Calm Posted December 30, 2021 Posted December 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Christ within us" is a concept I don't recall seeing taught within Mormonism We have the “Spirit of Christ”. I would be interested to see how analogous it is.
Olmec Donald Posted December 31, 2021 Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Calm said: We have the “Spirit of Christ”. I would be interested to see how analogous it is. Do you mean "the Light of Christ"? If not, could you elaborate on what you mean by "the Spirit of Christ"? Edited December 31, 2021 by Olmec Donald
Calm Posted December 31, 2021 Posted December 31, 2021 28 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said: Do you mean "the Light of Christ"? If not, could you elaborate on what you mean by "the Spirit of Christ"? Yes. Brain fog day, but feeling mellow so not complaining.
Orthodox Christian Posted December 31, 2021 Author Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Thank you. I consulted the oracle (Google) and found multiple applicable scriptures from the 15th chapter of John and from various epistles of Paul. I'm still interested in your understanding of the concept of "Christ within us", and/or the Orthodox Church's teachings on the subject, IF you feel like it. But no hurry! Good morning, so did I, makes life easy doesn't it? Well in this case anyway. Good exercise for me though. So, let's see. I will post the references I found. BTW, have you read John Chs 15-17, beautiful chapters about union between Christ and the Father and between them and us, anyway: 1 John 4 12-15 Revelation 3 20-21 John 15 4-8 John 14 20 John 14 23 2 Corinthians 13 5 Romans 8-10 Galations 1 15-16 Galations 2 20 Galations 4 19 Ephesians 3 17 Clossians 1 27 As for the Orthodox belief in the above, well it isn't exclusively Orthodox, it is part of the foundational teachings of Christianity from the beginning. Therefore it is common to many branches of the Christian faith, but as you can see it is scriptural. I do think though that Orthodox mysticism takes it to another level. My concept, is that of the Church. That through repentence and ascetic practice such as deep prayer, hesychasm, nepsis etc we eventually, through God's grace, move over from our centre, and the Lord is given, through our cooperation with Him, space to move in. Sadly we fall, we want to take ourselves back, worldliness is very comfortable. But this walk, which is naturally difficult for us, is a continuum, and leads to unity, which is why lifelong practice of repentence and watchfulness is so necessary. He stands at the door of our hearts and knocks, and initially we only admit him through a crack, eventually through prayer, and our efforts to be mindful of him at all times, the door is opened wider and wider. This is our Cross which we take up daily, and it is the work that Christ completes within us through His Spirit. Glory to God for all things! Hebrews 12 2 Phillipians 1 16 There, I think I am done editing, Happy New Year! Edited December 31, 2021 by Orthodox Christian 1
poptart Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) On 12/27/2021 at 6:33 PM, Calm said: I think like any good parent God appreciates people’s feelings, but he doesn’t let them change the rules where that would invalidate the results. I think he is willing to adapt when it works, such as not requiring those who have never been taught the Laws to be judged by them, but rather they are judged by the law they have known, which means imo understood. True. It's hard for me to understand those things, never really had them but I see your point. I stand by one old opinion though, some people just don't get it and would benefit from a swift, kick in the backside from God. On 12/30/2021 at 3:40 AM, Orthodox Christian said: I love this nutshell, albeit from a very legalistic pov, I still like its straight to the point approach. What's wrong with legalistic? Isn't the western church in general that way? On 12/30/2021 at 6:57 AM, The Nehor said: Done, done, and awwwww, but I am having fun….. Edited January 3, 2022 by poptart
Orthodox Christian Posted January 3, 2022 Author Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, poptart said: What's wrong with legalistic? Isn't the western church in general that way? Yes. But the Eastern Church, not so much.
sunstoned Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 On 12/29/2021 at 7:53 AM, Stargazer said: Amazing Grace! I find it hard listening to this hymn without getting all teary-eyed. I have always loved this song. I wish they would put it in the Hymnal.
poptart Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 12 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: Yes. But the Eastern Church, not so much. I've heard interesting things about the Eastern Church, namely they're more mysticism based. Was it the distance from the W.Church that allowed them to hold onto it? Also, what, if any traditions from Nestorian Christianity survived? I know little of the Orthodox church but am quite open to learning more. Wasn't Martin Luther also a fan of the Eastern Church?
StandForever Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 On 12/23/2021 at 3:34 PM, Calm said: Joseph Smith summarized key points in our faith when asked what the Gospel was about. Repentance is mentioned in the fourth one: We talk about repentance a lot, though in my experience it is more focused on the positive aspects of wanting to change to be better at following God.*** Repentance is the tool that helps us repair the damage we do ourselves and our relationship with God and others. Other members may have had a different experience as some teachers and leaders may be more negative in their approach unlike my family and general experience…for which I am grateful as I look on repentance as an opportunity that brings joy more than an obligation. (I see commandments as God telling us what choices will bring us the most happiness overtime.) It is often taught as the R’s, the number and names vary a bit. The first three though are almost always the same. First recognition of the sin as a sin, then remorse, restitution as possible, relating (confession as needed, I don’t like this label, but can’t remember the R word I prefer , may change it when I remember), reformation (we need to not just stop our behaviour but replace it with good), resolution (moving on with life so to speak so we don’t get trapped by obsessing over something we have hopefully changed with the help of God)…I like to add reconciliation in there either before or after resolution with both God and those we have wounded by our sins and mistakes. But I prefer a more straightforward discussion such as this linked below as I don’t think it is all that hard to remember what we need to do to repent once we get to a sincere remorse, of course we will want to restore to others what we have taken or otherwise help them heal, for example. And we will desire to have back what we lost in our relationships as often that loss is why we recognize the sin and feel remorse in the first place. Unfortunately if we have wounded others, perhaps deeply, the last thing they may want is anything to do with us. We made need to work for years to truly restore what was lost and there are many things we won’t be able to as once faith is lost in us, trust can be very difficult to restore again and it may never actually happen. Impatience is not a part of repentance even if eagerness should be, but also persistence. If we think of repentance as an easy fix because God is loving and generous to us, we need to think again because it just isn’t God we need to pay attention to in our repentance. We need to realize just because we want to move forward with healing and are ready for it ourselves with God’s help, those we have hurt need to heal in their own time. I think one thing our church community does not that well is expecting forgiveness to come too easily to those who are hurt as we are taught by Christ to forgive and by forgiving we can heal through the Spirit, but too often we act like forgetting someone has sinned against us is all that is needed and in fact are treated as if we are doing wrong is we aren’t ready…and forgiveness definitely isn’t forgetting when dealing with mortals, especially if the sinner does not actually try to restore as much as they can to us. Truly sincere repentance, that deserves our best efforts to try and forgive but first we have to right to take the time and space we need to heal or we can’t truly forgive any more than the sinner will truly repent if they think they can skip the restitution part if they are forgiven. This part of repentance could be a major discussion in my opinion. Sometimes the approach to restitution and reconciliation is overly simplistic in the Church (not the Gospel), imo. Steps: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng Also: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/the-divine-gift-of-repentance?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2003/10/repentance-and-change?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/10/confession-and-forsaking-elements-of-genuine-repentance?lang=eng ***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/04/repentance-a-blessing-of-membership?lang=eng I agree with "First recognition of the sin as a sin...." As a student of the Bible, I believe that this is the reason that Jesus is the Savior: He saves us from our sins and their consequence, which is death. If we don't recognize our fallen nature, we can't comprehend the need for a Savior. Furthermore, Jesus taught us to pray: "And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors." The implication is that we shouldn't expect to be forgiven if we are unable to forgive others.
Stargazer Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 54 minutes ago, StandForever said: Furthermore, Jesus taught us to pray: "And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors." The implication is that we shouldn't expect to be forgiven if we are unable to forgive others. Absolutely true.
StandForever Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 I may have missed it, but did anyone quote this scripture on this topic of repentance yet? In response to a question from the Pharisees, Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32) Jesus makes two statements here: 1. People who aren't sinners don't need a Savior. Don't overlook that Jesus used all kinds of figures of speech. In this case, He is using sarcasm. The Bible states over and over in both the Old and New Testaments that all people are sinners. The point that He is making through sarcasm is that anyone who thinks that he is perfect can receive no benefit from a Savior. You cannot receive the benefit of the atonement if you don't seek it. 2. Jesus did not come to save self-righteous people. He only came to save sinners. In other words, if you are not a sinner, you can't be a Christian. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9) This doesn't mean that we should go on sinning following repentance. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John3:6)
Orthodox Christian Posted January 4, 2022 Author Posted January 4, 2022 11 hours ago, poptart said: I've heard interesting things about the Eastern Church, namely they're more mysticism based. Was it the distance from the W.Church that allowed them to hold onto it? Also, what, if any traditions from Nestorian Christianity survived? I know little of the Orthodox church but am quite open to learning more. Wasn't Martin Luther also a fan of the Eastern Church? Hi Poptart, Happy New Year. The Orthodox faith has a very strong mystical tradition. In fact there is a whole mountain in Greece, Mount Athos which has hundreds of monasteries there. The mystical tradition which is very much part of ascetical practice is very much alive and well there. Before the schism from the Western or Latin Church, the Christian church in the East and West was united and monasticism flourished throughout. St Anthony the Great was the father of monasticism in the East and St Benedict was the same in the West, but this was before the split. So monasticism was common in the East and West, however, I am not sure that monastic spirituality has continued the same. As for Martin Luther, I am not sure on that one.
StandForever Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: Hi Poptart, Happy New Year. The Orthodox faith has a very strong mystical tradition. In fact there is a whole mountain in Greece, Mount Athos which has hundreds of monasteries there. The mystical tradition which is very much part of ascetical practice is very much alive and well there. Before the schism from the Western or Latin Church, the Christian church in the East and West was united and monasticism flourished throughout. St Anthony the Great was the father of monasticism in the East and St Benedict was the same in the West, but this was before the split. So monasticism was common in the East and West, however, I am not sure that monastic spirituality has continued the same. As for Martin Luther, I am not sure on that one. When I was teaching an adult education class at church, one of the members of the class regularly brought along her elderly father who was from Greece and a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. He brought with him each day his Greek Bible. He was the most helpful participant that I have ever had in a class because his Bible contained the Septuagint for the Old Testament, the original translation of the Bible. And, more importantly, the Greek New Testament, which is the original untranslated New Testament containing the very words used by the original writers. He was able to provide a level of insight and understanding that those of who need to study the Bible through the filter of translation don't have!
poptart Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: Hi Poptart, Happy New Year. The Orthodox faith has a very strong mystical tradition. In fact there is a whole mountain in Greece, Mount Athos which has hundreds of monasteries there. The mystical tradition which is very much part of ascetical practice is very much alive and well there. Before the schism from the Western or Latin Church, the Christian church in the East and West was united and monasticism flourished throughout. St Anthony the Great was the father of monasticism in the East and St Benedict was the same in the West, but this was before the split. So monasticism was common in the East and West, however, I am not sure that monastic spirituality has continued the same. As for Martin Luther, I am not sure on that one. Does it have any hermetic elements or does the mysticism continue on as it did post council of Nicaea i.e the heresies they removed? Ohh, Mt. Athos, buddy of mine wants to go there, he's said it's an amazing place. Greece period is nice, him and his GF were eating lunch someplace (Athens maybe? No idea...). The shopkeep had to step out, something church related, he left him the keys and left for 30 minutes or so. You'd never see that here, at least as the USA is now. I love Orthodox communities, debated going to a Greek Festival sometime just for the food. That's the other bonus Orthodox get from me, the food lol. Mediterranean food is so healthy and tasty, for me it's right behind Asian food. Also the families, they have the qualities I really like minus the horrid consumerist, entitled mentality I see from a lot of the typical American suburbanite households. I know that's a stereotype, just my opinion/observation. That's interesting, one of my Rosaries has the St Benedict medal on it, is he still revered in the Eastern Church as he is in the west? Book you may enjoy, the Benedict option. It praises the monastic system to a big degree. Know much about some of the Orthodox communities in Alaska? St. Johns in Wasilla looks amazing, that and the pilgrimige they have looks neat. BTW, the biggest selling point the Orthodox have? They were the kindest to the Natives. Unlike your mainland/lower 48 Protestants who were racist and just plain inhuman to them, you guys were kind, the spirit houses the natives use is such a Christian way to integrate their culture. I've never seen anything down here that accepting nor tolerant except from the Mormons and some Catholics. With Martin Luther I heard stories growing up, supposedly he made friends with the Ethiopian/Coptic Orthodox, there's another rabbit hole reading wise... 1 hour ago, StandForever said: When I was teaching an adult education class at church, one of the members of the class regularly brought along her elderly father who was from Greece and a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. He brought with him each day his Greek Bible. He was the most helpful participant that I have ever had in a class because his Bible contained the Septuagint for the Old Testament, the original translation of the Bible. And, more importantly, the Greek New Testament, which is the original untranslated New Testament containing the very words used by the original writers. He was able to provide a level of insight and understanding that those of who need to study the Bible through the filter of translation don't have! Did it look like this? This is the one I have, it's beautiful. Edited January 4, 2022 by poptart
Orthodox Christian Posted January 4, 2022 Author Posted January 4, 2022 9 minutes ago, poptart said: Does it have any hermetic elements or does the mysticism continue on as it did post council of Nicaea i.e the heresies they removed? Ohh, Mt. Athos, buddy of mine wants to go there, he's said it's an amazing place. Greece period is nice, him and his GF were eating lunch someplace (Athens maybe? No idea...). The shopkeep had to step out, something church related, he left him the keys and left for 30 minutes or so. You'd never see that here, at least as the USA is now. I love Orthodox communities, debated going to a Greek Festival sometime just for the food. That's the other bonus Orthodox get from me, the food lol. Mediterranean food is so healthy and tasty, for me it's right behind Asian food. Also the families, they have the qualities I really like minus the horrid consumerist, entitled mentality I see from a lot of the typical American suburbanite households. I know that's a stereotype, just my opinion/observation. That's interesting, one of my Rosaries has the St Benedict medal on it, is he still revered in the Eastern Church as he is in the west? Book you may enjoy, the Benedict option. It praises the monastic system to a big degree. Know much about some of the Orthodox communities in Alaska? St. Johns in Wasilla looks amazing, that and the pilgrimige they have looks neat. BTW, the biggest selling point the Orthodox have? They were the kindest to the Natives. Unlike your mainland/lower 48 Protestants who were racist and just plain inhuman to them, you guys were kind, the spirit houses the natives use is such a Christian way to integrate their culture. I've never seen anything down here that accepting nor tolerant except from the Mormons and some Catholics. With Martin Luther I heard stories growing up, supposedly he made friends with the Ethiopian/Coptic Orthodox, there's another rabbit hole reading wise... Did it look like this? This is the one I have, it's beautiful. That looks like my Orthodox study Bible. The OT is also a Septuagint translation. Slow down, I can't keep up with your questions😕 Be back in a little while 🙂 1
Orthodox Christian Posted January 4, 2022 Author Posted January 4, 2022 2 hours ago, StandForever said: When I was teaching an adult education class at church, one of the members of the class regularly brought along her elderly father who was from Greece and a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. He brought with him each day his Greek Bible. He was the most helpful participant that I have ever had in a class because his Bible contained the Septuagint for the Old Testament, the original translation of the Bible. And, more importantly, the Greek New Testament, which is the original untranslated New Testament containing the very words used by the original writers. He was able to provide a level of insight and understanding that those of who need to study the Bible through the filter of translation don't have! What a lovely post. I am sure that gentleman would be very pleased that he was able to contribute.
poptart Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said: That looks like my Orthodox study Bible. The OT is also a Septuagint translation. Slow down, I can't keep up with your questions😕 Be back in a little while 🙂 I type fast, sorry my bad...
Orthodox Christian Posted January 5, 2022 Author Posted January 5, 2022 On 1/4/2022 at 5:24 PM, Orthodox Christian said: That looks like my Orthodox study Bible. The OT is also a Septuagint translation. Slow down, I can't keep up with your questions😕 Be back in a little while 🙂 Ok so monasteries. I think there are about 15 in the US. Perhaps your friend might like to visit one of these before going off to Greece, as lovely as it is. It is possible to stay at some of them, hospitality being very important in the monastic tradition. A skete us a monastery of cells around a central church, so they are solitaries except at times of prayer and liturgy. I don't know if there are hermits like St Seraphim of Sarov at the present time. But many of the saints of Orthodoxy have sought seclusion and retreating to the desert, at least in spirit, if not the actual desert like the Fathers. 1
Orthodox Christian Posted January 5, 2022 Author Posted January 5, 2022 On 1/4/2022 at 5:24 PM, Orthodox Christian said: That's interesting, one of my Rosaries has the St Benedict medal on it, is he still revered in the Eastern Church as he is in the west He is a saint in the East also. I have read the Benedict option, I think for a community to work, it has to be one of like minded people, that is with a shared theology, otherwise factions can develop and church teachings can become watered down. 1
Orthodox Christian Posted January 5, 2022 Author Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said: Ok so monasteries. I think there are about 15 in the US. Perhaps your friend might like to visit one of these before going off to Greece, as lovely as it is. It is possible to stay at some of them, hospitality being very important in the monastic tradition. A skete us a monastery of cells around a central church, so they are solitaries except at times of prayer and liturgy. I don't know if there are hermits like St Seraphim of Sarov at the present time. But many of the saints of Orthodoxy have sought seclusion and retreating to the desert, at least in spirit, if not the actual desert like the Fathers. Sorry I added this twice, I can't seem to delete it
Chum Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said: Sorry I added this twice, I can't seem to delete it You can only edit. We usually delete everything and put in a . or something.
Orthodox Christian Posted January 5, 2022 Author Posted January 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Chum said: You can only edit. We usually delete everything and put in a . or something. Thank you, I am a tech dyslexic. No offence to anyone who suffers with dyslexia, but tech stuff seems difficult for me to comprehend.
Chum Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said: Thank you, I am a tech dyslexic. Welcome to the bluc. 1
Orthodox Christian Posted January 7, 2022 Author Posted January 7, 2022 On 12/30/2021 at 8:47 PM, Olmec Donald said: went to Roman Catholic schools for a while and now in retrospect I see the repetition of particular memorized prayers as perhaps a way of reprogramming the subconscious mind (among other things) In Orthodoxy we also use memorised prayers and prayers in our prayer books. Sometimes these prayers have the exact words that we need at that moment, but turning to these prayers daily lift our hearts and minds to God. From there we can be led into our own heartfelt prayer, in our own words, and containing our own thoughts, supplications and intercessions. So repetitious prayer has value, and yes, the sheer influence of this daily repetion, because to pray is the Will of God, helps us toward that change of heart, mind and attitude that is repentence. Ths Psalm performed in Aramaic during Pope Francis' visit to Georgia 2
Orthodox Christian Posted January 7, 2022 Author Posted January 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said: In Orthodoxy we also use memorised prayers and prayers in our prayer books. Sometimes these prayers have the exact words that we need at that moment, but turning to these prayers daily lift our hearts and minds to God. From there we can be led into our own heartfelt prayer, in our own words, and containing our own thoughts, supplications and intercessions. So repetitious prayer has value, and yes, the sheer influence of this daily repetion, because to pray is the Will of God, helps us toward that change of heart, mind and attitude that is repentence. Ths Psalm performed in Aramaic during Pope Francis' visit to Georgia 28 B · 1 download Sorry about my effort to upload this very Orthodox prayer, I don't think it worked, but it can be viewed on You Tube. I find it very moving.
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