CV75 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said: Thank you! 🤗 Which definition would you like to begin with, so the meaning (and what do you mean by "meaning" -- implication, effect, significance, value, etc. ) can be discussed in context?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said: Thank you! 🤗 What is the meaning of “Authority”? Authority can be imagined or real. In an LDS context, it is typically used to refer to the power to act on behalf of God. Priesthood power. This is the primary claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings to bear against other churches -- other churches do not have authority to act on behalf of God. Now, of course, according to the D&C this does not exclude the priesthood found among the Jews (from the tribe of Levi), which is also a legitimate authority to act on behalf of God. However, that is a special case. 2
Fether Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said: Thank you! 🤗 When someone in power gives another person permission to use that power, that person had authority. Or when some organization of sorts gives permission to someone to act in a certain way. We can’t talk about authority without talking about power. Power is the ability to do something and authority is the permission to do it. If someone gives me permission to fly a jet, but I don’t know how, I can do nothing. Similarly, if I know how to fly a jet, but dont have permission to do so, I am also left doing nothing. We know God lives by laws and that it is because he lives by those laws that he has the power he does (Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21, Alma 42:13, Moroni 9:19, , Doctrine and Covenants 88:34, Doctrine and Covenants 82:10, Doctrine and Covenants 88:22) “God has all power because He is in perfect harmony with all law.”Doctrine and Covenants Institute Manual Enrichment G He is the ultimate authority because he has the ultimate power. He then gives us authority to use that power, however, we cannot utilize that power unless we are in perfect harmony with those same laws… which we cannot do, which leaves us restrained from that power. That is where grace comes in. Grace is what makes up the difference between where we are at and the power we need to accomplish the task God asks of us. 2
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 41 minutes ago, Fether said: “God has all power because He is in perfect harmony with all law.”Doctrine and Covenants Institute Manual Enrichment G Interesting statement. God's power comes from following law. That's how I understand it. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Interesting statement. God's power comes from following law. That's how I understand it. I am very interested in where you have heard that, because I firmly believe that but have not heard it from others. I believe that God voluntarily took it upon himself to obey the laws he created for us, and for himself, to be our immanent, embodied Father instead a transcendent cloud of omnipresence. Making your own law is called Self determination. And so he sets the stage for organizing matter and creating as all humans do, instead of ex nihilo creation. Ultimately the sacrifice of giving up transcendence and being embodied allows the atonement to happen; transcendent clouds of omnipresence don't die. Immanence is the real sacrifice Christ makes in the atonement, that is his "fall", and own sacrifice. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. It's a long story, but where did you hear that? Edited January 27, 2022 by mfbukowski
Bob Crockett Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 We use it legally. Power means, like, holding the Melchizedek Priesthood Authority means to serve as an Elders Quorum President. Not everbody does.
Fether Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I believe that God voluntarily took it upon himself to obey the laws he created for us, and for himself, to be our immanent, embodied Father instead a transcendent cloud of omnipresence. Making your own law is called Self determination. I have always been, and still am, under the impression that the law came before God and it was the law that allowed God to be how he is. Obeying law gives an outcome. For example: - When I plant seeds and nourish it, food comes up - When I put wings on a car and propel it 300 mph down a runway, it flies. - When I run two sticks together really fast, it creates heat and fire appears - When I obey the principle of the word of wisdom, I have more power to move about freely and lift heavy objects - When I choose to have faith and hope, I have more power to create good things in my life - When I choose to have charity and obey the principles of leadership as taught by the church, I have more power to influence others These are all small examples of how obeying law creates something new and expands one’s ability. I imagine this is how God grew to where he is today. Line upon line, precept upon precept Edited January 27, 2022 by Fether 2
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 27, 2022 Author Posted January 27, 2022 6 hours ago, CV75 said: Which definition would you like to begin with, so the meaning (and what do you mean by "meaning" -- implication, effect, significance, value, etc. ) can be discussed in context? I had everything and nothing in mind so I enjoy whatever people want to talk about and I just want to kinda update my context as I go, mostly to myself
CV75 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 18 minutes ago, Alexi Nakatology said: I had everything and nothing in mind so I enjoy whatever people want to talk about and I just want to kinda update my context as I go, mostly to myself OK here's a start, maybe: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/authority?lang=eng
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 27, 2022 Author Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) I once asked some missionaries to help me remember the BoM timeline during a visit and a question occurred to me that I didn’t feel I got a great answer for, not sure I ever will… My question was what did Jesus in the BoM do or say that stood out to them as distinct from the Jesus of the NT? And so just now, I was reading a bit of the enrichment manual link Fether posted and found 3 Nephi 15:9 which I find interesting in the context of this thread Jesus tells the Nephites “I am the law” and am curious if anyone has any thoughts for this thread about that Edited January 27, 2022 by Alexi Nakatology
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 27, 2022 Author Posted January 27, 2022 15 minutes ago, CV75 said: OK here's a start, maybe: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/authority?lang=eng Thank you.
CV75 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 21 minutes ago, Alexi Nakatology said: I once asked some missionaries to help me remember the BoM timeline during a visit and a question occurred to me that I didn’t feel I got a great answer for, not sure I ever will… My question was what did Jesus in the BoM do or say that stood out to them as distinct from the Jesus of the NT? And so just now, I was reading a bit of the enrichment manual link Fether posted and found 3 Nephi 15:9 which I find interesting in the context of this thread Jesus tells the Nephites “I am the law” and am curious if anyone has any thoughts for this thread about that I have a sense that at some point, Jesus authored the Sermon the Mount as a script which is why it is in the form that it is found in both the New Testament and (slightly updated for) The Book of Mormon. Maybe to serve as the first memorized discussion for missionaries! A couple of things that stand out are: His discussion of the lost sheep, the New Jerusalem, sharing scripture not had among the Lehites, the clear and concise articulation of His gospel and doctrine (in chapters 11 and 12), His supervision the ministering of angels, the healing session of so many people at once, the naming of His Church, so many more. A good exercise (it’s only 18 chapters, 11 – 28) is to pick them out of the text.
James 1 5 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) This was one of the first things I wanted to learn more about when I joined the Church in 1989. An analogy that clicked for me is power of attorney. And understanding that authority involves being empowered to do what someone is authorized to do. I am authorized to do what I have been given the authority to do. I have some authority to do some things that people in the local government where I live have authorized me to do, and God has authorized me to do particular things for him in his name. And thus I am able to do those things by the authority I have been given. God has not authorized me to do everything he is able to do, and local governments haven't given me carte blanche either. I can use this authority only as I have been instructed, within limited parameters. I suppose I will always operate only in limited parameters. What God can give he can also take away. Edited January 27, 2022 by James 1 5
James 1 5 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 3 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said: I once asked some missionaries to help me remember the BoM timeline during a visit and a question occurred to me that I didn’t feel I got a great answer for, not sure I ever will… My question was what did Jesus in the BoM do or say that stood out to them as distinct from the Jesus of the NT? And so just now, I was reading a bit of the enrichment manual link Fether posted and found 3 Nephi 15:9 which I find interesting in the context of this thread Jesus tells the Nephites “I am the law” and am curious if anyone has any thoughts for this thread about that Think of a country western show you have seen, with cowboys and horses and a Sheriff and Marshal who run the territory. Then expand that to the governor of the territory, and a President over every state in the country. Have you ever heard one of those authorities of the law refer to himself as the law? Where do you see Jesus fitting in within that scenario? Here comes the law. And here comes the judge.
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Fether said: I have always been, and still am, under the impression that the law came before God and it was the law that allowed God to be how he is. Obeying law gives an outcome. For example: - When I plant seeds and nourish it, food comes up - When I put wings on a car and propel it 300 mph down a runway, it flies. - When I run two sticks together really fast, it creates heat and fire appears - When I obey the principle of the word of wisdom, I have more power to move about freely and lift heavy objects - When I choose to have faith and hope, I have more power to create good things in my life - When I choose to have charity and obey the principles of leadership as taught by the church, I have more power to influence others These are all small examples of how obeying law creates something new and expands one’s ability. I imagine this is how God grew to where he is today. Line upon line, precept upon precept Of course I agree. But you can make your own laws that are perhaps more rigorous than existing law. Both ideas are compatible. No conflict When you go on a diet you decide NOT to eat chocolate cake. That is an additional extra law you make for yourself. Because you decide not to eat chocolate doesn't mean that there were no other pre-existing laws. Bad argument. But I believe that God organized all laws, and that there were no pre existing laws in his kingdom Edited January 28, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ... I believe that God organized all laws, and that there were no pre existing laws in his kingdom Sounds like you may believe God, our Father, has his own independent kingdom that is his and nobody else's. I believe his kingdom is also the kingdom of his Father and all of his Father's fathers, however great and grand they may be in the celestial realms. If I am correct that would mean his laws are also the laws of all of his Fathers of celestial glory, with never a beginning to the whole thing. That is likely the hardest part for some people to accept as truth. That there have always been people who are the kind of being God is and they {we} have always had law. edited to expand on this idea. Thinking about what it would mean if there have always been people. Good and evil people. People of various degrees of intelligence. Some as intelligent as we can become, and some not as intelligent. With the most intelligent trying to help the less intelligent become more intelligent. Teaching by example as well as by instruction. With never a beginning to any of this, just as there never will be an end. Edited January 28, 2022 by James 1 5
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 28, 2022 Author Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) I’ll get to reading 3rd Nephi soon enough but it does stand out to me that Jesus saying “I am the law” is a different emphasis than the relational emphasis of the NT So I’m reading two things in this thread, there is authority as a verb or universal pattern, something happening cosmically all the time in all contexts involving powers and laws, the sense that can be “followed”… and within that, authority as a noun, something more like a claim (or experience) of being given privilege to have special control within or over the broader verb sense of authority in various context, to be the “followed” I can follow the authority (the power and laws) of my garden to grow food or I can be chosen as a gardener to be followed by other gardeners… in the cosmic, less explicable sense, being gardened for gardening 🤔 Edited January 28, 2022 by Alexi Nakatology
smac97 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 20 hours ago, CV75 said: OK here's a start, maybe: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/authority?lang=eng And another: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Authority Thanks, -Smac
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 28, 2022 Author Posted January 28, 2022 2 hours ago, smac97 said: And another: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Authority Thanks, -Smac That’s a great reference, thank you!
CV75 Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said: I’ll get to reading 3rd Nephi soon enough but it does stand out to me that Jesus saying “I am the law” is a different emphasis than the relational emphasis of the NT So I’m reading two things in this thread, there is authority as a verb or universal pattern, something happening cosmically all the time in all contexts involving powers and laws, the sense that can be “followed”… and within that, authority as a noun, something more like a claim (or experience) of being given privilege to have special control within or over the broader verb sense of authority in various context, to be the “followed” I can follow the authority (the power and laws) of my garden to grow food or I can be chosen as a gardener to be followed by other gardeners… in the cosmic, less explicable sense, being gardened for gardening 🤔 What you are saying here seems to resonate with Alma 13. You'll have to read the whole chapter, but here's a snippet: 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God aordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people. 2 And those priests were ordained after the aorder of his Son, in a bmanner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption. 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being acalled and bprepared from the cfoundation of the world according to the dforeknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to echoose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great ffaith, are gcalled with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such. 4 And thus they have been acalled to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and bblindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great cprivilege as their brethren. 5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the asame standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared— 6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his arest— 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being awithout beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from beternity to all eternity, according to his cforeknowledge of all things— 8 Now they were aordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end— 9 Thus they become ahigh priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of bgrace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen. ETA: The connection in 3 Nephi 15: 9 - 12 between Jesus being the law and the light, and His disciples being "a -- not the -- light" is that He called and chose them (3 Nephi 11:21, 22; 12:1), and ordained them (3 Nephi 18:5; see also Alma 13). They were commanded to follow Him, the Law, in order to serve in the capacity of being "a light" to the people. Jesus the Light illuminates Jesus the Law so people can see it; His disciples as "a light" illuminate Jesus the Law. In my opinion, since many things testify of Christ or point to Him, there are many people and ways that His light shines to point people toward Him and His Law (Sermon on the Mount, basically, and the associated covenants). But only a relatively few are called, chosen and ordained, and this is the formal authority component which entails the various keys to gather His children into the organized body of Israel, which is His Church, Zion / New Jerusalem, and eventually the Church of the Firstborn. Edited January 29, 2022 by CV75
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 29, 2022 Author Posted January 29, 2022 57 minutes ago, CV75 said: What you are saying here seems to resonate with Alma 13. You'll have to read the whole chapter, but here's a snippet: 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God aordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people. 2 And those priests were ordained after the aorder of his Son, in a bmanner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption. 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being acalled and bprepared from the cfoundation of the world according to the dforeknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to echoose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great ffaith, are gcalled with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such. 4 And thus they have been acalled to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and bblindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great cprivilege as their brethren. 5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the asame standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared— 6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his arest— 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being awithout beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from beternity to all eternity, according to his cforeknowledge of all things— 8 Now they were aordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end— 9 Thus they become ahigh priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of bgrace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen. ETA: The connection in 3 Nephi 15: 9 - 12 between Jesus being the law and the light, and His disciples being "a -- not the -- light" is that He called and chose them (3 Nephi 11:21, 22; 12:1), and ordained them (3 Nephi 18:5; see also Alma 13). They were commanded to follow Him, the Law, in order to serve in the capacity of being "a light" to the people. Jesus the Light illuminates Jesus the Law so people can see it; His disciples as "a light" illuminate Jesus the Law. In my opinion, since many things testify of Christ or point to Him, there are many people and ways that His light shines to point people toward Him and His Law (Sermon on the Mount, basically, and the associated covenants). But only a relatively few are called, chosen and ordained, and this is the formal authority component which entails the various keys to gather His children into the organized body of Israel, which is His Church, Zion / New Jerusalem, and eventually the Church of the Firstborn. Woah, okay, thank you 🙏 I’ve gotten to “cite your minds forward” 😌
Alexi Nakatology Posted January 29, 2022 Author Posted January 29, 2022 Okay so number one question is… what did you specifically think resonated??
CV75 Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 12 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said: Okay so number one question is… what did you specifically think resonated?? The “garden and the gardener” is analogous to the covenants (wherein people learn to be disciples) and the disciples authorized to bring these covenants to others. Garden = covenants and gardener = chosen servant of God. You can follow the authority (the power and laws – the covenants) of your garden to grow food or you can be chosen as a gardener to be followed (I prefer “heeded” as the Lord uses in 3 Nephi 12:1) by other gardeners. Actually, you can do both – garden and be chosen to show others to garden. Similarly, you can keep the covenants of the Church/Israel/Zion to bring forth good fruit or you can be chosen by the Lord to be a servant to bring discipleship to other saints. Actually, you can do both – keep the covenants and show others to keep them. The master gardener chooses you to be a gardener to show others how to garden. The Lord chooses you to be a servant to show others the covenant path.
2BizE Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 What authority was used by Alma in the BoM to baptize people in the waters of Mormon?
Recommended Posts