Question about chronic mental disorders

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

1) punishment from God or (2) the direct influence of Satan (or both) and who believe that, thus, it can be "cured"

That's what they get for reading the scriptures. 👿

 

[Metis_LDS]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Depression can be fixed by making changes in your life, choosing the think positively, and staying away from negative situations. Happiness is very much a choice… but don’t tell people that if they experience depression because that won’t go over well. But what if that is the solution? It was for me

You have to be very careful here,  I suffered long term depression from being abused as a child (more than 40 years of moderate to severe depression).  You can know someone who is depressed and say well they were not abused but you can never really know if they were or not.  I cannot say I fixed my depression, I did talking therapy and took a lot of Paxil, after many years the Paxil made me feel worse.  After a few years of not taking Paxil the depression just went away, it was just gone.  I am grateful for this to the Lord.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Metis_LDS
clarity, spelling

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

I’ve done a little bit of study on this with kit a lot of luck. This is one of those topics where you have to blindly agree with the narrative or you face the wrath of the world. And whether the narrative is true or false, it makes it hard for normal people, like me, to really learn about it.

How is the wrath of the world coming down on you? Learning about it mostly involves just reading and studying. Or do you mean sharing your views in various places?

The “I’m just asking questions” person in a discussion is generally shunned from a lot of spaces because it usually means they are there to preach, insinuate, or troll. Expect to get run out if you come in with that approach.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Do you believe any form of depression can be fixed in this way?

No, I believe there are some that can’t,

my general theory is that society has conditioned many people to believe that simply changing the way they live and think will not help, that they need invasive drugs and therapy and that they are somehow powerless to their depression. This is surely true in some case, but there seems to be an obsession with it.

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

How is the wrath of the world coming down on you? Learning about it mostly involves just reading and studying. Or do you mean sharing your views in various places?

The “I’m just asking questions” person in a discussion is generally shunned from a lot of spaces because it usually means they are there to preach, insinuate, or troll. Expect to get run out if you come in with that approach.

I personally haven’t done much discussion in this space, but I have seen people state “happiness is a choice” and gave it followed by back biting, gossip, and on one occasion an angry outburst. All of this in the name of saying people are powerless to depression without drugs and therapy

[Fether]

17 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

You have to be very careful here,  I suffered long term depression from being abused as a child (more than 40 years of moderate to severe depression).

This is what I am talking about. I bet a large sum (maybe a majority, maybe not) of people who are diagnosed (and the convenient thing about this space is you can’t confirm if it is medically or self diagnosed) with clinical/chronic depression may not actually be. They just tell themselves it is the case and they begin to believe it. The mind is powerful. 
 

I always get nervous when we start preaching the unique situations in the name of protecting them. When all we do is preach the exception, we begin to think the exception is the rule.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

To tell someone that they just need to chose to be happy, and leave it at that, when they are depressed truly is a really bad idea.  There is a reason why it doesn't go over well.  

 

I do agree. There is a difference between what is true and what is useful.

I would say that if we can convince them it is a choice in a way that resonates with them, it will help.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Fether said:

No, I believe there are some that can’t,

my general theory is that society has conditioned many people to believe that simply changing the way they live and think will not help, that they need invasive drugs and therapy and that they are somehow powerless to their depression. This is surely true in some case, but there seems to be an obsession with it.

I think you are operating with a caricature here. I spend more time convincing people they should try drugs they are afraid of. I am sure there are people out there who just collect new prescriptions like they are Pokémon but they are the minority.

I was terrified of medication when I first realized it was probably part of my best treatment option. I went off them after a time hoping that the kickstart from using them for a while had dealt with the underlying problem. After enduring about a week of withdrawal I was back to the old pre-drug mental space and realized I did still need the help. That is the norm in my experience. Most people who have depression think on some level like you do that if they just try harder, act better, and make better choices they can beat this thing. You are not having a radical paradigm-shifting thought. You have the default conclusion. The reason people bite when you share it is not because it undermines their paradigm of how the world works. It is that most of the people you are dealing with know the voice of their torment. Your worldview is a cliche to them. They are working hard to silence it so they can use the tools they have so they can be happy in life or at least tolerate life or even just not feel as bad.

https://www.theonion.com/son-wed-all-like-to-lie-around-all-day-being-clinicall-1819584111

[Fether]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What do you think medicine and therapy do? A lot of therapy involves techniques to overcome negative thinking. Medication (ideally) mitigates the worst of the pain and self-destructive thinking so you can dig your way out or at least dig a little ways up.

Sounds like situational depression and I am glad you were able to find a way to mitigate and eliminate the causes.

To go easy on you?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Outside of some internet spaces and some potentially codependent parents where are people and society in general going easy on the depressed? I have ADHD which often leads to depression and in my case has. It amuses me to no end when someone asks if the whole thing is self-inflicted and if I would just buckle up and bear down and think more positively it would melt away. I know that song and dance. It is an echo of what my brain has been telling me every day since childhood:

If I would just work a little harder and fight harder and really focus the whole thing is beatable. The medication is an unhealthy coping mechanism that could potentially cost a few years from my life, I am obviously mired in self-pity and I am a fraud using the diagnosis to justify what is clearly just a moral weakness. Drop the medication and try harder and you will finally achieve the true potential you have been squandering your whole life.

I think instead of asking how many people are faking chronic illness as an excuse to live an exciting life of misery we should instead be asking about the spike in mental illness what are the environmental effects that are exacerbating these conditions and triggering them. We also often ignore that these conditions aren’t new. People didn’t go to the torture chambers of the old sanitariums in Europe because it was an easier life. The mentally ill went there or self-medicated themselves with alcohol or some other vice into oblivion or ended the pain through death or found some way to cope (healthy or otherwise) and endured in long-term misery.

You have someone who has lived in an echo chamber of how worthless they are for their entire life. Would the habits of shameful thinking still be considered self-inflicted? Does the nature of the cause mean that it is easier or even possible to cure?

 

I have been to therapy. My wife and I both found that after about 3 months, we were just hearing repeats of what we already knew and felt there was nothing left to gain. We then executed on those things and have never looked back.

and I would go on to say that it is a good thing I am not suggesting this whole thing is self inflicted. Nor am I asking how many are faking it. 

My main question is whether it could be self inflicted on some scenarios. I’m not talking about those who experience trauma and abuse. I’m talking about if someone could be situationally depressed, diagnose themselves as clinically depressed and then spend their life telling themselves they are depressed to the point that it actually becomes that way.

I have a family member that is extremely shy, socially awkward, and somewhat of a pathological liar for the sake of getting attention. Could this person, if they figured out it gave them attention and covered up their flaws, convince themselves into clinical depression if they saw a benefit to it? (Note: this thread is not about this person in particular. I actually forgot about them until just now)

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you believe any form of depression can be fixed in this way?

I’ll also add that this is an essential step on fixing all depression. This alone won’t fix all depression, but it is a necessary ingredient

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

I personally haven’t done much discussion in this space, but I have seen people state “happiness is a choice” and gave it followed by back biting, gossip, and on one occasion an angry outburst. All of this in the name of saying people are powerless to depression without drugs and therapy

Ah, so you are the victim here? Got it. All those mean depressed people won’t listen to you. Clearly they are just defending their depressed state so they can maintain it in a cunning plot to exclude you from the conversation and hurt your feelings.

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Ah, so you are the victim here? Got it. All those mean depressed people won’t listen to you. Clearly they are just defending their depressed state so they can maintain it in a cunning plot to exclude you from the conversation and hurt your feelings.

No… you missed the part where I saw I haven’t done much talking about it… so no… I’m not a victim. Nor would I consider myself to be had I been the one talking

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Fether said:

I do agree. There is a difference between what is true and what is useful.

I would say that if we can convince them it is a choice in a way that resonates with them, it will help.

Go to the places many depressed people hang out and unless it is a weird hugbox you will see the ‘tough love’ you think will help. They are told that it is their choice whether they seek treatment or do things like eating healthy or taking a walk or cleaning up that could improve their mood and that no one else can do it for them. Some of the depressed come up with long explanations as to why any potential method of dealing with depression won’t work. The response is along the lines of: “Your brain is broken and is addicted to sad chemicals. Don’t trust it. You have to take small solid steps out.” These steps often involve therapy and medication.

Your particular approach though is pretty useless. If people listen to you and “choose” not to be depressed and the depression doesn’t stop they get more depressed. Offering false unrealistic hope is counterproductive. What can work is often slow, grinding, steady improvement that takes weeks or months to show even minor improvements and sustaining the decision to keep going even when it does not appear to be working and your brain is continuously flooding your thoughts with propaganda of how futile it is to keep trying.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

 

Your particular approach though is pretty useless. 

You are talking about legitimately clinically depressed people. Please tell me what my approach is for people in such situations. 

[ttribe]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

You are talking about legitimately clinically depressed people. Please tell me what my approach is for people in such situations. 

And yet you've said that many people who are diagnosed as clinically depressed, aren't really clinically depressed. As far as I can tell, you've offered no way to make that determination in your paradigm.

In my experience it is very dangerous and presumptuous for an untrained, uncredentialed, layman to offer their alternative solutions to depression. "Choose to be happy" is reductionist and dangerous insomuch as it fails to recognize the complexities of human biology and psychology and further places the blame back on the individual for their circumstances. That is exactly the opposite of what someone in clinical depression should be told.

ETA: I have no idea what this has to do with discussing Mormonism, by the way.

Edited May 2, 2022 by ttribe

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, Fether said:

You are talking about legitimately clinically depressed people. Please tell me what my approach is for people in such situations. 

Regardless of the cause or root issues, all depression is legitimate, unless they are faking it. 

Are you suggesting that clinical depression cannot be a result of poor life choices and unhealthy coping mechanisms (or self-induced -whatever that means)?  I'm not sure what you are distinguishing clinical depression from.  

 

 

[Fly Fisherman]

I know this doesn't really contribute to the debate of the subject, but I always take the chance when it arises to make awareness of George Albert Smith's mental/emotional breakdown in the early 1900s as an Apostle. It simply is a part of Church history that isn't well known, and, at least in my opinion, it ought to be. As a sufferer of chronic anxiety/depression myself, I turn to this document frequently - it simply gives me peace.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23290831?seq=1

In the journal that it was published in:

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1056&context=mormonhistory

 

It's a fascinating read if you have an interest in mental illness. 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

No, I believe there are some that can’t,

my general theory is that society has conditioned many people to believe that simply changing the way they live and think will not help, that they need invasive drugs and therapy and that they are somehow powerless to their depression. This is surely true in some case, but there seems to be an obsession with it.

A lot of doctors want to help patients who are desperate and most only have medications to offer.  It must feel rotten to tell someone upset and asking for help ‘sorry, can’t help you’, so it is easy to see why pills might be over prescribed. Also, some doctors may be too prone to diagnose depression when it is not (my case, 20 years of telling I am exhausted but happy in my life still got me labeled as a depressive when it was a sleep disorder…at least 5 different doctors).  Thank goodness the Internet allows for sufferers of a variety of disorders educate themselves (I was the one who found my actual diagnosis, confirmed by specialists).  In the end chronic health issues did indeed end me up with chronic depression unfortunately.

You have the wrong idea about most therapy it seems. It is about giving power to the client, not removing their responsibility.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

My wife and I both found that after about 3 months, we were just hearing repeats of what we already knew and felt there was nothing left to gain. We then executed on those things and have never looked back.

 

It can take time to find the right therapist for a particular individual. Makes a huge difference (studies showed in the past it was the difference, but we have cognitive behaviour therapies that have been shown to effective consistently now).

Edited May 2, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I bet a large sum (maybe a majority, maybe not) of people who are diagnosed (and the convenient thing about this space is you can’t confirm if it is medically or self diagnosed) with clinical/chronic depression may not actually be

I highly doubt it. It is not a pleasant or rewarding experience, the drugs are not ‘fun’ drugs and from what I have seen, even when your family tries hard to be supportive, their frustration level makes it such there is no way most mentally healthy people would choose this as a way to avoid life. 
 

Anyone who is actually doing this, talking themselves into depression because of the rewards it provides is going to be mentally unhealthy in other ways first, so it really doesn’t matter whether they ‘talked’ themselves into depression or it ‘naturally’ happened.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Fly Fisherman said:

I know this doesn't really contribute to the debate of the subject, but I always take the chance when it arises to make awareness of George Albert Smith's mental/emotional breakdown in the early 1900s as an Apostle. It simply is a part of Church history that isn't well known, and, at least in my opinion, it ought to be. As a sufferer of chronic anxiety/depression myself, I turn to this document frequently - it simply gives me peace.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23290831?seq=1

In the journal that it was published in:

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1056&context=mormonhistory

 

It's a fascinating read if you have an interest in mental illness. 

 

That was incredibly interesting.  Thanks for sharing.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

my general theory is that society has conditioned many people to believe that simply changing the way they live and think will not help, that they need invasive drugs and therapy and that they are somehow powerless to their depression.

When your maladaptive patterns of thinking are themselves the problem - when they have deeply engrained neuronal pathways of habitual use - it doesn't seem wise to rely on them to get you out of the rut that they put you in in the first place.  It is a case of the blind leading the blind self.   I am struggling to understand why you think there is something wrong with getting an outside perspective, help, and support from someone with a healthy perspective.    It usually requires an outside perspective of a healthy individual who is not trapped in the same cycle of toxic thoughts/beliefs/behavior to identify just what the problem is, why it is unhealthy, and how to change it.  Often changing the way you think can be as difficult as overcoming a severe addiction.  Many truly are powerless on their own.  

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by pogi

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

I highly doubt it. It is not a pleasant or rewarding experience, the drugs are not ‘fun’ drugs and from what I have seen, even when your family tries hard to be supportive, their frustration level makes it such there is no way most mentally healthy people would choose this as a way to avoid life. 
 

Anyone who is actually doing this, talking themselves into depression because of the rewards it provides is going to be mentally unhealthy in other ways first, so it really doesn’t matter whether they ‘talked’ themselves into depression or it ‘naturally’ happened.

My teenager son has been on a few different types of depression drugs and they suck.  They are useful, but still, they suck.  The side effects can be pretty bad, and from what I've heard, a lot of people who should be on them stop taking them because they don't want to deal with the side effects. 

I can't imagine anyone wanting to be on them for fun.

Edited May 2, 2022 by bluebell

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My teenager son has been on a few different types of depression drugs and they suck.  They are useful, but still, they suck.  The side effects can be pretty bad, and from what I've heard, a lot of people who should be on them stop taking them because they don't want to deal with the side effects. 

I can't imagine anyone wanting to be on them for fun.

Psilocybin (magic mushrooms) is one of the most promising drugs available (soon) for depression and PTSD disorders.  The best part is that it is single use - no need for daily and long-term dosing.  Long term effect.  Many report being entirely cured of severe chronic clinical depression and PTSD with one dose.  Few side-effects other than a really good trip (which will actually be a big turn-off for many).  The more effective depression//anxiety medications are extremely addictive, and the less effective ones have really nasty side effects like sexual dysfunction, permanent ED, dry mouth that doesn't go away even after stopping the medicine, etc., etc, etc, etc etc, etc,   Utah is looking to legalize its therapeutic use.  I hope it passes.  Oregon has already legalized it and it is supposed to be available by the end of this year in controlled clinical settings with the guidance of psychologist present.   There is a lot of really promising research.  

Edited May 2, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Psilocybin (magic mushrooms) is one of the most promising drugs available (soon) for depression and PTSD disorders.  The best part is that it is single use - no need for daily and long-term dosing.  Long term effect.  Many report being entirely cured of severe chronic clinical depression and PTSD with one dose.  Few side-effects other than a really good trip (which will actually be a big turn-off for many).  Depression/anxiety medications can be extremely addictive, or they have really nasty side effects like sexual dysfunction, permanent ED, dry mouth that doesn't go away even after stopping the medicine, etc., etc, etc, etc etc, etc,   Utah is looking to legalize its therapeutic use.  I hope it passes.  Oregon has already legalized it and it is supposed to be available by the end of this year in controlled clinical settings with the guidance of psychologist present.   There is a lot of really promising research.  

The stuff that is coming into play now could be seen as ‘fun’, that is true.