Jacob's Wrestle With An Angel

[rongo]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

Melchizedek as well, right?

Melchizedek and Salem (his city) were contemporaries of Abraham, though. Enoch was earlier (how much earlier depends on where one comes down on how literal the long life spans were or not  ). 

Some think that Melchizedek was Shem, in which case, he may have had a hybrid long life (life spans drop drastically after the Flood). I think Nibley was dead on in rejecting Melchizedek as Shem, because of D&C 84:14 (the wording doesn't make it sound like he was just one generation removed from Noah). 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

Melchizedek and Salem (his city) were contemporaries of Abraham, though. Enoch was earlier (how much earlier depends on where one comes down on how literal the long life spans were or not  ). 

Some think that Melchizedek was Shem, in which case, he may have had a hybrid long life (life spans drop drastically after the Flood). I think Nibley was dead on in rejecting Melchizedek as Shem, because of D&C 84:14 (the wording doesn't make it sound like he was just one generation removed from Noah). 

Melchizedek disappears from interacting with Abraham before Abraham's death, which some scholars have considered to be evidence that he maybe have already been translated during that time.

For example, Abraham has to send his servant back home (some say it could have been almost 1000 miles) to look for a wife for Isaac rather than searching for one in the city of Melchizedek, where there would have been plenty of believers to choose from.

[JLHPROF]

I don't think anyone is questioning whether a translated being could meet the criteria of Jacob's visitor.

I however don't think the content of the text supports the idea that it was anyone other than God.  Jacob seemed to believe it was God.  That limits the options as to who that personage was.

[longview]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't think anyone is questioning whether a translated being could meet the criteria of Jacob's visitor.

I however don't think the content of the text supports the idea that it was anyone other than God.  Jacob seemed to believe it was God.  That limits the options as to who that personage was.

Just as we know that Joseph Smith's First Vision account does not document everything that occurred and everything that was said on that early spring day of 1820, the OT account probably is missing a lot more stuff that went on with Jacob (plain and precious things were taken out).  More personalities could have been involved with Jacob, either serially or in bunches throughout the night.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, longview said:

Just as we know that Joseph Smith's First Vision account does not document everything that occurred and everything that was said on that early spring day of 1820, the OT account probably is missing a lot more stuff that went on with Jacob (plain and precious things were taken out).  More personalities could have been involved with Jacob, either serially or in bunches throughout the night.

True, but if we go that route our creativity knows no bounds.
I prefer to stick to the evidence in the text when drawing conclusions.

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

True, but if we go that route our creativity knows no bounds.
I prefer to stick to the evidence in the text when drawing conclusions.

I've been thinking long and hard about what the text actually says there, and the only line in the text that comes close to suggesting God himself might have literally been there is in verse 30:  "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."  

Here are a few of my thoughts about the evidence within the text itself:

First, if Jacob was literally in physical contact with God like that, do you really think God would lose a wrestling match with Jacob and need to ask to be released (verse 26)?   

Second, compare Jacob's story in Genesis 32:24-32 with the story of Manoah and his wife and their experience with the angel of the LORD in Judges 13:2-6, 15-22.  There are several interesting comparisons, but two are worth noting: 

1.  Both Jacob and Manoah ask to know the name of the person they are speaking to.  Compare the answers:

Gen 32:29  "And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?"

Judges 13:17-18:  "And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?   And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?"

The responses given to the question about their name in both accounts seem to show surprise at being asked the question (as if it were, "Don't you know better than that?"), and in Manoah's case he is told that the name is "secret".

2. Both Jacob and Manoah make statements about having seen God and remarking on their state of preservation (or fear of losing it), even after it is clear that Manoah recognizes that he was dealing with an angel of the LORD:

Gen 32:30  "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Judges 13:21-22:  "But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.  And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."

Can you see from this why I think Jacob's experience may have been with either a mortal messenger of God or an angel of God that is a translated being, having a physical body?

What is the evidence in the text that you find so compelling to support your view?

[nuclearfuels]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:27 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yahweh is a title (not a name) used by both God the Father and by God the Son

the degree to which your answers demonstrate how little I know about my own faith is stunning

mind blown.jfif

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/25/2022 at 7:38 PM, InCognitus said:

I've been thinking long and hard about what the text actually says there, and the only line in the text that comes close to suggesting God himself might have literally been there is in verse 30:  "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."  

Here are a few of my thoughts about the evidence within the text itself:

First, if Jacob was literally in physical contact with God like that, do you really think God would lose a wrestling match with Jacob and need to ask to be released (verse 26)?   

Or it is not a wrassling match at all and is actually a ritual being described in terms only the initiated can understand.  I like the way you come to grips with the actual text.

On 2/25/2022 at 7:38 PM, InCognitus said:

Second, compare Jacob's story in Genesis 32:24-32 with the story of Manoah and his wife and their experience with the angel of the LORD in Judges 13:2-6, 15-22.  There are several interesting comparisons, but two are worth noting: 

1.  Both Jacob and Manoah ask to know the name of the person they are speaking to.  Compare the answers:

Gen 32:29  "And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?"

Judges 13:17-18:  "And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?   And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?"

The responses given to the question about their name in both accounts seem to show surprise at being asked the question (as if it were, "Don't you know better than that?"), and in Manoah's case he is told that the name is "secret".

2. Both Jacob and Manoah make statements about having seen God and remarking on their state of preservation (or fear of losing it), even after it is clear that Manoah recognizes that he was dealing with an angel of the LORD:

Gen 32:30  "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Judges 13:21-22:  "But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.  And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."

Can you see from this why I think Jacob's experience may have been with either a mortal messenger of God or an angel of God that is a translated being, having a physical body?...................

This goes way beyond Sunday School and gets into the nitty gritty.  Excellent observations.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:19 AM, bluebell said:

Melchizedek disappears from interacting with Abraham before Abraham's death, which some scholars have considered to be evidence that he maybe have already been translated during that time.

For example, Abraham has to send his servant back home (some say it could have been almost 1000 miles) to look for a wife for Isaac rather than searching for one in the city of Melchizedek, where there would have been plenty of believers to choose from.

The distance from Salem (Jerusalem) to Haran is about 414 miles (665 km).

Some people claim that Melchizedek is another name/title for Shem.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:02 PM, sunstoned said:

This sounds like a OT made up story.  Sorry.  Judge me.

Well, at least you're having fun. 

[Durangout]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:36 PM, bluebell said:

That makes sense.

I think we can easily forget how vastly different the culture of a few thousand years ago in that area of the world was from ours.  We read stuff with our cultural understanding and think that it's the plainest way to read it, without seeing everything that we are adding to the text based on our personal understanding of the world and God.

Nibley was right.  This was clearly a covenantal / temple experience that Jacob had but is not easily understood by the uninitiated or casual observer.

I’ll just take the “dislocated hip” that gives people so much trouble (but shouldn’t) as an example.  What others have said about the “wrestling” being a spiritual struggle like Alma or Enos is correct.  Likewise each of us should have our own “struggle” with The Lord.  Now onto the “hip” itself:

Gen 32: 24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

²⁵ And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Notice something similar is happening in Gen 24

² And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:

³ And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:

However in the JST instead of thigh it says hand—that makes a lot more sense.

One other reference before I make my point:  Rev 19

¹⁶ And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

The reference to Jacob’s thigh like Abraham’s reference to his thigh really is a hidden description of a hand clasp in a covenantal setting.  In Jacob’s case it was associated with him meeting with either Diety or His authorized representative; receiving a new name; setting up a stone /altar as a place of worship; receiving an ascension vision and even seeing heaven.  How can this experience be anything other than Jacob’s endowment and not a literal wrestling match?

[Lemuel]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:37 PM, JLHPROF said:

Well I guess it could be Enoch.  Do we know anyone translated prior to Jacob's day?

However the name given the place by Jacob translates as meeting God face to face.  Peniel - face of God.

I'm sticking with the only member of the Godhead with a physical body at that time.

Are we sure Jesus didn't have a body before 0AD?  Can we find it in the scriptures?  What kind of finger did He need to touch Bro. of Jared's stones?

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, Lemuel said:

Are we sure Jesus didn't have a body before 0AD?  Can we find it in the scriptures?  What kind of finger did He need to touch Bro. of Jared's stones?

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

He had a spiritual body at that time which of course could touch physical objects.  It was the veil that was opened to the Bro of Jared so the he could see Christ’s spirit touch the stones.

 In vs 9 He says He SHALL (future tense) have a flesh and blood body.

[nuclearfuels]

On 2/28/2022 at 2:51 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

a ritual being described in terms only the initiated can understand

Dude - are you implying what I think you're implying? This was an ordinance similar to an ordinance that occurs in modern Temples?

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:39 AM, bluebell said:

Therefore, one of two possibilities regarding the identity of Jacob’s night visitor is that he was a translated being who had been an inhabitant of this earth, since “there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it” (D&C 130:5).

Thank you for sharing these.

So - God the Father during his mortality lived on this earth then?? Or He lived on an earth whose materials were gathered by the preisthood exercised by Jehovah and Michael when they organized the earth we're on from existing materials??

Or God the Father understandably plays by different rules and isn't realy described as an angel who ministers??

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thank you for sharing these.

So - God the Father during his mortality lived on this earth then?? Or He lived on an earth whose materials were gathered by the preisthood exercised by Jehovah and Michael when they organized the earth we're on from existing materials??

Or God the Father understandably plays by different rules and isn't really described as an angel who ministers??

Or, He just visits sometimes. 

He didn't have to "live on the earth" in order to visit for the First Vision, for example. It was a visit. 

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thank you for sharing these.

So - God the Father during his mortality lived on this earth then?? Or He lived on an earth whose materials were gathered by the preisthood exercised by Jehovah and Michael when they organized the earth we're on from existing materials??

Or God the Father understandably plays by different rules and isn't realy described as an angel who ministers??

I the second option.  He’s not an angel who ministers.  

[Dan McClellan]

On 2/23/2022 at 7:03 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Who did Jacob wrestle with?

I recently posted a video on TikTok about this question. In short, the story originally told of Jacob's wrestle with God themselves, and this tradition was later altered in Hosea 12:4 (5 in Hebrew) by the textual interpolation of the word מלאך, which means messenger or angel. Without that textual interpolation, the preposition becomes the word El, meaning "God" in Hebrew, meaning verse 4 begins with a perfect etiology for the name Israel: וישר אל, "And he strove with God."

https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7070478356181110062

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Dude - are you implying what I think you're implying? This was an ordinance similar to an ordinance that occurs in modern Temples?

Yes, of course.

[Lemuel]

17 hours ago, Durangout said:

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

He had a spiritual body at that time which of course could touch physical objects.  It was the veil that was opened to the Bro of Jared so the he could see Christ’s spirit touch the stones.

 In vs 9 He says He SHALL (future tense) have a flesh and blood body.

Good argument. Might He have had an immortal flesh and bone body before coming here?

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

Good argument. Might He have had an immortal flesh and bone body before coming here?

We don’t teach multiple mortal probations (though there was a variation with at least Adam and Eve having immortal bodies prior to the world being created rather than being given them during the creation and putting them aside in the past, I believe that has been rejected by leadership) and we do teach the only way to receive a physical body is to be born on earth…though we don’t explain how God formed Adam and Eve’s Garden of Eden bodies, were they formed the way we are formed or were they formed in another fashion, God having the ability to construct bodies in other ways just as he has the ability to form an earth (which did not have a father and mother earth that sexually produced a baby earth).  [Speculation by some being Mom and Dad ate food that was grown on earth which is where the “dust of the earth” used to form/organize their bodies through pregnancy came from, but another option could be something similar to 3D printing which some are speculating could be used to create organs for transplants…we are partway there already https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_printing ]

How do you suggest he came by a flesh and bone immortal body prior to birth here? 
 

added:  if given to him by God as God perhaps formed and gave them to Adam and Eve, why would Christ claim he was only spirit when seen by the brother of Jared?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Calm

[Durangout]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Dude - are you implying what I think you're implying? This was an ordinance similar to an ordinance that occurs in modern Temples?

 

Yes, Dude.

[rongo]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

. . .  and we do teach the only way to receive a physical body is to be born on earth…though we don’t explain how God formed Adam and Eve’s Garden of Eden bodies, were they formed the way we are formed or were they formed in another fashion?

Brigham Young taught that Adam and Eve were born of parents on another world and brought here, so there is at least one prophet who "explained" how we are to understand the creation:

---

"When you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale. When you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner, you are speaking idle worlds devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities where the Gods dwell. Mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given them to propagate their species, and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth" (Brigham Young, October 9, 1859. Journal of Discourses 7:285)

"Some of you may doubt the truth of what I now say . . . You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please—that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child" (Brigham Young, October 23, 1853. Journal of Discourses 2:6)

"Though we have it in history that our father Adam was made of the dust of this earth, and that he knew nothing about his God previous to being made here, yet it is not so; and when we learn the truth we shall see and understand that he helped to make this world, and was the chief manager in that operation. He was the person who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world, and brought a wife with him and stayed here. You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle" (Brigham Young, April 20, 1856. Journal of Discourses 3:319)

 

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, Lemuel said:

Good argument. Might He have had an immortal flesh and bone body before coming here?

That is a fair question and Nephi answers it for us:

1 Ne 11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Seems pretty clear to me that Jesus was a spirit before he came to earth.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Brigham Young taught that Adam and Eve were born of parents on another world and brought here, so there is at least one prophet who "explained" how we are to understand the creation:

That was the variation I was thinking of…