Horns of a dilemma, moral obligation?

[Duncan]

24 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

You're sticking your nose in where it does not belong.

like my divorce? Follow your own advice

[MustardSeed]

Duncan I’m interested in what motivated you to report.  
 

A close friend confided that a family member was having an affair. This family member was an auxiliary leader in my ward. It didn’t dawn on me to report her.  First of all it was second hand.  Most of all, it doesn’t affect me.  It would feel like overfunctioning to me to tell on her.  Help us understand your pull to report. 

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah it's no wonder you're divorced.

That's totally uncalled for. Grow up.

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

You're sticking your nose in where it does not belong.

Paul would disagree with you. Read 1 Corinthians 5 sometime. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Nevo

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Duncan I’m interested in what motivated you to report.  
 

A close friend confided that a family member was having an affair. This family member was an auxiliary leader in my ward. It didn’t dawn on me to report her.  First of all it was second hand.  Most of all, it doesn’t affect me.  It would feel like overfunctioning to me to tell on her.  Help us understand your pull to report. 

motivation is that , if what I found out is true, has led and could very well lead to church discipline, if at the very least they get released. It's wrong what they are doing, plain and simple. It's not rumours or hearsay. I have seen the documents they created and they acted on and it's continuing to this day. I don't know how if they will ever confess or what the plan is. If any release or discipline happens, then it happens and that part of it isn't my business, whatever the Stake Presidency decides is what will happen. It's off my plate now and onto theirs. As I said before there is one piece I don't know but the Stake can figure that all out and it could be nothing or it could be something. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Duncan

[MustardSeed]

So you are interested in justice? 

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

So you are interested in justice? 

 i'm interested in judges in israel getting to the bottom of it, whatever that is or how that is, fine by me

[MustardSeed]

Fairness is important to you.  Maybe affairs hit a chord.  That makes sense. 

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Fairness is important to you.  Maybe affairs hit a chord.  That makes sense. 

I never said anything about any affairs. What happens now is the Stake Pres. business

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

like my divorce? Follow your own advice

I just find it highly ironic.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah it's no wonder you're divorced. You have no idea if the people involved repented and were forgiven or not. You're sticking your nose in where it does not belong.

Rod, you don’t know the circumstances. If there were legal documents involved, it sounds like something ongoing to me. It might look relatively harmless to outsiders, but could be causing big issues for those involved as well. 

My parents were shafted royally and had some miserable years (they made an apartment in their garage for themselves so had daily contact or rather mistreatment with the scammers) and almost lost their home because they sold/leased it to a delightful family in the ward…who happened to be scammers (kids were sweet, but neglected and possibly abused, but they were always dressed beautifully and had perfect manners, so who would have guessed) who had defrauded other members, but no one reported them or warned my parents to be careful because they saw it as better to forgive and mind their own business.

Thankfully my dad was wise enough to have a backup if there was a forfeit. The house and grounds were significantly damaged by then due to ‘renovations’ that never got finished and the house would have sold for much less at that point than if my parents had sold it out right.

The scammers told ward members they were just helping mom and dad who were having problems and other stuff, no one knew about the sale of the house so it appeared like no big deal from the outside. 
 

I so wish there had been a Duncan in my parents’ stake. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

He did say no one was in harms way

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

He did say no one was in harms way

That’s a hard call for me, because it sounds like there is at least one spouse in harms way, if we interpret being cheated on unknowingly as a form of harm.

I have a close friend who this happened too and she has always been adamant that she would have wanted to know sooner rather than later (and that is coloring my view of this situation somewhat). 

[MustardSeed]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That’s a hard call for me, because it sounds like there is at least one spouse in harms way, if we interpret being cheated on unknowingly as a form of harm.

I have a close friend who this happened too and she has always been adamant that she would have wanted to know sooner rather than later (and that is coloring my view of this situation somewhat). 

If it were me, I’d be inclined to approach the person doing the “damage” and let them know I know, how I know, and that they need to inform their spouse or I will.  But only if I were confident of my info and only if I had a personal relationship somewhere in the mix. 
I know I would not report it to a church authority. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

If it were me, I’d be inclined to approach the person doing the “damage” and let them know I know, how I know, and that they need to inform their spouse or I will.  But only if I were confident of my info and only if I had a personal relationship somewhere in the mix. 
I know I would not report it to a church authority. 

I don’t know what I would do. Or what would be right to do. 

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Rod, you don’t know the circumstances. If there were legal documents involved, it sounds like something ongoing to me. It might look relatively harmless to outsiders, but could be causing big issues for those involved as well. 

My parents were shafted royally and had some miserable years (they made an apartment in their garage for themselves so had daily contact or rather mistreatment with the scammers) and almost lost their home because they sold/leased it to a delightful family in the ward…who happened to be scammers (kids were sweet, but neglected and possibly abused, but they were always dressed beautifully and had perfect manners, so who would have guessed) who had defrauded other members, but no one reported them or warned my parents to be careful because they saw it as better to forgive and mind their own business.

Thankfully my dad was wise enough to have a backup if there was a forfeit. The house and grounds were significantly damaged by then due to ‘renovations’ that never got finished and the house would have sold for much less at that point than if my parents had sold it out right.

The scammers told ward members they were just helping mom and dad who were having problems and other stuff, no one knew about the sale of the house so it appeared like no big deal from the outside. 
 

I so wish there had been a Duncan in my parents’ stake. 

Ok. I'll just shut up. I know nothing.

We have only been married for 49 years. So we have been through perilous times. If people stuck their nose in our business I doubt it would have a happy ending. Maybe when I get a little more experience I can toss my 2 cents in.

 

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Ok. I'll just shut up. I know nothing.

We have only been married for 49 years. So we have been through perilous times. If people stuck their nose in our business I doubt it would have a happy ending. Maybe when I get a little more experience I can toss my 2 cents in.

 

I would be deeply offended if someone reported my sins to a church leader.  I would prefer they share their concerns directly with me, or better yet, focus on other things.  We are all messy.  After 30 years married I imagine we could have been reported a few times for bad behavior. 

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Ok. I'll just shut up. I know nothing.

We have only been married for 49 years. So we have been through perilous times. If people stuck their nose in our business I doubt it would have a happy ending. Maybe when I get a little more experience I can toss my 2 cents in.

 

Each situation is different, which is why I encouraged Duncan to pray about it. It may not prevent every misstep, but it can help. 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I would be deeply offended if someone reported my sins to a church leader.  I would prefer they share their concerns directly with me, or better yet, focus on other things.  We are all messy.  After 30 years married I imagine we could have been reported a few times for bad behavior. 

I think that’s what makes this situation so difficult (looking at it from “the harm done to the spouse” perspective), because everyone is so different. My friend would likely never forgive (or struggle greatly to do so) someone who knew about the affair but didn’t report it, and for her that is a valid response.

For you it sounds like the opposite would be true, and to me that is equally valid.

So for someone on the outside to try to navigate the situation and do the least possible damage to the victim, in a lot of ways it’s a craps shoot.

I’d probably do nothing because I wouldn’t want to get involved, but knowing myself, I would likely choose that because it was the easiest choice. Not necessarily the best one.

Maybe getting the information to the spouse rather than the ecclesiastical leader would be a good option?

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Ok. I'll just shut up. I know nothing.

We have only been married for 49 years. So we have been through perilous times. If people stuck their nose in our business I doubt it would have a happy ending. Maybe when I get a little more experience I can toss my 2 cents in.

 

You can toss your cents in about the dilemma, but not Duncan’s divorce. That was just mean. 

[MustardSeed]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Maybe getting the information to the spouse rather than the ecclesiastical leader would be a good option?

This is why I say I’d likely approach the offender and give them opportunity to begin the healing asap by confessing themselves to their spouse.  
plus the shame involved with the offender at being called out by a church authority could IME force a detrimental outcome. 
of course Duncan says this is not an affair, but if it were , this is my position. 
I can’t think of an alternative scenario that would have me going to church authorities unless children were in danger.  But that was made clear that is not the issue. 

I also know that when people are told by friends that their spouse is cheating, it generally affects the friendship negatively.  No one wants to hear it, and yet everyone wants to be told.  No one wins.  Always best if the offender comes clean. 

[Duncan]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This is why I say I’d likely approach the offender and give them opportunity to begin the healing asap by confessing themselves to their spouse.  
plus the shame involved with the offender at being called out by a church authority could IME force a detrimental outcome. 
of course Duncan says this is not an affair, but if it were , this is my position. 
I can’t think of an alternative scenario that would have me going to church authorities unless children were in danger.  But that was made clear that is not the issue. 

I also know that when people are told by friends that their spouse is cheating, it generally affects the friendship negatively.  No one wants to hear it, and yet everyone wants to be told.  No one wins.  Always best if the offender comes clean. 

no affairs, no cheating, no children but as I say in past situations like this I Know 2 people who were exed, as to what will happen now is in the very capable Stake Presidency's hands

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

You can toss your cents in about the dilemma, but not Duncan’s divorce. That was just mean. 

A) He asked for advice and then voted it down 

B) I think it's mean to torpedo someone's marriage 

But you're right I was mean.

SORRY DUNCAN.

 

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

A) He asked for advice and then voted it down 

B) I think it's mean to torpedo someone's marriage 

But you're right I was mean.

SORRY DUNCAN.

 

this isn't a case of torpedoing someone's marriage at all

[John L]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

this isn't a case of torpedoing someone's marriage at all

You don't know where an investigation into what you claim will go! It very well could torpedo a marriage. That's why you should stay out of other people's business. 

Do you realize there's always a chance you snitching to the Stake President could come back to haunt you? If what you're saying is true, and the person you turned in is doing something shady, they might retaliate against you. I hope you're not under the impression they are unable to find out who turned them in. My father was the kind of man that if you crossed him, or caused him any kind of pain, he would make sure you felt pain 10xs worse, and sometimes he wouldn't let up out of spite. Back in the 90s he paid two guys to beat up a business partner that stole a couple gallons of ink. They beat the guy with phone books until he gave up the fight. Point being, if you're going to be a snitch, watch your back. You never know. 

[Dario_M]

On 12/30/2022 at 12:22 PM, John L said:

You don't know where an investigation into what you claim will go! It very well could torpedo a marriage. That's why you should stay out of other people's business. 

I am totaly agree with this. Totaly agree!!!

Duncan@  stay out of people's business indeed like John says as well. I am sure you would understand this. If you intefere yourself into this matter it will get messy for sure. And why would you wanna have that? 

It wont do any good. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Dario_M