Fusion! Science or Miracle?

[mfbukowski]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:28 AM, Stargazer said:

The standard line has always been something like fusion will always take 20 years from now. An ever receding possibility.

No, that is the second coming. 

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

There are no miracles to God.  God never asks himself how He did something.  He knows exactly how he did it and the process that was required for it to occur. 

It is magic.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No, that is the second coming. 

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 

 

Billions of giggle:"whatts"???.

Cool. Thanks!

Edited December 18, 2022 by mfbukowski

[TheTanakas]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:03 PM, The Nehor said:

Water strider bugs are miracle workers?

It's a weight issue 😀   Even a butterfly could walk on water.

Then you have an aircraft carrier with its massive size and weight that is able to float.

[pogi]

Nevermind

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:20 PM, TheTanakas said:

It's a weight issue 😀 

It's density. Yet many humans manage to float, regardless of density. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by mfbukowski

[TheTanakas]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's density. Yet many humans manage to float, regardless of density. 

Do you have a scientific explanation of how Jesus walked on the water?

[rodheadlee]

20 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

Do you have a scientific explanation of how Jesus walked on the water?

Anti grav devices. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Do you have a scientific explanation of how Jesus walked on the water?

Of course not.

"Density" has more than one meaning 

[pogi]

19 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Anti grav devices. 

He actually has a flux capacitor set to cellular density regulation mode.  Most people don't realize it has functions other than time travel. 

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

He actually has a flux capacitor set to cellular density regulation mode.  Most people don't realize it has functions other than time travel. 

But then he can also reverse the coils, which allows him to turn up or down the matter refinement level for any type of energy.  So actually he could have gone "ex nihilo" to make earth from the energy of any nearby star by simply turning down the refinement level to where it says "mud" on the dial. 

I love this board, I used to read science fiction, but this is MUCH better! 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/18/2022 at 1:11 AM, Stargazer said:

 

 

The most important question is what kind of accent does the narrator have? It sounds like he is trying hard to hide his natural accent but slips occasionally.

An obvious example is the word "guarded" he uses at the beginning and "apart" he uses a couple of minutes into it, but it runs throughout 

Never heard English pronounced that way!

Edited December 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The most important question is what kind of accent does the narrator have?

Irish

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The most important question is what kind of accent does the narrator have? It sounds like he is trying hard to hide his natural accent but slips occasionally.

An obvious example is the word "guarded" he uses at the beginning and "apart" he uses a couple of minutes into it, but it runs throughout 

Never heard English pronounced that way!

The only guy I want to walk me through scientific discoveries is this guy.

 

[Eschaton]

26 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Irish

It took me a second to hear that too. I think I'm used to Irish people speaking much more quickly. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Irish

The trilled ‘r’s gave it away.

[smac97]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:23 PM, mfbukowski said:

Today is a historic landmark in science, it has been announced that nuclear fusion in a lab has been accomplished!

Humankind has achieved understanding of yet another of God's natural laws which might have been called "miraculous" in one kind of religious  paradigm, but not for members of the Church of Jesus Christ, who understand that "miracles" are simply results of scientifically observed principles we commonly call "laws"

A paper by an LDS professor has traced the history of our beliefs.

https://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-natural-law.php

"...If such is the fact, then, there never has been a miracle, and there never will be one. The laws of nature are the laws of truth. Truth is unchangeable, and independent in its own sphere. A law of nature never has been broken. And it is an absolute impossibility that such law ever should be broken.

This sentiment prevailed into the 20th century. LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, author of The Articles of Faith, wrote the following [Talmage1899, pg. 220]:

Miracles are commonly regarded as occurrences in opposition to the laws of nature. Such a conception is plainly erroneous, for the laws of nature are inviolable. However, as human understanding of these laws is at best but imperfect, events strictly in accordance with natural law may appear contrary thereto. The entire constitution of nature is founded on system and order.

With this more flexible theology, any lingering reasons for a "war" between science and religion totally evaporate. This may be part of the reason that so many LDS people have pursued careers in the field of science. For example, a 1974 study found that disproportionately large numbers of students who graduated from undergraduate programs in scientific fields in Utah (where the LDS Church is quite strong) went on to receive doctorates in these fields [Hardy1974]."

Yep.

"Miraculous" has a rather ephemeral popular definition that generally doesn't jibe with the Church's position, namely, "occurring through divine or supernatural intervention, or manifesting such power."  I've never thought of miracles as "the suspension of natural law," but rather as a higher manifestation of it.  I think this reflects the Church's perspective.  See here:

Quote

A miracle is a beneficial event brought about through divine power that mortals do not understand and of themselves cannot duplicate.

So a few attributes here:

• (A) "A beneficial event" - Self-explanatory, I think;
• (B) "Brought about through divine power" - God is the author of miracles;
• (C) "That mortals do not understand" - We do not know the mechanics of how Lazarus was raised from the dead, or how the pillar of fire / cloud worked for the Children of Israel ... so we are "ignorant" in that sense; and
• (D) "[Mortals] cannot [of themselves] duplicate" - We lack the power to perform miracles.

Fusion is not, I think, a "miracle" due to attributes (B) and (C).  Fusion is "a beneficial event," but not "brought about through divine power," and has instead occurred via scientific efforts, trial and error.

Fusion is not something that "mortals do not understand."  We do understand it, we just have not been able to do it ourselves, until now.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Fusion is "a beneficial event," but not "brought about through divine power," and has instead occurred via scientific efforts, trial and error.

I believe that all good comes from and through the power of God.  All enlightenment, in every field of study (religious or secular), is of God, via the application of sound principles. 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I believe that all good comes from and through the power of God.  All enlightenment, in every field of study (religious or secular), is of God, via the application of sound principles. 

 That is so in an ultimate sense. I was thinking of miracles in a more direct, interventionist sort of way.

Water to wine.  Lazarus.  Walking on water.   We don't really understand how these events occur, and we cannot replicate or duplicate them.   These do a better job of  Answering to the description of what miracles are as laid out in the encyclopedia of mormonism..

Thanks,

Smac

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I believe that all good comes from and through the power of God.  All enlightenment, in every field of study (religious or secular), is of God, via the application of sound principles. 

Yeah. It's all in the vibes.

That's why the Mo Tabs make me cry.  "Sound principles" : a joke but cosmically "true".

Heavy, dude! 🥰

 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Yep.

"Miraculous" has a rather ephemeral popular definition that generally doesn't jibe with the Church's position, namely, "occurring through divine or supernatural intervention, or manifesting such power."  I've never thought of miracles as "the suspension of natural law," but rather as a higher manifestation of it.  I think this reflects the Church's perspective.  See here:

So a few attributes here:

• (A) "A beneficial event" - Self-explanatory, I think;
• (B) "Brought about through divine power" - God is the author of miracles;
• (C) "That mortals do not understand" - We do not know the mechanics of how Lazarus was raised from the dead, or how the pillar of fire / cloud worked for the Children of Israel ... so we are "ignorant" in that sense; and
• (D) "[Mortals] cannot [of themselves] duplicate" - We lack the power to perform miracles.

Fusion is not, I think, a "miracle" due to attributes (B) and (C).  Fusion is "a beneficial event," but not "brought about through divine power," and has instead occurred via scientific efforts, trial and error.

Fusion is not something that "mortals do not understand."  We do understand it, we just have not been able to do it ourselves, until now.

Thanks,

-Smac

So glad to agree fully here, and this principle, generalized, is what brought me into the church- ie. the power of "beneficial events".

For me THIS is the logical portion of spirituality, belief itself IS a "beneficial event"

The Comforter brings comfort. (Alma 32)

The IDEAS FOUND in the BOM are themselves beneficial events: an embodied God, for example. We are one with Him

The covenant path brings B.E.'s.

I could go to every Doctrine and belief we have in the church as a "B.E".

All Kuhn says about paradigms can be seen as being about BE's.  

THIS is the essence as well of Pragmatism, and why I personally am here today 

No other religious paradigm I know results in more beneficial events and experiences.

Orthopraxy over Orthodoxy!

Both science and religion result in beneficial events within their "spheres of truth" ( President Kimball "Absolute Truth")

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/absolute-truth/

This is the place I hoped this thread would go! Thanks!

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 12/29/2022 at 8:15 AM, smac97 said:

Fusion is not, I think, a "miracle" due to attributes (B) and (C).  Fusion is "a beneficial event," but not "brought about through divine power," and has instead occurred via scientific efforts, trial and error.

Fusion is not something that "mortals do not understand."  We do understand it, we just have not been able to do it ourselves, until now.

I never said anything contradicting either of these; not sure why you mentioned them.  I could really make quite a list of what I did NOT say,  I am just wondering why you mentioned these two.   Perhaps your response was about the title of the thread, designed to provoke discussion and not to ask a question.  Obviously LDS folks already know the answer to the question.

But it does propose the question about whether or not science examines "divine power", and of course I would affirm that- what science DOES is examine our perception of divine power.

We look out at the world and seek to know the CAUSES of our perceptions (Rorty) and according to the LDS Paradigm, those sources of our perceptions ultimately are demonstrations OF "Divine Power".

I believe we do not see the "actual causes" of our perceptions- what we see is what we have been designed and evolved to see BECAUSE it is benefical to our happiness and survival, our safety, and our happiness and joy, by the power of God.  We see what we need to see to have long and joyful lives.  Darwin may have seen this as a Godless process of "survival of the fittest" but regardless of whether or not that is "true"- it is clearly the case that YES we ARE equipped with senses tuned to what is benefical or dangerous.

God provides for us by allowing us to see what we NEED to see to return to Him.  Colors show us what is benefical and what is dangerous, poisonous things typically smell or taste "bad", some sounds may indicate "danger" while others bring us joy.  We see and understand what we NEED and is benefical or what is dangerous and to be avoided.

But yes, my religious views suggest that ALL things are brought about by "divine power" and we are designed/have evolved/ both of these/ to define what is benefical and what is dangerous for us, so in a sense yes, we are designed to survive and those most fitted to do so, do in fact prosper while others who are what we see as "sick" or have other non-benefical traits, do not do so well and might die earlier than others.

So to me everything we see and know is a result of what God WANTS us to see and know, ultimately for our benefit by knowing "good from evil".  We are made in His image for a reason so we can grow to know earth life as He did and still does, in terms of what is benefical and non-benefical.

To me this outlook is called "Pragmatism" or "Instrumentalism".

Beliefs are tools to enable us to find and pursue what is benefical for us, and IMO the Covenant Path is exactly the best path to pursue what is benefical for earth life and the eternities.   We call this central paradigm the "True and living Church of Jesus Christ".   

 

[smac97]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I never said anything contradicting either of these; not sure why you mentioned them. 

I wasn't disagreeing with you.  I was sharing my viewpoint.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I could really make quite a list of what I did NOT say,  I am just wondering why you mentioned these two.   

Part of my viewpoint.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But it does propose the question about whether or not science examines "divine power", and of course I would affirm that- what science DOES is examine our perception of divine power.

Broadly and ultimately, yes.  He is the God of nature, after all.

Thanks,

- Smac

 

[Stargazer]

On 12/28/2022 at 7:33 PM, mfbukowski said:

The most important question is what kind of accent does the narrator have? It sounds like he is trying hard to hide his natural accent but slips occasionally.

An obvious example is the word "guarded" he uses at the beginning and "apart" he uses a couple of minutes into it, but it runs throughout 

Never heard English pronounced that way!

The YouTube channel Real Engineering is narrated by an Irishman. The channel is well-known among science aficionados.