Arrested for praying

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Did I miss the part where the police asked her several times, politely , to move along ,like has been done many times to ordinance breakers ? 

If you did, then I did too. I just read the news story in the link (very brief) but I can’t get the video to load. 
 

Edited to add: I just realized Smac provided a link earlier in the thread to the video as posted by the New York Post. And no, there was no polite request for her to move along that I saw. 

I did get a chuckle from one of the Twitter posts that we tacked on at the end. It said, “I couldn’t read the badge on the police uniform. Did it say, ‘Thought police’?”

Edited December 24, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

At least they weren’t assaulting an 81-year-old woman who was using a walker to get around to prevent her from going where she wanted to go, eh Nehor? 😉

You have a very strained definition of the term “assault” don’t you?

Also DEATH TO FASCISTS!

That is all.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 I remain unconvinced

Do you honestly believe that an AllThingsProLife camera man was just coincidentally there to record  the whole thing? 

Do you honestly think no one had reason to be concerned after some mysterious lady shows up to an abortion clinic (historically known as places of violence, threats, and intimidation) over multiple days just standing in front of it? I don’t care what she claims she was doing, that is suspicious behavior!  Do you honestly think she didn’t realize that and was surprised when the police showed up? 

“If I was praying…” Do you honestly think that she was not legally coached in advance with that kind of language?

How are people not offended that religion and sacred acts like prayer are being used as smoke and mirrors?

Edited December 24, 2022 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

I found this video on YouTube of Vaughan-Spruce being interviewed. It’s four years old, but I think it’s pertinent to the current discussion. 
 

In it, she says, “The problem is that an offer of help is now branded as ‘harassment,’ mere presence is branded as ‘intimidation,’ prayer is ‘protest.’ The meanings of words have changed to suit [those imposing buffer zones].” 
 

She says her group agrees that women going to abortion centers should not be harassed or intimidated, chased down the street or have the entrance to the abortion center blocked. “We agree that should not be allowed. In fact everybody that joins our campaign has to sign what’s called a statement of peace saying they agree to behave lovingly, peacefully, to obey the law, they’re not allowed to use words like murder or murderer. It’s an absolute given that of course you don’t become part of our campaign unless you’re willing to agree to all these things.”

 

[Scott Lloyd]

41 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you honestly believe that an AllThingsProLife camera man was just coincidentally there to record  the whole thing? 

Do you honestly think no one had reason to be concerned after some mysterious lady shows up to an abortion clinic (historically known as places of violence, threats, and intimidation) over multiple days just standing in front of it? I don’t care what she claims she was doing, that is suspicious behavior!  Do you honestly think she didn’t realize that and was surprised when the police showed up? 

“If I was praying…” Do you honestly think that she was not legally coached in advance with that kind of language?

How are people not offended that religion and sacred acts like prayer are being used as smoke and mirrors?

How could someone be offended that sh was praying if there was no outward indication of it and the only way to know would be to ask her directly?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How could someone be offended that sh was praying if there was no outward indication of it and the only way to know would be to ask her directly?

No one was ‘offended’ she was praying. That is propaganda. Think it through. What was her objective? Why was she there? What was the result?

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No one was ‘offended’ she was praying. That is propaganda. Think it through. What was her objective? Why was she there? What was the result?

Pogi just said, “How are people not offended that religion and sacred acts like prayer are being used as smoke and mirrors?” I was responding to his comment. Apparent he thinks people WERE offended. Take it up with him. 

 

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Pogi just said, “How are people not offended that religion and sacred acts like prayer are being used as smoke and mirrors?” I was responding to his comment. Apparent he thinks people WERE offended. Take it up with him. 

 

They are not offended she was praying either. They are offended she was claiming she was being arrested for praying and was turning prayer into a weapon in this stupid fight she deliberately created to create propaganda that would only swallowed by credulous dolts.

The plan is working very well.

[Dario_M]

That is so ridicelous. Getting arrested for praying in public? But yeah... what can you expect from the UK. 😇

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s four years old, but I think it’s pertinent to the current discussion.

It certainly shows how it is very important to her, protest worthy.  
 

As far as harassment, what she and other members of her group and other similar groups see as loving may be seen harassment and intimidation.

The law was changed 4 years later. And maybe it crossed a line from reasonable to not. 

[Calm]

nvm, phone glitch 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Congrats to these protestors for working to make prayer a repulsive practice.

If she was wearing a hijab nobody would have dared bother her.

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This was an attempt to intimidate people going to a clinic and using the "I am not actually touching you" playground defense.

I doubt you will find praying on her arrest paperwork. She violated a law by going into an area that is protected from any possibility of harassment due to a history of rampant harassment.

She wasn't arrested for praying. That is ridiculous spin. Basically if you aren't going into or leaving the clinic you don't go into those zones. She was there to protest and possibly to intimidate and is now using the "I didn't actually touch you" defense. Plus the Bible tells people not to pray in order to be seen so this is kind of wrong on a religious level too.

Well you got a lot of upvotes for jumping to conclusions and asserting something that is factually incorrect  The abortion clinic was closed at the time and Isabel Vaughan Spruce knew it was closed. 

https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-prayer-outside-english-abortion-clinic/

Edited December 24, 2022 by teddyaware

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

If she was wearing a hijab nobody would have dared bother her.

Girl.. you are soooo right. 

God bless you. ✝️🙏

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Well you got a lot of upvotes for jumping to conclusions and asserting something that is factually incorrect  The abortion clinic was closed at the time and Isabel Vaughan Spruce knew it was closed. 

https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-prayer-outside-english-abortion-clinic/

I find that she had the right to pray there if she wanted too. I also pray where i wanna pray. Recently i prayed in park near a tree. 

I mean....that is my choice if i want too. That is not a good reason too arest somebody. How dare the police. 

I must say that i really dislike the gouverment of the UK anyway. Make me think a lot of the gouverment in the Netherlands. Lies lies and coruption. 

 

[rodheadlee]

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I find that she had the right to pray there if she wanted too. I also pray where i wanna pray. Recently i prayed in park near a tree. 

I mean....that is my choice if i want too. That is not a good reason too arest somebody. How dare the police. 

I must say that i really dislike the gouverment of the UK anyway. Make me think a lot of the gouverment in the Netherlands. Lies lies and coruption. 

 

I pray all the time. I pray when I'm walking, I pray when I'm driving, I pray when I'm building houses, I pray when I'm working on boats. I don't think I need to be looking out for "no praying here" signs.

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How could someone be offended that sh was praying if there was no outward indication of it and the only way to know would be to ask her directly?

You are not answering my question about the camera man, and others.  Please note, I said it doesn’t matter if she was praying or not, such behavior in front of a place historically known for violence and intimidation etc. is suspicious.  I would have felt concerned if I worked there.  

Thanks for providing this information about another interview from 4years ago which pretty much solidifies the fact that this was an organized campaign to protest - which is illegal in that zone.  There is no doubt anymore whatsoever.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

I pray all the time. I pray when I'm walking, I pray when I'm driving, I pray when I'm building houses, I pray when I'm working on boats. I don't think I need to be looking out for "no praying here" signs.

Do you go in no protest zones with a history of violence etc. over a period of 4 days with a camera-man on standby to record when the police show up with only having the intent to “pray”, and with no  other ulterior motives?

Watch the video Scott provided. Can there honestly be any doubt that this was an organized public protest in a no-protest zone?  1) We have the video from 4 years ago speaking about an organized “campaign” to protest these things that she is a part of; 2) we have the pro-life organization camera man there to record the whole thing; 3) We have the upload of the video online with accompanying protest; 4) she is the director of the UK Match for Life.  

Person, history, place, camera man, uploaded video, organized on-line protest.  No question whatsoever what this really was.

This was an act of activism plain and simple - and prayer was simply being used as a tool and reduced to filthy chum, or stink bait.

Smoke and mirrors people, smoke and mirrors!  Prayer is being defiled in this way.  She never admitted that she was even praying to be honest.  We have no evidence or confession that she was praying, but we have bountiful evidence of an organized protest and public activism in a no-protest zone.  Pretty straight forward to me.

In the video, she says “if I was praying…”. In teddyaware’s link it says this:

When officers showed her security footage of her standing outside the clinic on three separate occasions, she said it was impossible to know if she was praying at those moments. She could just as easily have been thinking about something else

 

If she is not making this about prayer to the police, why is it being made about prayer to the public - seems rather deceptive.    Perhaps we should not make this about something we have no evidence for and make it more about the clear and present evidence of protest/activism.

Edited December 24, 2022 by pogi

[Vanguard]

Oh my. Many thanks to most of you for keeping this exchange civil. I find myself swaying back and forth between the two arguments. 'Pendulumming' (my own coined word) back and forth like this on what I believe is both invigorating and unnerving! To hopefully further the discourse, I have a few questions and/or comments -

1. Doesn't protesting something require a demonstrable behavior of such (i.e., verbally speaking to those who are entering, praying out loud, wearing clothing with relevant statements on it, demonstrable physical gestures, etc)? How is only standing outside the abortion clinic (the only demonstrable activity) not allowed? Does the particular law in question stipulate how long one can be in the zone?

2.But what if there were several people simply standing outside the clinic over long periods of time? Wouldn't that be legitimately unnerving for those entering?

3. And how does the presence of the video crew incriminate this woman? Was the crew inside the protest zone? Before the police showed up, was their presence obvious to those entering (though the crew was probably outside of the zone)? Once the police started speaking with the woman, I too would pull my crew out. The issue at that point would be the inappropriateness of the police's inquiry and would therefore need a video presence.

Thoughts?

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Vanguard

[Calm]

On 12/24/2022 at 6:12 AM, teddyaware said:

Well you got a lot of upvotes for jumping to conclusions and asserting something that is factually incorrect  The abortion clinic was closed at the time and Isabel Vaughan Spruce knew it was closed. 

https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-prayer-outside-english-abortion-clinic/

Someone who actually cares enough to do research, bravo. I was wondering if anyone defending her would even bother.

 The clinic being closed makes it explicit she couldn’t have been there to help anyone personally (in the interview posted she talks about women coming to talk to her and that appears to be one of her reasons to oppose the new laws that were being explored at the time as the government held hearings among other things I expect; one result was the limited expansion of the restricted space to solely 150 meters from the clinics as public feedback showed that was all that was needed to prevent harassment).

That the clinic was closed for all four times indicates to me she was there to make a point about the restricted space, not there to pray over any souls or potential souls in the building, since there were none (as I listed in my evidence list in response to Scott’s claim of lack of evidence).  It is a good PR move, which is why I think of it as evidence she consulted legal advice to fine tune her protest to attack the restricted space law.

I agree she wasn’t there to harass anyone…but that was never part of my position.  She is, imo, trying to get back the right to persuade and support in her view, to harass in many others’ views, including the ones who make the laws.  

Though got to say if I was a neighbour and saw someone hanging around for several days after hours, I would be more likely to suspect they were up to no good, checking the place out for a potential break-in or even bombing. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Calm

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I pray all the time. I pray when I'm walking, I pray when I'm driving, I pray when I'm building houses, I pray when I'm working on boats. I don't think I need to be looking out for "no praying here" signs.

🤣🤣🤣

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How could someone be offended that sh was praying if there was no outward indication of it and the only way to know would be to ask her directly?

What is offensive is that “prayer” (I have no evidence or testimony that she actually was praying or that she was charged/sited for doing so) is being used as smoke and mirrors for ulterior motives.  It is being defiled and reduced to stink bait/chum for political activism.  

Could you imagine our prophets debasing prayer in such a way?  Using it with ulterior motives as bait and political weaponry with hidden camera crews, and never confessing that they were praying to the face of the police, but then subsequently making this all about prayer to the face of the public through an organized campaign?  How deceptive is that?  But it clearly shows their hand and that this was not an act of a single individual praying with no ulterior motives, but a premeditated campaign of an organization of multiple people to protest in a no-protest zone.  

 

[Vanguard]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree she wasn’t there to harass anyone…but that was never part of my position…though got to say if I was a neighbour and saw someone hanging around for several days after hours, I would be more likely to suspect they were up to no good, checking the place out for a potential break-in or even bombing. 

And this is one of the areas I'm getting hung up on. No one should have any problem with you being suspicious of another who is 'hanging around' - that shouldn't even be one of the questions. It should be something like - the police have followed up on your concern and found the individual to be doing nothing that runs afoul of any law. Why do you still think you have cause?

[Calm]

Appreciate the link, teddy, as it is the best so far to show her language is likely crafted to avoid being able to be prosecuted while still making a big splash in the news and getting that fundraiser going. 
 

Quote

When officers showed her security footage of her standing outside the clinic on three separate occasions, she said it was impossible to know if she was praying at those moments. She could just as easily have been thinking about something else

She certainly is not attempting to fight for the right to pray where she wants when she won’t even commit to actually praying, but only that she might have been, both in the encounter outside the clinic and later interrogation.

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Someone who actually cares enough to do research, bravo. I was wondering if anyone defending her would even bother.

 The clinic being closed makes it explicit she couldn’t have been there to help anyone personally (in the interview posted she talks about women coming to talk to her and that appears to be one of her reasons to oppose the new laws that were being explored at the time as the government held hearings, limited expansion of the restricted space to solely 150 meters from the clinics as public feedback showed that was all that was needed to prevent harassment).

That it was closed for all three times indicates to me she was there to make a point about the restricted space, not there to pray over any souls or potential souls in the building, since there were none.  It is a good PR move, again making me think she consulted legal advice to fine tune her protest to attack the restricted space law.

I agree she wasn’t there to harass anyone…but that was never part of my position…though got to say if I was a neighbour and saw someone hanging around for several days after hours, I would be more likely to suspect they were up to no good, checking the place out for a potential break-in or even bombing. 

That is exactly right.  These places likely have strong surveillance and after-hours security.   If her behavior didn’t raise a flag for these security officers as suspicious behavior, then they really suck at their jobs.  This was the expected and planned result of this organization of protestors that security would be doing their jobs well, and they were prepared with camera in anticipation of their job well done.  Then they spin “prayer” which she never confessed to to use as smoke and mirrors in their pre-meditated and organized public protest by multiple actors.