

Murder, adultery, theft, cursing, unholiness in masters, disobedience in servants, unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, disobedience to husbands, lack of natural affection, high-mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double-tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant-breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appetite, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block; and in our modern language, masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices.

 

Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 25

 

Sorry to butt in, I understand this post isn't for me, l I thought a small list of what the brethren consider "sins" could help the conversation.

 

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you think minor sins will block a calling?

What's a minor sin?

 

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

If not, what kind of sins do you believe most members are committing such that they wouldn’t be called to any position if known and why do you believe most members are committing these serious sins

What percentage of LDS men masturbate? Are you under the impression LDS men masturbate less than non LDS men?

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

Bishops have access to the gift of discernment. Doesn’t mean they always make use of it

Convenient 

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

 From what I have heard, sometimes they think they know enough already, other times they are distracted

Are you an apologist for the church?

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

What percentage of LDS men masturbate? Are you under the impression LDS men masturbate less than non LDS men?

I don’t go around asking men how often they masturbate, so I don’t have an opinion on this one way or another.

Why would masturbation prevent someone from being called?

Quote

Are you an apologist for the church?

Why are you asking?  Define what you mean by apologist so I can tell if I am or am not by your POV.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

I keep returning to this topic, obviously it interests me.  I think what interests me is that I seem to be a minority thinker here, and that I align myself with those who are expressing their concerns here in a way that makes me question my point of view.  So interesting! 
 

I think my position (don’t get involved) comes from my profession.  There are areas where I might get involved, areas where I definitely would get involved, none of which were in the scope of Duncan’s orignal question.  
 

Sexual abuse or someone’s physical safety is compromised? I’m telling.  I’m a mandated reporter anyway.  Anyang else?  I’m so bound to confidentiality that it’s a way of life for me .  In addition, when people reach out to me to “shed light”, it has always felt like a boundary crossing and I always have to tell my person that someone has told me something.  It never actually helps.  It only causes more problems, because there is point of view, bias, agenda, and limits to truth and information that the informer is restricted by.  
 

Without more info (which I’m curious about but not asking for) it’s really hard for me to get on board with approaching a leader (or anyone frankly) about someone’s behavior short of someone being in harms way.  *That said, a part of me thinks, I’ve always liked Duncan and I trust if he were to share the details I’d likely say “of course!  That makes sense now.” Honestly it’s also hard to understand the leader reporting back.  
 

Hold up,  I just had a thought, what if I found out the primary president was stripping at Pole Position on Fridays and Saturdays? Would I feel compelled to report that? She’s not putting anyone in physical danger nor is anyone involved non consenting.  Hmmm .  I would not,  but I can see how someone would and I would be less likely to disagree with the reporting. 
 

(it’s interesting this process I just experienced here.) 

Edited January 12, 2023 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

I believe most men have.  No CFR.  In my opinion it’s one of those things I hope everyone has done and hasn’t developed a compulsion or maladaptive habit around it,  but I don’t want to know about it.  And I assume every calling in the world comes with people who have and do sin and need to repent on the daily. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by MustardSeed

[John L]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sexual abuse or someone’s physical safety is compromised? I’m telling

Of course. I would too. I would tell the police first, then the bishop. 

 

36 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Honestly it’s also hard to understand the leader reporting back.  

So true! I don't understand why the leader is involving Duncan at all. It was none of his business after he reported. 

 

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

what if I found out the primary president was stripping at Pole Position on Fridays and Saturdays? Would I feel compelled to report that? She’s not putting anyone in physical danger nor is anyone involved non consenting.  Hmmm .  I would not,

Scientology doctrine has what is called "knowledge reports" which is a fancy smancy way for scientologist to report "sins" they know other members to be committing. They write a report of the alleged sin, turn it in, the higher ups call the sinner in and deal with it. Same thing Duncan just did! 

 

39 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I believe most men have

Most? 

 

40 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And I assume every calling in the world comes with people who have and do sin

And that's just it, isn't it. Everyone is a sinner, every Bishop, every Stake President. 

[John L]

7 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

What's a minor sin

Good question. 

[bsjkki]

I refused to sustain a new nursery leader when he was called a week after I found out he was cheating on his wife. I think we did give the Bishop a heads up. He was all around a very unstable person, liar and drug abuser. But like most liars, could put on a good show in public. I think sometimes Bishops can get conned just like all of us. I think it is a fine line where the 'duty to report' is on one hand and when the 'mind your own business' line is on the other. If not for the calling, I would have minded my own business but this person, should not have been around children. I will not knowingly sustain a person who is not worthy to be sustained. 

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, John L said:

And that's just it, isn't it. Everyone is a sinner, every Bishop, every Stake President. 

And GA etc.  Of course. 
 

As for “most”, I try to avoid absolutes especially on this site.  The argument awaits.  Who can argue with most? 😇

 

[John L]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

cheating on his wife

 

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

should not have been around children

Would you mind explaining why a man who cheats on his wife shouldn't be around children?

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I refused to sustain a new nursery leader when he was called a week after I found out he was cheating on his wife. I think we did give the Bishop a heads up. He was all around a very unstable person, liar and drug abuser. But like most liars, could put on a good show in public. I think sometimes Bishops can get conned just like all of us. I think it is a fine line where the 'duty to report' is on one hand and when the 'mind your own business' line is on the other. If not for the calling, I would have minded my own business but this person, should not have been around children. I will not knowingly sustain a person who is not worthy to be sustained. 

Makes sense.  The OP was not regarding an affair. 
I really think the way to go is to not know anything about anyone.  I often know waaaaay too much.  

[John L]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And GA etc.  Of course. 
 

As for “most”, I try to avoid absolutes especially on this site.  The argument awaits.  Who can argue with most? 😇

 

I think you and I probably agree on this subject more than we disagree. 

One thing I've learned, especially in the past 20 years, is that most people have a secret life that no one knows about except for them. Using our church for example, lots of members drink alcohol, smoke, cheat on their spouse, masturbate, etc. The most humble, spiritual member you know probably "sins" on a daily basis. 

I personally would never turn a fellow member in. Especially now that I've researched scientology and the jehovah witnesses. 

[MustardSeed]

7 minutes ago, John L said:

that most people have a secret life that no one knows about except for them. Using our church for example, lots of members drink alcohol, smoke, cheat on their spouse, masturbate, etc. The most humble, spiritual member you know probably "sins" on a daily basis. 

Of course! Life is messy.  I’m ok with that- I wasn’t, when I was younger.  Now, I’m old.  I understand more now.  

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, John L said:

 

Would you mind explaining why a man who cheats on his wife shouldn't be around children?

Because of moral character? If it means they are a teacher in a church setting perhaps? And they are disfellowshipped they wouldn't be called to that position imo.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

29 minutes ago, John L said:

 

Would you mind explaining why a man who cheats on his wife shouldn't be around children?

Let me refine. I don't think a man forsaking his covenants in a serious way should hold a calling in Primary. I actually believe if you are not living in a way that would qualify you for serving in certain calling in the church, you should turn down callings. An affair certainly disqualifies one from service in primary.  People may have hidden lives and sin but that does not make it right that they lie and serve in callings that they should not have. Yes, we all sin but callings are not a 'right.' On the other hand, people should serve even if they are not perfectly living the gospel. My mom was a non-member primary teacher but was living the gospel and keeping the commandments. So, yes, the lines are messy but a person with any integrity would not serve unworthily but the liars lie. It's what they do. 

 

[bsjkki]

47 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Makes sense.  The OP was not regarding an affair. 
I really think the way to go is to not know anything about anyone.  I often know waaaaay too much.  

This is why I go to church with strangers. It's much more pleasant.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

This is why I go to church with strangers. It's much more pleasant.

Yes.  Me too now, I love it. 

[bsjkki]

Without knowing the details of the OP, it is really hard to know what the right move was but I think Duncan, because he knows all the facts, made the right call. From my experience, staying silent is not the right call in many situations and the fall out and consequences for unworthy service in high callings can be major. The higher the calling, the higher the fallout. The lines are hard sometimes but he disclosed privately to those with stewardship and authority, and it is now in their court. I see nothing wrong with that. 

I have a personal situation where I disclosed harassing and questionable behavior, and nothing was done, and the person was promoted to be a temple worker. This person truly has a double life and is not worthy to serve and does. His future victims will be added to the string of victims already known. Lovely. So many new members left the church due to this person. It's super sad.

Edited January 12, 2023 by bsjkki

[Rain]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I keep returning to this topic, obviously it interests me.  I think what interests me is that I seem to be a minority thinker here, and that I align myself with those who are expressing their concerns here in a way that makes me question my point of view.  So interesting! 
 

I think my position (don’t get involved) comes from my profession.  There are areas where I might get involved, areas where I definitely would get involved, none of which were in the scope of Duncan’s orignal question.  
 

Sexual abuse or someone’s physical safety is compromised? I’m telling.  I’m a mandated reporter anyway.  Anyang else?  I’m so bound to confidentiality that it’s a way of life for me .  In addition, when people reach out to me to “shed light”, it has always felt like a boundary crossing and I always have to tell my person that someone has told me something.  It never actually helps.  It only causes more problems, because there is point of view, bias, agenda, and limits to truth and information that the informer is restricted by.  
 

Without more info (which I’m curious about but not asking for) it’s really hard for me to get on board with approaching a leader (or anyone frankly) about someone’s behavior short of someone being in harms way.  *That said, a part of me thinks, I’ve always liked Duncan and I trust if he were to share the details I’d likely say “of course!  That makes sense now.” Honestly it’s also hard to understand the leader reporting back.  
 

Hold up,  I just had a thought, what if I found out the primary president was stripping at Pole Position on Fridays and Saturdays? Would I feel compelled to report that? She’s not putting anyone in physical danger nor is anyone involved non consenting.  Hmmm .  I would not,  but I can see how someone would and I would be less likely to disagree with the reporting. 
 

(it’s interesting this process I just experienced here.) 

I think most of us are closer to your thinking that you might feel.  It all has to do with not actually knowing the situation (not asking). It's really tough to make a call without the info so you just have to kind of read between the lines.  

 

2 hours ago, John L said:

Of course. I would too. I would tell the police first, then the bishop. 

 

So true! I don't understand why the leader is involving Duncan at all. It was none of his business after he reported. 

I had the impression that if the person did what Duncan was thinking they might have done that it would directly affect Duncan as well and that he would need to prepare for the fallout.  So I can see the stake president telling him he didn't need to worry about that.

2 hours ago, John L said:

 

Scientology doctrine has what is called "knowledge reports" which is a fancy smancy way for scientologist to report "sins" they know other members to be committing. They write a report of the alleged sin, turn it in, the higher ups call the sinner in and deal with it. Same thing Duncan just did! 

 

Most? 

 

And that's just it, isn't it. Everyone is a sinner, every Bishop, every Stake President. 

 

[Calm]

Duncan’s posting history does not suggest a person eager to report others for sinning.  He is very much, imo, a live and let live type of person and is not particularly rigid when it comes to what is sinning.  May even downplay others’ issues too much at time in my experience….which may have happened in the opening post as people don’t generally get excommunicated for sins that don’t cause other people any harm.  That suggests to me there is a good reason Duncan reported it.  I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Quote

so you just have to kind of read between the lines.  

And knowing who Duncan himself is or not informs how one is going to fill in the gaps.

John L,

Equating his behaviour to Scientology’s system without knowing why he reported is inappropriate, is calling out something as a sin when you lack sufficient knowledge to do so and seems to me to be in the same category as what you are accusing Duncan of doing.  Sure, express general concerns with reporting to leadership when it is not necessary, but don’t make absolute personal accusations when you lack information and you have no way of knowing what is actually going on.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, John L said:

 

Would you mind explaining why a man who cheats on his wife shouldn't be around children?

Why did you focus solely on that?  There was a lot more to her concerns.

Quote

He was all around a very unstable person, liar and drug abuser.

Kids should be protected when possible from someone who is unstable and depending on the drug used or other personality issues, the person might easily become abusive to a child and then lie about it.  Cheating on his wife is not in isolation from the rest of his behaviour even if it becomes the easiest way to demonstrate his instability and untrustworthiness.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Calm

[bsjkki]

I have learned from my mistakes. Once I reported a concern about a youth in the ward out of concern for their wellbeing. Got a very negative, not your business response. So, the next time I had concern for the wellbeing of a youth, I stayed out of it. Did not report. I regret it to this day. Hindsight proved I made the wrong call. These things aren’t easy.
 

 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I have learned from my mistakes. Once I reported a concern about a youth in the ward out of concern for their wellbeing. Got a very negative, not your business response. So, the next time I had concern for the wellbeing of a youth, I stayed out of it. Did not report. I regret it to this day. Hindsight proved I made the wrong call. These things aren’t easy.
 

 

I have had another mom from our ward call me and report something her son saw my son doing and I was so glad!  She was kind and not judgmental and I knew she was going it because she cared (and her son was a good kid who wasn't trying to tattletale but who really cared).  It's sad that the people you spoke to about the youth in your ward reacted so poorly. 

Everyone is always saying how it "takes a village" but if we believe that then that means that to some extent, our children's behavior or problems is everyone in their sphere's business.  Those kinds of phone calls can really suck sometimes but getting them can mean that you can intervene in a situation you didn't know about. 

And I think that most of the time they also mean that someone else loves your child.  I love the people who love my children.

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have had another mom from our ward call me and report something her son saw my son doing and I was so glad!  She was kind and not judgmental and I knew she was going it because she cared (and her son was a good kid who wasn't trying to tattletale but who really cared).  It's sad that the people you spoke to about the youth in your ward reacted so poorly. 

Everyone is always saying how it "takes a village" but if we believe that then that means that to some extent, our children's behavior or problems is everyone in their sphere's business.  Those kinds of phone calls can really suck sometimes but getting them can mean that you can intervene in a situation you didn't know about. 

And I think that most of the time they also mean that someone else loves your child.  I love the people who love my children.

So true! 

[Tacenda]

17 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This is why I go to church with strangers. It's much more pleasant.

 

17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes.  Me too now, I love it. 

Maybe the question has already been answered. But what do you mean strangers? Do you go to a different ward than your home wards? Maybe I should do that! Although, I feel I am already a stranger somewhat in my semi new ward, I have a problem with how I've been treated and it's not ever been a problem for me to have thin skin in my previous wards but this one is a long story. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

Maybe the question has already been answered. But what do you mean strangers? Do you go to a different ward than your home wards? Maybe I should do that! Although, I feel I am already a stranger somewhat in my semi new ward, I have a problem with how I've been treated and it's not ever been a problem for me to have thin skin in my previous wards but this one is a long story. 

Yes. We jumped ship.