Work for the Dead

[nuclearfuels]

My grandmother had two twin boys that were stillborn. When my father was young his little brother died from Scarlet Fever. When he grew up he asked people from many churches where his brother was. Some said he was in hell since he hadn’t been baptized. Eventually my Dad found the missionaries and was taught about missionary work in the Spirit World and he was baptized.

 

A few months ago my uncle passed away. At his funeral his friends shared that my uncle was concerned that he wasn’t ready to meet his Maker – because of what he had been ordered to do in Vietnam. My Dad and I didn’t know he served there. His friends shared that my uncle had worked with an intelligence agency and was ordered not to discuss it – he also didn’t like to discuss it. I had a strong impression at his funeral that those he fought against in Vietnam would welcome him with open arms. My uncle had a son who passed away when he was a teenager and a few weeks before my uncle passed away, my Dad's cousin passed away. I believe his son and my Dad's cousin welcomed my uncle with open arms.

 

Over the summer my mission president passed away. He and I were in the same ward when he was serving as Temple President. At his funeral his son shared that when his father was called to serve as the stake president, the General Authority told him" "There are many more brothers I interviewed who are more qualified than you - more experienced, more financially stable, but the Lord wants you to serve. I figure that's because you have the greatest capacity to love."

 

I testify the Savior organized missionary work in the Spirit World and wants all of His children to hear the gospel and how families can be eternal.

 

I also think that missinoary work there is much like missionary work here: organized per branch, ward, stake, mission with missinoaries, DL's, ZL's, AP's, mission presidents, etc.

[Chum]

38 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I testify the Savior organized missionary work in the Spirit World and wants all of His children to hear the gospel and how families can be eternal.

Your entire post is a great testimony. Thank you for sharing it. I probably need the reminder that FH work is more than piecing together puzzles.

The bit about your dad never knowing his brother was deployed in Vietnam - that was really odd until you explained he worked for the IC. I appreciate the blank being filled in.

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Some said he was in hell since he hadn’t been baptized.

I have heard this same illustration given at a number of LDS funerals. Would you mind sharing with us who the "some" were? Of what faith group? My understanding of every group that I know about is that they entrust the salvation of infants to the mercy of a merciful God. This includes faith groups from Catholic to the most fundamentalist Protestants. It is a terrible thing to say to a person who has loved and lost a tiny loved one. Did your father ever share with you who told him that, and from what faith they were? Thanks so much. As one specific nobody, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor LDS, I have confidence in the mercy of a loving Savior, and of a merciful and just decision at the final judgment when all such decisions about eternal destiny will be made and revealed. I am glad your dad found peace and a similar confidence in the LDS church.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Navidad

[Chum]

26 minutes ago, Navidad said:

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

When my father was young his little brother died from Scarlet Fever. Some said he was in hell since he hadn’t been baptized.

I have heard this same illustration given at a number of LDS funerals. Would you mind sharing with us who the "some" were? Of what faith group? My understanding of every group that I know about is that they entrust the salvation of infants to the mercy of a merciful God.

I can't recall any baptizing faiths with an explicit doctrine of Hell-bound infants - but past Baptist and Catholic, my understanding is slight.

That said, I've heard individuals make the broad claim that everyone who wasn't saved (or possibly baptized) was destined for Hell, without exception. The implication seemed to include infants, the ignorant and other faiths. What faith did those individuals belong to? I didn't ever ask, likely because the message felt more confrontational than welcoming. Had I asked and drilled down into their doctrine, we may have discovered that their understanding was incomplete.

[webbles]

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I have heard this same illustration given at a number of LDS funerals. Would you mind sharing with us who the "some" were? Of what faith group? My understanding of every group that I know about is that they entrust the salvation of infants to the mercy of a merciful God. This includes faith groups from Catholic to the most fundamentalist Protestants. It is a terrible thing to say to a person who has loved a tiny loved one. Did your father ever share with you who told him that, and from what faith they were? Thanks so much. As one specific nobody, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor LDS, I have confidence in the mercy of a loving Savior, and of a merciful and just decision at the final judgment when all such decisions about eternal destiny will be made and revealed. I am glad your dad found peace and a similar confidence in the LDS church.

In catholicism, it is usually called "Limbo of Infants".  It isn't an official theology or policy and has been mostly disavowed since the 1950s.  But the idea is that unbaptized infants go to "Limbo" and not to Heaven or Hell.  See https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/they-buried-our-baby-for-5-and-nothing-more-was-said-1.561034, https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-1993-10-30-0000002726-story.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Limbo_of_Infants, and https://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/do-unbaptized-babies-go-to-limbo/.

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

In catholicism, it is usually called "Limbo of Infants".  It isn't an official theology or policy and has been mostly disavowed since the 1950s.  But the idea is that unbaptized infants go to "Limbo" and not to Heaven or Hell.  See https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/they-buried-our-baby-for-5-and-nothing-more-was-said-1.561034, https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-1993-10-30-0000002726-story.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Limbo_of_Infants, and https://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/do-unbaptized-babies-go-to-limbo/.

 

I was taught this in Catholic high school (LDS "seminary" level) through the late '60's

By then I was on my way out.

Imagine being in Limbo- a sub telestial Kingdom- because you died before baptism, and Adam's "sin" never got taken off your soul

I took to baptism for the dead quite readily.

Edited December 8, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

2 hours ago, webbles said:

In catholicism, it is usually called "Limbo of Infants".  It isn't an official theology or policy and has been mostly disavowed since the 1950s.  But the idea is that unbaptized infants go to "Limbo" and not to Heaven or Hell.

I was taught this in Catholic high school (LDS "seminary" level) through the late '60's

Same. K-8. Late 1970s.

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Imagine being in Limbo because you died before baptism.

Compared to terrestrial living, it sounds very peaceful. But then so does a 72hr hold.

[mfbukowski]

50 minutes ago, Chum said:

Same. K-8. Late 1970s.

Compared to terrestrial living, it sounds very peaceful. But then so does a 72hr hold.

BOR-RING!

Peace for ever?  I kind of associate that with a dozing warmth, but forever?  I honestly don't think that would appeal to me

 

[MiserereNobis]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

BOR-RING!

Peace for ever?  I kind of associate that with a dozing warmth, but forever?  I honestly don't think that would appeal to me

 

Working forever as an exalted God populating planets doesn't appeal to me, either. I'll take peace forever, like the moments I catch sometimes when I'm on monastic retreat.

Perhaps that's why you're LDS and I'm Catholic. God will give us the heaven we want, ha.

If there's music in heaven, we've got you beat. Gregorian chant and polyphony vs. the LDS hymnal  

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

It is a terrible thing to say to a person who has loved a tiny loved one.

Yes. Not only is it terrible, but it is also judging the state of salvation of someone (infant is in hell), and we are explicitly taught NOT to do that, so it is sinful, too.

Catholicism has wrestled with the state of those who aren't baptized. Limbo was one solution given, but it was never dogma. There is also the idea of baptism by desire -- if the person would have desired baptism but did not have the chance, then it is as if they are baptized. This is also speculation, not dogma.

In the end, I trust to a perfectly just and merciful God.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I have heard this same illustration given at a number of LDS funerals. Would you mind sharing with us who the "some" were? Of what faith group? My understanding of every group that I know about is that they entrust the salvation of infants to the mercy of a merciful God. This includes faith groups from Catholic to the most fundamentalist Protestants. It is a terrible thing to say to a person who has loved a tiny loved one. Did your father ever share with you who told him that, and from what faith they were? Thanks so much. As one specific nobody, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor LDS, I have confidence in the mercy of a loving Savior, and of a merciful and just decision at the final judgment when all such decisions about eternal destiny will be made and revealed. I am glad your dad found peace and a similar confidence in the LDS church.

I don’t know the Protestant group,  but when my husband’s Australian grandmother had an infant die without baptism, they were not allowed to bury him in hallowed ground.  They finally found a pastor who would do it for extra money if they hid it by burying him after dark.  I have no doubt this would be less likely to happen now.  When the missionaries showed up asking if she believed in infant baptism, she tried to slam the door in their faces, but one stuck his shoe in the door and shouted “neither do we!”  I will ask my husband if he knows who she asked to bury the infant, but my impression is it was a number of pastors in their city (Brisbane iirc), so it sounds like different denominations.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

My grandmother had two twin boys that were stillborn. When my father was young his little brother died from Scarlet Fever. When he grew up he asked people from many churches where his brother was. Some said he was in hell since he hadn’t been baptized. Eventually my Dad found the missionaries and was taught about missionary work in the Spirit World and he was baptized.

 

A few months ago my uncle passed away. At his funeral his friends shared that my uncle was concerned that he wasn’t ready to meet his Maker – because of what he had been ordered to do in Vietnam. My Dad and I didn’t know he served there. His friends shared that my uncle had worked with an intelligence agency and was ordered not to discuss it – he also didn’t like to discuss it. I had a strong impression at his funeral that those he fought against in Vietnam would welcome him with open arms. My uncle had a son who passed away when he was a teenager and a few weeks before my uncle passed away, my Dad's cousin passed away. I believe his son and my Dad's cousin welcomed my uncle with open arms.

 

Over the summer my mission president passed away. He and I were in the same ward when he was serving as Temple President. At his funeral his son shared that when his father was called to serve as the stake president, the General Authority told him" "There are many more brothers I interviewed who are more qualified than you - more experienced, more financially stable, but the Lord wants you to serve. I figure that's because you have the greatest capacity to love."

 

I testify the Savior organized missionary work in the Spirit World and wants all of His children to hear the gospel and how families can be eternal.

 

I also think that missinoary work there is much like missionary work here: organized per branch, ward, stake, mission with missinoaries, DL's, ZL's, AP's, mission presidents, etc.

...and they get "trunky" for the resurrection?

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I have heard this same illustration given at a number of LDS funerals. Would you mind sharing with us who the "some" were? Of what faith group?

Many years ago, on a separate message board, I wrote the following (which I later copied and emailed to myself) :

Quote

1. Christ is the only means of salvation. (John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.")

2. Failure to accept Christ leads to damnation. (Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.")

3. The majority of the human race is not Christian.

4. The majority of the human race throughout history has not been Christian.

5. The majority of the human race throughout histroy has not had the opportunity to hear about and accept the Gospel of Christ.

6. The majority of the human race will be damned, even those whose individual circumstances made it impossible for them to hear about or accept the Gospel.

7. It is wrong to damn someone to hell for eternity for not accepting something they never had the chance to accept in the first place.

A 15th-century Chinese peasant, for example, would have no access to Christ's Gospel. Zero. None. The Bible hadn't been translated into Chinese (and he was probably illiterate, anyway). There were no Christian missionaries in China at the time. Assuming that such a person was "really interested in knowing what God wants," how would he have sought and found the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

I wrote this in a discussion about this general topic, during which another poster had suggested that those who are "really interested in knowing what God wants" will find a way to discover, learn about and accept Jesus Christ.  The above comments were in response to that.  One of the responses I in turn received was (again, I later copied and emailed it to myself) :

Quote

I feel badly for all these peasants but that fact of the matter is they like the rest of us aren't good.

I was struck by this.  The response to "It is wrong to damn someone to hell for eternity for not accepting something they never had the chance to accept in the first place" was "I feel badly for all these {people}."

My recollection is that this and similar sentiments were expressed by participants from a variety of Protestant groups.  The contributing Catholic referenced "Baptism of Desire," which I found heartening.  I had limited information about these folks then, and even less now.

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

My understanding of every group that I know about is that they entrust the salvation of infants to the mercy of a merciful God. This includes faith groups from Catholic to the most fundamentalist Protestants.

I think this concept has been evolving.  Consider this story from 2007:

Quote

New hope exists in the uncertainty over the fate of unbaptized babies - for Catholics, at least.

The International Theological Commission released a report yesterday that eased speculation about limbo, the ethereal waiting room where Catholics believed the souls of infants who died without baptism would go until the second coming of Jesus.

The 41-page document, authorized by Pope Benedict XVI, expresses optimism that unbaptized children will someday reach heaven, according to the Catholic News Service. The panel of 30 theologians, appointed by the pope, advises the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Scholars said yesterday that the release of this paper clarifies that limbo was never a part of church doctrine but was a matter of conjecture, and that the church still urges the baptism of infants.

Huh.  I did not know that "limbo" had been, essentially, doctrinally disavowed by our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Quote

The document asserts that the question needed to be answered because more babies remain unbaptized with the rising numbers of non-Catholics and an increase in abortion, according to wire reports from the Vatican.

Limbo "was a theological hypothesis, really, to deal with a real pastoral problem of trying to figure out what happened to everybody who never heard of Jesus," said the Rev. Thomas J. Reese, a Jesuit and a senior fellow of the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University.

"Now when a parent whose child dies before they got a chance to baptize it doesn't have to feel guilty and have all this religious guilt on top of the tragic sorrow of having lost a child," Reese said. "We can celebrate their funerals and say, 'This child is with the angels,' even though it wasn't baptized."

Prior to 2007, though, it seems that there was, for some Catholics, "guilt" felt about the loss of an unbaptized child.

Quote

Some early Catholic thinkers such as St. Augustine of Hippo drew a hard line for those who died without taking care of their problem of original sin. Catholics believe all humans since Adam and Eve (except Mary, the mother of Jesus) are saddled with this taint, which keeps them out of heaven - unless washed away through baptism.

"Limbo emerged as a kind of way of softening the teaching of St. Augustine that unbaptized infants go to hell," said Frederick C. Bauerschmidt, who researches contemporary and medieval theology at Loyola College.

Though the saint said that "they're in the nicest part of hell, people did not find that entirely satisfactory," Bauerschmidt said.

Yes, that would be understandable.

Quote

Gradually, during the Middle Ages, people begin to put forth the idea of limbo to ease the logical question about the souls of those who died before reaching the "age of reason" - about seven years old, Bauerschmidt said. Heroes of the Hebrew Scripture who would have died long before Jesus' time also would have been confined there.

Limbo was considered a place of not supernatural but natural happiness, away from the presence of God. This concept is immortalized in Dante's Inferno, which describes hell as ringing with the cries of the tormented, but "in limbo you just hear sighs," Bauerschmidt said.

Back then, "the theologians couldn't work up the courage Benedict XVI has to say God's love reaches down even to infants," said James Buckley, a scholar at Loyola College.

Huh.

Quote

Most modern theologians take a different approach. "Today we don't interpret those [Scripture] passages in that literal a way," Reese said. "We believe it's possible for good people and especially innocent people to go to heaven directly."

Interfaith impact

This has implications for interfaith discussions - an area in which the pope has been seen to take a harder line than his former boss.

"Benedict is trying to balance the centrality of Jesus as savior of the world without saying that anybody who is not a Christian is going to hell," Reese said. "He's trying to do this delicate balancing act of stressing the importance of baptism but not joining fundamentalist views."

Bauerschmidt agreed. "While he might differ from his predecessor John Paul II on the best way to conduct interreligious dialogue, he's not at all closed to the possibility of salvation for non-Christians," he said.

I think this issue has been heavily influenced by Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation").

We Latter-day Saints have also sought jto address "the possibility of salvation for non-Christians," but we have done it in a somewhat different way.  Temple work.  D&C 137.  Moroni 8.  1 Peter 4:6.  John 5:25.  1 Cor. 15:29.  1 Pet. 3:18–20.  D&C 76:73.  D&C 88:99.  D&C 124:29.  D&C 138:18.  Moses 7:57.

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

It is a terrible thing to say to a person who has loved a tiny loved one. Did your father ever share with you who told him that, and from what faith they were? Thanks so much. As one specific nobody, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor LDS, I have confidence in the mercy of a loving Savior, and of a merciful and just decision at the final judgment when all such decisions about eternal destiny will be made and revealed. I am glad your dad found peace and a similar confidence in the LDS church.

In large and overwhelming measures, I agree with you.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Working forever as an exalted God populating planets doesn't appeal to me, either. I'll take peace forever, like the moments I catch sometimes when I'm on monastic retreat.

Perhaps that's why you're LDS and I'm Catholic. God will give us the heaven we want, ha.

If there's music in heaven, we've got you beat. Gregorian chant and polyphony vs. the LDS hymnal  

Dang it.

That's just not fair. 🤔😥

 

😉

Edited December 8, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'll take peace forever, like the moments I catch sometimes when I'm on monastic retreat.

Though if one is both infinite and perfect, seems like peace would also be an inherent quality…at least my interpretation of what it means.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

In the end, I trust to a perfectly just and merciful God.

Amen Brother!

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I have heard this same illustration given at a number of LDS funerals. Would you mind sharing with us who the "some" were? Of what faith group? My understanding of every group that I know about is that they entrust the salvation of infants to the mercy of a merciful God. This includes faith groups from Catholic to the most fundamentalist Protestants. It is a terrible thing to say to a person who has loved and lost a tiny loved one. Did your father ever share with you who told him that, and from what faith they were? Thanks so much. As one specific nobody, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor LDS, I have confidence in the mercy of a loving Savior, and of a merciful and just decision at the final judgment when all such decisions about eternal destiny will be made and revealed. I am glad your dad found peace and a similar confidence in the LDS church.

https://bible.org/question/what-happens-unbelievers-between-death-and-being-cast-hell

"That being said, I want to affirm that your understanding of the situation is correct. When an unbeliever dies at this time, his soul is separated from his body. The biblical evidence cited above does seem to indicate that believers go to a place of joy with the Lord and unbelievers go to a place of torment. At the final judgment of God, at the end of Christ’s Millennial reign on earth, all unbelievers will be united with their bodies and then sent to the lake of fire for all eternity. "

Edited December 8, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Edit- question already answered 

Edited December 8, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Prior to 2007, though, it seems that there was, for some Catholics, "guilt" felt about the loss of an unbaptized child.

Yes, big time.

[Olmec Donald]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Though if one is both infinite and perfect, seems like peace would also be an inherent quality…at least my interpretation of what it means.

Seems to me the only way God could really be at peace is if He/She/They are not worried about the outcome.  I would have a hard time if the outcome would or could be that ANY of my children would be separated from me forever, and God loves us more than I love my kids.  So I suspect that the work of retrieving "lost sheep" continues on the other side, and I ALSO suspect that God knows the end from the beginning, though He/She/They may not know in advance all the details of every single step along the way.  

Kinda like if you set out to build a house, you know from the beginning what the end result will be (assuming competence on your part), but you don't necessarily know in advance all of the details of everything that will happen during the build.  But whatever may go wrong along the way, you can figure out what to do, and accomplish your intended end result.  Thus you don't freak out over this or that set-back, because it never occurs to you that the final outcome will be anything other than what you intend.  So you are at peace in the midst of what may at times look like disaster and/or chaos to an observer. 

[Navidad]

44 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Limbo was considered a place of not supernatural but natural happiness, away from the presence of God.

Hi SMAC - I confess that I have often thought of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms in this way. Am I missing something? One of my favorite devotional books is "The Practice of the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence, a 17th (I think) century Carmelite. So, when a LDS friend of mine assured me that he thought  I was assured of a place in the telestial or terrestrial kingdom, I wasn't really impressed. He also told me that neither is where the Father or Son will live, but in the terrestrial, the Son might visit on occasion. Heavenly Father's presence is never in either. Right then and there I decided the LDS faith was not for me. Both kingdoms seem like a place of natural happiness and supernatural only in the sense that earth is a supernatural place with visits from angels and things supernatural, on occasion. "Away from the presence of God" is not where I want to spend eternity, whether its called a kingdom or not. With no king, there ain't no kingdom! What am I missing?

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

https://bible.org/question/what-happens-unbelievers-between-death-and-being-cast-hell

"That being said, I want to affirm that your understanding of the situation is correct. When an unbeliever dies at this time, his soul is separated from his body. The biblical evidence cited above does seem to indicate that believers go to a place of joy with the Lord and unbelievers go to a place of torment. At the final judgment of God, at the end of Christ’s Millennial reign on earth, all unbelievers will be united with their bodies and then sent to the lake of fire for all eternity. "

Well, my friend you do pull quotes from interesting sites! My question was, what group teaches that infants go to hell because they are unbaptized. I am not sure if this is your answer to my question or something else? I looked at the About us button on this page. It clearly says it is a "nondenominational Bible based site." That means it is part of no group that has oversight or accountability for anything they say. It looks to me like they are a group of five or six folks. My whole post in its entirety was about infants who die without baptism going to Hell. I did a search on the website you quoted from and found nothing about the topic. I know the schools these guys graduated from; my parents graduated from one of them. I am positive they don't believe that infants with or without baptism go to hell. Do you want me to ask them and report back?  They even equivocate on adult unbelievers - "seem to indicate"  is not "indicates" - however I am happy to write them and report back their response to the infant question. Or perhaps I am making a mistake in thinking your post quoting them was a response to my question? I have been wrong before! Ha! 😄

Edited December 8, 2021 by Navidad

[smac97]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi SMAC - I confess that I have often thought of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms in this way. Am I missing something?

I think there are similarities, yes.  But plenty of differences, too.  The tripartite kingdoms of glory concept in Latter-day Saint doctrine is, well, doctrinal.  It's not speculative.  It's right there in our scriptures.  Limbo, on the other hand (specifically, Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum)), seems to have been an ad hoc concept that developed over time.  It's hypothetical.  It's not in the Bible, not in the Catechism.

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

One of my favorite devotional books is "The Practice of the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence, a 17th (I think) century Carmelite. So, when a LDS friend of mine assured me that he thought  I was assured of a place in the telestial or terrestrial kingdom, I wasn't really impressed. He also told me that neither is where the Father or Son will live, but in the terrestrial, the Son might visit on occasion. Heavenly Father's presence is never in either. Right then and there I decided the LDS faith was not for me.

Huh.  I think there is little value is trying to adjudicate, through guesswork, who will end up where.  It is the province of the Lord to make such judgments.

Personally, I think there will be plenty of people who attain the Celestial Kingdom, but who presently have no conception of doing so.  

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Both kingdoms seem like a place of natural happiness and supernatural only in the sense that earth is a supernatural place with visits from angels and things supernatural, on occasion. "Away from the presence of God" is not where I want to spend eternity, whether its called a kingdom or not. With no king, there ain't no kingdom! What am I missing?

I'm not sure we have enough information to really comprehend these degrees of glory.

For me, I tend to focus more on a threshold issue.  If the Church is what it claims to be, then I follow the commandments as best I can.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 9, 2021 by smac97

[Chum]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

BOR-RING!  Peace for ever?  I kind of associate that with a dozing warmth, but forever?  I honestly don't think that would appeal to me

Father twins and then come back to me.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

If there's music in heaven, we've got you beat. Gregorian chant and polyphony vs. the LDS hymnal

Yeah, actually. In 100 years our hymn book will have entirely regressed into a primary songbook.