"Holy men that ye know not of"

[manol]

In a recent thread @JLHPROFwrote, "We need more doctrinal and historical discussion... I even settle for some discussion on speculation right now."

I'm choosing to interpret that as an invitation.

Here is the text of D&C 49, verse 8:  "Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of." (emphasis mine)

The phrase in bold is inserted almost as an aside, and is not further elaborated on.  So we are left to speculate about who these "holy men that ye know not of" may be, and what they may be doing.

Engaging in such speculation is the purpose of this post.

Who are these "holy men that ye know not of"?  Well since they are "holy" men, I presume they are particularly advanced spirits, like Joseph Smith, who were "reserved" to come forth on the earth and fulfill their missions at a particular time in earth's history, like Joseph Smith was... though presumably their specific missions are not identical to his.

What might these "holy men that ye know not of" be doing?  Whatever the specifics, I think we could reasonably expect them to be assisting Christ with his mission (Moses 1:39), and probably doing so by teaching others, as other holy men have done before.

How might we recognize them?  "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt 17:16-20).  I think this means that they can be recognized by the works they bring forth, and by their teachings, and not necessarily by contemporary accounts of their personal lives.  Consider this:  If you had just found out about Joseph Smith for the first time and judged him by accounts of his personal life, you would probably get the impression that he was involved in a lot of scandals, had multiple affairs which he lied about, and was good at duping people.  But if you examine his works - the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the LDS Church, and his many advanced teachings - you might come to a different conclusion.  So I suggest the works and teachings brought forth by "holy men that ye know not of" probably matter a whole lot more than do accounts of their personal lives.

I think there is a good chance of at least some of the works of "holy men that ye know not of" showing up in their writings:

“For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.” (2 Nephi 29:11)

And, here's another vote for the works of advanced spirits showing up in writings: “Seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” (D&C 88:118)

How might we recognize the teachings of holy men who are not in the LDS Church?  "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" (Matt 7:7).   I think that once we make the DECISION to become seekers, the teachings we are supposed to find will find us. 

From there, the first step is the plant the seed (i.e., give the teaching a fair chance) and see what effect it has on you.  Does it enlarge your soul, enlighten your understanding, and cause your mind to expand?  Can you tell that it is light?  Might you even say that it is delicious to your soul? (Alma chapter 32).  Does it lead you to Christ?  "Every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God." (Moroni 7:16)

So... would it really be okay for a faithful Latter-day Saint to be open to the [theoretically existent] teachings of "holy men [we] know not of"?   I think so.  Joseph Smith apparently considered true Mormonism to encompass ALL truth:

“One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.”

“We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.”

What are your thoughts about "holy men that ye know not of" mentioned in D&C 49:8? 

Can we reasonably expect to find some of their teachings?

Is it plausible that their teachings would have something to offer us?

Edited June 11, 2022 by manol

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It always seemed most likely (to me) to be a reference to beings like the three nephites and John. 

[JLHPROF]

D&C 49:8. What Holy Men Has God Reserved unto Himself?

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that men “who were without sin, and reserved unto the Lord, are translated persons such as John the Revelator and the Three Nephites, who do not belong to this generation and yet are in the flesh in the earth performing a special ministry until the coming of Jesus Christ” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:209).

That was my first thought too.  No need to imagine secret sagebrush prophets.

[Kenngo1969]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It always seemed most likely (to me) to be a reference to beings like the three nephites and John. 

Perhaps, but we know of the Three Nephites and of John, don't we?    (Just sayin'!)

[manol]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It always seemed most likely (to me) to be a reference to beings like the three nephites and John. 

 Could well be.  I think we have some of the writings of John in D&C 7 [edit: ... and D&C 93, which indicates there is more of the record of John yet to be revealed].  Are there other such "holy men", which "[we] know not of"?  As @Kenngo1969noted, that seems to be implied. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by manol

[JAHS]

 

47 minutes ago, manol said:

So we are left to speculate about who these "holy men that ye know not of" may be, and what they may be doing.

Children who die before age 8?

[pogi]

I would guess that it is speaking of those whose callings and elections are made sure.  “All are under sin, except…”

I think Joseph taught that they are no longer in need of repentance like the rest of us.  And it is true that they are not generally made known to the public.

Edited June 11, 2022 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Perhaps, but we know of the Three Nephites and of John, don't we?    (Just sayin'!)

“Beings like”. More people like them. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Perhaps, but we know of the Three Nephites and of John, don't we?    (Just sayin'!)

Yeah but there are probably a lot more of us out there than you know what with translated beings from other dispensations that you don’t have names for. Some post on message boards to mess with the mortals.

[manol]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah but there are probably a lot more of us out there than you know what with translated beings from other dispensations that you don’t have names for. Some post on message boards to mess with the mortals.

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."  Hebrews 13:2

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, manol said:

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."  Hebrews 13:2

I'm ashamed to admit that, although I'm sure I've read that scripture before, I had forgotten it.  I really, really like that sentiment.  However, I'll see Paul's "angels," and raise them to "gods and goddesses in embryo" (though, always should we be mindful that, whatever the station in mortal life of the person or persons we entertain, never should we be unaware of their ultimate destiny).  

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm ashamed to admit that, although I'm sure I've read that scripture before, I had forgotten it.  I really, really like that sentiment.  However, I'll see Paul's "angels," and raise them to "gods and goddesses in embryo" (though, always should we be mindful that, whatever the station in mortal life of the person or persons we entertain, never should we be unaware of their ultimate destiny).  

I'm thinking along the same lines. The scripture, as written, feels like someone being good to a relative, hoping to get an inheritance, when really they should be good to them because of their love for them or their needs.

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, manol said:

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."  Hebrews 13:2

 

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm ashamed to admit that, although I'm sure I've read that scripture before, I had forgotten it.  I really, really like that sentiment.  However, I'll see Paul's "angels," and raise them to "gods and goddesses in embryo" (though, always should we be mindful that, whatever the station in mortal life of the person or persons we entertain, never should we be unaware of their ultimate destiny).  

 

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm thinking along the same lines. The scripture, as written, feels like someone being good to a relative, hoping to get an inheritance, when really they should be good to them because of their love for them or their needs.

When I thought of the fact that, as Children of God, we all are gods and goddesses in embryo, I thought of this:

Quote

 

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

—Marianne Williamson

 

 

[manol]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

—Marianne Williamson

Thank you for posting this quote, and your train of thought leading up to it.

I think that's the quote that often gets mis-attributed to Nelson Mandela.   While not the exact same concept Joseph Smith taught in the King Follet Discourse, it is similar in its vision of EVERYONE'S incredible innate nature and potential.  Something YOU obviously get as well:

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

However, I'll see Paul's "angels," and raise them to "gods and goddesses in embryo" (though, always should we be mindful that, whatever the station in mortal life of the person or persons we entertain, never should we be unaware of their ultimate destiny).  

And as Marianne said, as you let your light shine, it has its natural effect on others.  Thanks for not being afraid to be the light.

I first encountered Marianne Williamson on TV thirty-something years ago.  She was on some wee-hours-of-the-morning talk show, and the host was really giving her a hard time, really attacking her from every angle he could.  She was neither defensive nor flustered, her answers made sense, and she did not even seem to perceive what he was doing as being an attack.  I was impressed enough with how she genuinely "walked her walk" that I went out and bought her book "A Return to Love" the next day.  I wanted to see what her thought-system was. 

I think there are quite a few people scattered around whom God has no problem working through, whether they be "holy men that ye know not of" or modern-day writers or whatever.

Edited June 11, 2022 by manol