The Need For Prophets, and the need for changes.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We maintain our need for Prophets, but why do we crave change? We look forward to the announcements of new Temples, but why hunger for more. God our Father, and his son Jesus Christ know all things, see all things. So why do we hope during General Conference, do we watch and hope for “earth moving” pronouncements. With few exceptions, almost everything was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, which makes up all but three sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Other than the Prophet Joseph F. Smith, all other Presidents are more like Administrators. Certainly one day, a Prophet will rise, who will usher in the “Second Coming”, but few if any will receive revelations that will be added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Most will just encourage us to keep the commandments, attend the Temple, and draw closer to Jesus Christ. Also at times make changes to meeting times and structures for classes, in short, “Administrators”, much like a Principal would do. Except the Prophet is meant to “Shepherd the heard”, which is no small feat.  

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Other than the Prophet Joseph F. Smith, all other Presidents are more like Administrators.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Here is my favorite conference talk ever.  It offers a different perspective.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/live-according-to-the-words-of-the-prophets?lang=eng

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

We look forward to the announcements of new Temples, but why hunger for more.

Because it means more people can get their own temple ordinances done, do the proxy work for their families and visit the temple when they desire a change to experience the peace and communion that can occur there.

If we have our children and grandchildren and feel our quiver is full, should we therefore not celebrate when others announce they are pregnant or a new grandchild is on the way (assuming they see this as a blessing in their lives)?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

We maintain our need for Prophets, but why do we crave change? We look forward to the announcements of new Temples, but why hunger for more. God our Father, and his son Jesus Christ know all things, see all things. So why do we hope during General Conference, do we watch and hope for “earth moving” pronouncements. With few exceptions, almost everything was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, which makes up all but three sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Other than the Prophet Joseph F. Smith, all other Presidents are more like Administrators. Certainly one day, a Prophet will rise, who will usher in the “Second Coming”, but few if any will receive revelations that will be added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Most will just encourage us to keep the commandments, attend the Temple, and draw closer to Jesus Christ. Also at times make changes to meeting times and structures for classes, in short, “Administrators”, much like a Principal would do. Except the Prophet is meant to “Shepherd the heard”, which is no small feat.  

I think there have been profound changes in doctrine and policies over the years. See:

https://gregkofford.com/products/this-is-my-doctrine

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Here is my favorite conference talk ever.  It offers a different perspective.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/live-according-to-the-words-of-the-prophets?lang=eng

I don’t feel any way than I should. I both support and sustain President Nelson as “Prophet, Seer and Revelaor ”, and believe the other 14 Apostles, as the same. I also believe that if God seeks to reveal anything, it will be our current Prophet. However, it would seem that the only thing revealed for a very long time, are Temple locations, and administrative issues, such as meeting hours and times. Unless I missed something via the Conference talks I recorded and have not yet watched. However, I am in every way, a true-blue-believer. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, and I believe in both the Church, and our leadership.

Maybe you can do a reread, and point out any comment that suggests that I am not a believer to my very core. If so, I would like to correct it, least others see me as (even a partial) apostate. It was not my wish to covey such a message, and I look forward to correcting any such idea. 
 

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Lee

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

We maintain our need for Prophets, but why do we crave change? We look forward to the announcements of new Temples, but why hunger for more. God our Father, and his son Jesus Christ know all things, see all things. So why do we hope during General Conference, do we watch and hope for “earth moving” pronouncements. With few exceptions, almost everything was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, which makes up all but three sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Other than the Prophet Joseph F. Smith, all other Presidents are more like Administrators. Certainly one day, a Prophet will rise, who will usher in the “Second Coming”, but few if any will receive revelations that will be added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Most will just encourage us to keep the commandments, attend the Temple, and draw closer to Jesus Christ. Also at times make changes to meeting times and structures for classes, in short, “Administrators”, much like a Principal would do. Except the Prophet is meant to “Shepherd the heard”, which is no small feat.  

I think it's the belief that new pronouncements are indicative of prophetic revelation.  And, as a people, we love prophetic revelation.

That said, I think we should also be happy when conference is reminder to work on the simple gospel principles that we already have, with nothing new.

Side note:  Didn't President Nelson (or someone) make a request to *not* cheer when new temples are announced?   

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I don’t feel any way than I should. I both support and sustain President Nelson as “Prophet, Seer and Revelaor ”, and believe the other 14 Apostles, as the same. I also believe that if God seeks to reveal anything, it will be our current Prophet. However, it would seem that the only thing revealed for a very long time, are Temple locations, and administrative issues, such as meeting hours and times. Unless I missed something via the Conference talks I recorded and have not yet watched. However, I am in every way, a true-blue-believer. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, and I believe in both the Church, and our leadership.

Maybe you can do a reread, and point out any comment that suggests that I am not a believer to my very core. If so, I would like to correct it, least others see me as (even a partial) apostate. It was not my wish to covey such a message, and I look forward to correcting any such idea. 
 

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Lee

You don't consider President Nelson's pre-pandemic call for individuals gospel learning to be home-centered and Church-supported to be revelatory?  Was it just coincidental that this came a year and a half before the lockdowns?

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/opening-remarks?lang=eng

As saints we believe that God has much to reveal to us.  But we also believe that God give line upon line and precept upon precept.  Perhaps the new revelation that you are desiring is not being given, not because are current leadership are administrators more that revelators as you propose, but because we as a church have yet to master the current lines and precepts that have been revealed. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Because it means more people can get their own temple ordinances done, do the proxy work for their families and visit the temple when they desire a change to experience the peace and communion that can occur there.

If we have our children and grandchildren and feel our quiver is full, should we therefore not celebrate when others announce they are pregnant or a new grandchild is on the way (assuming they see this as a blessing in their lives)?

I was pointing out the fact that Prophets tell us of Temples, as we rejoicing at new Temples. I was just pointing out that other than Temple locations, Revelations found in the “Doctrine and Covenants” or “Official Declarations” don’t happen anymore. Which is why I spoke of little more than Administration issue that occur. Which may mean all that all of this has been revealed, as in formal revelation. Maybe we have received all we need (other than Temples) which will one day dot the entire earth. But maybe the time of such things as D&C 138 has past. Maybe we only need to be reminded to follow, (or obey) the commandments, thus the Administrative issue are all we need now, and certainly more Temples, a lot more Temples. We have the Standard Works, which we give to little attention, and the teachings of the Prophets (I wish we that we still did, for Priesthood and Relief Society study) as they were pure gold. Anyway, I did not (ever) wish to appear that I did not cherish the First Presidency, and the 12 Apostles. Because without them we would be a ship without a rudder, adrift without any direction. As I love and cherish each and every one of our leadership. God has truly blessed us as a people, beyond measure! May he continue to bless us as he has done from the foundation of the Church. 
 

Anyway, I hope this clears up things for us, and that I am a believer, and faithful to the Church, and to our cause. Come November, I will be sending a granddaughter on a mission. Something I would not due, if I were not a true believer. If not a true believer, I would do all within my power to keep he here. She listens to he Papa, and comes to me anytime she has a question, not to mention the avalanche of books, I have buried her under. She loves to read, and peppers me with questions each Sunday. However, if it can’t wait, she calls me. I love her too much to send he on a mission for a Church that I have doubts about.

[Buckeye]

5 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

We maintain our need for Prophets, but why do we crave change? ….  

Constant improvement is part of our gospel.  “… We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”

I see the blessings my sons receive by administering priesthood ordinances. I desire my daughters to receive the same. I see the blessings that come to my hetero siblings through marriage and temple sealings. I desire my gay and lesbian cousins and friends to receive the same. 

To borrow Elder Uchtdorf’s metaphor, there is so much wonderful food available at the cruise banquet that we are not currently partaking of. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Buckeye

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I think it's the belief that new pronouncements are indicative of prophetic revelation.  And, as a people, we love prophetic revelation.

That said, I think we should also be happy when conference is reminder to work on the simple gospel principles that we already have, with nothing new.

Side note:  Didn't President Nelson (or someone) make a request to *not* cheer when new temples are announced?   

I agree with your comments, and I too love President Nelson. I think I need someone to proofread my threads, Either someone here I trust in a PM, then when corrected, I can cut/paste the finished draft. I wonder if anyone I have known these last 15 years? Or maybe my family, however my fear is they will approve everything out of love? 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

7 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Constant improvement is part of our gospel.  “… We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”

I see the blessings my sons receive by administering priesthood ordinances. I desire my daughters to receive the same. I see the blessings that come to my hetero siblings through marriage and temple sealings. I desire my gay and lesbian cousins and friends to receive the same. 

To borrow Elder Uchtdorf’s metaphor, there is so much wonderful food available at the cruise banquet that we are not currently partaking of. 

I understand “change”, but a lot of my friends are disappointed when there is no change. I was just posing the question, not suggesting that we always need too move, just to have change. Many times, constancy is the rock upon which we stand, as the sea rages around us, giving us comfort, and confidence. Other times change, helps us to feel as we are making progress. Both have their place, and both can bring us peace. Movement for the sake of movement, does not always bring us closer to God. Just as stagnation for the sake of consistency can be unsettling, or unnerving, keeping from coming closer to God. In short, we should move when God commands, and be like the “tree planted by the waters”, which never moves, again only when God commands. It is only the scriptures, that act as a compass, or the Liahona that will, tell us to “Be still, and know that i am God”, or be our guide in a land in which we are unsure. Either way, this Liahona, will till us we are already there, or guide us to where God abides, either way we will find His, our home

[ksfisher]

42 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Revelations found in the “Doctrine and Covenants” or “Official Declarations” don’t happen anymore

As we studied the D&C last year I was struck by how many of the sections seemed to deal with mission calls or other sorts of callings to individuals.  Imagine how thick the D&C would be if even a weeks worth of mission calls today were placed in the D&C. 

 

[Buckeye]

2 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I understand “change”, but a lot of my friends are disappointed when there is no change. I was just posing the question, not suggesting that we always need too move, just to have change. Many times, constancy is the rock upon which we stand, as the sea rages around us, giving us comfort, and confidence. Other times change, helps us to feel as we are making progress. Both have their place, and both can bring us peace. Movement for the sake of movement, does not always bring us closer to God. Just as stagnation for the sake of consistency can be unsettling, or unnerving, keeping from coming closer to God. In short, we should move when God commands, and be like the “tree planted by the waters”, which never moves, again only when God commands. It is only the scriptures, that act as a compass, or the Liahona that will, tell us to “Be still, and know that i am God”, or be our guide in a land in which we are unsure. Either way, this Liahona, will till us we are already there, or guide us to where God abides, either way we will find His, our home

I see. I misunderstood you. Certainly there are some who want change just for changes sake. That’s not my view. I want “more good” - to use Joseph’s definition of Mormon.
 

And yes, there needs to be a balance with constancy. We can’t run faster than we have strength. The branches can’t grow so fast they exceed the strength of the roots.
 

But we also don’t just wait for God to give more. That’s never how revelation comes. We must decide for ourselves what is good and then seek confirmation. That’s the model for individuals and the church as a whole. 

[Buckeye]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

As we studied the D&C last year I was struck by how many of the sections seemed to deal with mission calls or other sorts of callings to individuals.  Imagine how thick the D&C would be if even a weeks worth of mission calls today were placed in the D&C. 

 

I’ve made the same point in many talks. Revelation hasn’t stopped. We just don’t codify it in the d/c because it’s not practical. My sons mission call is just as much revelation as Samuel Johnson’s, just not codified. 

[SwedishLDS]

The prophets help us hold the rod of Iron which is Christs words. They can help call us to repentance and give us opportunities to feel the spirit. They also lead the church which is essential for helping further promote Gods kingdom and for priesthood ordinances to be done with the right authority. They also help prevent apostasy of doctrine. Changes question I will leave to others.

I will note, that it is written in the book of numbers in the bible that, —Would that all the people of the Lord were prophets! Would that the Lord might bestow His spirit on them all! — becoming that spiritually strong and receiving daily bread in other words.

Edited April 6, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

23 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I see. I misunderstood you. Certainly there are some who want change just for changes sake. That’s not my view. I want “more good” - to use Joseph’s definition of Mormon.
 

And yes, there needs to be a balance with constancy. We can’t run faster than we have strength. The branches can’t grow so fast they exceed the strength of the roots.
 

But we also don’t just wait for God to give more. That’s never how revelation comes. We must decide for ourselves what is good and then seek confirmation. That’s the model for individuals and the church as a whole. 

Agreed, Joseph Smith warned to “cling close to the bark of the tree, least reaching for the branched we fall”. We need to be content with sermons preaching the already established Gospel, and not always looking for something new. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 4/5/2022 at 5:26 PM, Buckeye said:

Constant improvement is part of our gospel.  “… We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”

I see the blessings my sons receive by administering priesthood ordinances. I desire my daughters to receive the same. I see the blessings that come to my hetero siblings through marriage and temple sealings. I desire my gay and lesbian cousins and friends to receive the same. 

To borrow Elder Uchtdorf’s metaphor, there is so much wonderful food available at the cruise banquet that we are not currently partaking of. 

Change is good, unless it is “change for the sake of change”. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

23 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

The prophets help us hold the rod of Iron which is Christs words. They can help call us to repentance and give us opportunities to feel the spirit. They also lead the church which is essential for helping further promote Gods kingdom and for priesthood ordinances to be done with the right authority. They also help prevent apostasy of doctrine. Changes I will lead to others.

I will note, that it is written in the book of numbers in the bible that, —Would that all the people of the Lord were prophets! Would that the Lord might bestow His spirit on them all! — becoming that spiritually strong and receiving daily bread in other words.

I agree 100%, we need Prophets, it is what makes us unique. We should head their words, only by doing so will God make us ready for continuing revelation. Also, we should all be Prophets, to guide our families, otherwise “we are the blind leading the blind”. If not we will all end up in the ditch, and lose our way!  

[MustardSeed]

Change is what facilitated the restoration to begin with it.  I always welcome change.

[The Nehor]

Why do we hope for something novel and spectacular (a spectacle)? Because we are human and humans like that sort of thing.

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/5/2022 at 2:22 PM, rockpond said:

I think it's the belief that new pronouncements are indicative of prophetic revelation.  And, as a people, we love prophetic revelation.

That said, I think we should also be happy when conference is reminder to work on the simple gospel principles that we already have, with nothing new.

Side note:  Didn't President Nelson (or someone) make a request to *not* cheer when new temples are announced?   

Who are you, and what have you done with the real rockpond?!   

 

[The Nehor]

On 4/5/2022 at 3:22 PM, rockpond said:

Side note:  Didn't President Nelson (or someone) make a request to *not* cheer when new temples are announced?   

Yes, sounds like they are going to have to make that announcement every time.