The Fortunate Fall as a later invention.

[Kenngo1969]

How's about Eve's observation in Moses 5: "Were it not for our transgression, we never should have had seed ..." [Going from memory: Please forgive any inexactitude or inaccuracies].

Thanks

-Ken

[Kevin Christensen]

17 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Was this the "Stranger in the Land" series back in the 70s?

Yes.  And as republished in Enoch the Prophet in the Nibley collected works.

 

Kevin C.

Canonsburg, PA

[mfbukowski]

On 12/6/2021 at 11:53 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly.  What else is new?

I don't get it.

With that way of thinking Joseph invented all our doctrines anyway INCLUDING  the Bom itself, work for the dead, the endowment, etc etc

What's the difference?

He was a prophet or he wasn't.

What's the big deal either way?

[mfbukowski]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:07 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

One could speculate that Jacob was having a bad day, or that he was setting the value of the atonement over against the wiley plan of Satan -- just as Lehi had presented the stark dualism of the Two Ways in II Nephi 2.

Joseph has often been accused of engaging in developmental theology, but the BofM contains nearly everything characteristic of modern LDS theology, as I demonstrated in my "Book of Mormon Theologies: A Thumbnail Sketch," Sept 2012, updated 2021, online at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WileB3WVoNm0DlVrLUBRMdwKsrlWLElj/view?usp=sharing

Thanks for that.  

I was going through the  BOM listing these very points, saved me lots of trouble!

[mfbukowski]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:18 AM, theplains said:

"Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments
as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves
in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do
evil or to do good."

What *commandments* did they transgress to become as gods?

Any of them. Any disobedience shows agency to obey or not

I think you misinterpreted the passage.

The "first commandments" were whatever the first disobeyed were, not like "the first three commandments" given to Moses.

Edited December 10, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:01 PM, The Nehor said:

I suspect we are in Plan B. I suspect this world was designed to deliberately fall and may be the only one that did. 

...That which has been done in other worlds...

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

...That which has been done in other worlds...

What was done in other worlds with God’s approval and His timing or exactly what was done?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't get it.

With that way of thinking Joseph invented all our doctrines anyway INCLUDING  the Bom itself, work for the dead, the endowment, etc etc

What's the difference?

He was a prophet or he wasn't.

What's the big deal either way?

I kinda like the Nibleyesque approach in which there really is nothing new under the sun.  One prophet is practically as good as any other.  Sometimes I'll demonstrate that LDS theology is fully present in the Bible, which astonishes the Protestants -- but not so much the Catholics.

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I kinda like the Nibleyesque approach in which there really is nothing new under the sun.  One prophet is practically as good as any other.  Sometimes I'll demonstrate that LDS theology is fully present in the Bible, which astonishes the Protestants -- but not so much the Catholics.

I agree, for me LDS theology left nothing missing from Catholicism, once one stripped away all the Platonic pagan philosophy which was not biblical, and had obviously invaded Catholicism.

Strip that out, and the results are LDS theology.

The biggie is essentially immanence vs transcendence.

If Heraclitus was easier to read and more popular, perhaps no Plato, no Descartes?  

Science might have seen reality as ever changing and subject to human experience instead of metaphysics 

[theplains]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Any of them. Any disobedience shows agency to obey or not

I think you misinterpreted the passage.

The "first commandments" were whatever the first disobeyed were, not like "the first three commandments" given to Moses.

Would you quote the scripture which shows they transgressed commandments (plural)
to become as gods?

[theplains]

On 12/8/2021 at 2:09 PM, teddyaware said:

Personally,I find it impossible to speak of a ‘fortunate fall’ because the price that was paid to redeem man form the fallen state was far too great to speak of the fall in such casual terms.

The 1998 version of Gospel Principles says great blessings resulted from the Fall; a teaching
that it was a fortunate fall.

[theplains]

On 12/9/2021 at 1:23 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

The Creation and Garden scenes are not historical narrative and are not to be taken literally:

Does that mean you believe God creating Adam from the dust of the earth and then
putting him to sleep to create Eve is not a historical event?

[teddyaware]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:53 PM, theplains said:

The 1998 version of Gospel Principles says great blessings resulted from the Fall; a teaching
that it was a fortunate fall.

In a manner of speaking, the fall most assuredly was and is fortunate (do you not believe being born on earth with the blessed opportunity to choose eternal life is most fortunate?). But even though the expression may be technically correct, I don’t particularly like it because it seems to be a somewhat cavalier expression and a bit disrespectful of the magnitude of the horrific sacrificial suffering endured by the Lord Jesus Christ in order to counteract the totally destructive effects of the fall . I say disrespectful because while it’s indeed easy to say the fall is fortunate, the price that had to be paid in order to transform that most terrible fall into an eternal blessing is too great to speak of it in such casual terms. In other words, I imagine someone saying the fall is fortunate while the Savior is standing nearby, and the Lord responds by saying, “that’s easy for you say, but it’s essential for you to understand that I made an infinite and eternal sacrifice of unimaginable suffering in order to make those easy to say words into a reality. I wasn’t thinking the fall was fortunate when I begged my Father to remove the bitter cup while in Gethsemane.” This is why I prefer to call it a “necessary fall” instead.

Edited December 16, 2021 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Duplicate

Edited December 11, 2021 by teddyaware

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Does that mean you believe God creating Adam from the dust of the earth and then
putting him to sleep to create Eve is not a historical event?

Correct, Jim.  These are poetic and figurative statements as part of formal temple liturgy.  Anglican Bishop Tom Wright tells us that it is "a temple story."  The LDS Brethren have consistently taught, for example, that Eve being created from Adam's rib is figurative.  Indeed, humans are only created in one way:  reproductively.

Brigham Young,

Quote

    “Though we have it in history that our Father Adam was made of the dust of this earth and that he knew nothing about his God previous to being made here, yet it is not so; and when we learn the truth we shall see and understand that he helped to make this world and was the chief manager in that operation.
    “He was the person who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world and brought a wife with him and stayed here. You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle.”      Journal of Discourses, 3:319.

Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund, First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, November 1909,

Quote

“all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner.”
* * * * *
“True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.”  Improvement Era, Nov 1909, 75–81.  Heber J. Grant, Anthony W. Ivins, and Charles W. Nibley explicitly agreed to this in 1925 as the next First Presidency.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The 1998 version of Gospel Principles says great blessings resulted from the Fall; a teaching
that it was a fortunate fall.

Yes, Jim.  And Pres Russell M. Nelson, in his address to the women’s session of General Conference (Saturday nite), Oct 6, 2018, commented on that far-seeing, good decision by Eve.  "Sisters' Participation in the Gathering of Israel," Ensign, 48/11 (Nov 1028):68-70, online at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/sisters-participation-in-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

Quote

As President Eyring pointed out, it was our glorious Mother Eve—with her far-reaching vision of our Heavenly Father’s plan—who initiated what we call ‘‘the Fall.” Her wise and courageous choice and Adam’s supporting decision moved God’s plan of happiness forward. They made it possible for each of us to come to earth, receive a body, and prove that we would choose to stand up for Jesus Christ now, just as we did premortally.

 

[theplains]

On 12/11/2021 at 12:45 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Correct, Jim.  These are poetic and figurative statements as part of formal temple liturgy.  Anglican Bishop Tom Wright tells us that it is "a temple story."  The LDS Brethren have consistently taught, for example, that Eve being created from Adam's rib is figurative.  Indeed, humans are only created in one way:  reproductively.

If Eve being created from Adam's rib was figurative, what does Moses 3:21 mean?

And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of
his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof

How was Jesus' conception on earth achieved? Was Heavenly Father physically
involved with Mary?

Edited December 16, 2021 by theplains

[theplains]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:01 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, Jim.  And Pres Russell M. Nelson, in his address to the women’s session of General Conference (Saturday nite), Oct 6, 2018, commented on that far-seeing, good decision by Eve.  "Sisters' Participation in the Gathering of Israel," Ensign, 48/11 (Nov 1028):68-70, online at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/sisters-participation-in-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

As President Eyring pointed out, it was our glorious Mother Eve-with her far-reaching 
vision of our Heavenly Father's plan-who initiated what we call 'the Fall.' Her wise 
and courageous choice and Adam's supporting decision moved God's plan of happiness 
forward. They made it possible for each of us to come to earth, receive a body, and 
prove that we would choose to stand up for Jesus Christ now, just as we did 
premortally.

This gives me the impression Eve was wiser than Adam before they ate from the forbidden
tree and that she had some kind of knowledge that eating from the tree would give her
procreative abilities.

The conversation and punishment of God to Adam and Eve after their act of disobedience
indicates He was not pleased with them.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

As President Eyring pointed out, it was our glorious Mother Eve-with her far-reaching 
vision of our Heavenly Father's plan-who initiated what we call 'the Fall.' Her wise 
and courageous choice and Adam's supporting decision moved God's plan of happiness 
forward. They made it possible for each of us to come to earth, receive a body, and 
prove that we would choose to stand up for Jesus Christ now, just as we did 
premortally.

This gives me the impression Eve was wiser than Adam before they ate from the forbidden
tree and that she had some kind of knowledge that eating from the tree would give her
procreative abilities.

The conversation and punishment of God to Adam and Eve after their act of disobedience
indicates He was not pleased with them.

A lot of impressions can be gained from liturgical drama, Jim, and likewise from parables, neither of which is to be taken literally.  They are stories from which lessons may be learned, and in some cases covenants made.  A priest blessing the emblems of bread and wine/water may have any sort of attitude or emotion connected to the holy ordinance he is performing, just as Jesus himself did when He formally declared den bisri "this is my body," and den idmi "this is my blood."  In either case, the ordinance is equally valid.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

If Eve being created from Adam's rib was figurative, what does Moses 3:21 mean?

And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of
his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof

Liturgical drama doesn't suddenly evolve into narrative history just because a reader does not understand how to classify literary genres.  That is why the Rev Dr Tom Wright tells us explicitly that it is "a temple story."  What takes place in God's temple?  Liturgy.  That is just not the same as narrative history.  Most evangelicals I have met just don't understand the difference.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

How was Jesus' conception on earth achieved? Was Heavenly Father physically
involved with Mary?

All humans, including Jesus, were conceived in the same way:  Reproductively.  LDS theology rejects miracles.  A miracle violates natural law.  God never violates natural law.

[mfbukowski]

On 12/10/2021 at 11:43 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

I kinda like the Nibleyesque approach in which there really is nothing new under the sun.  One prophet is practically as good as any other.  Sometimes I'll demonstrate that LDS theology is fully present in the Bible, which astonishes the Protestants -- but not so much the Catholics.

What was REALLY a shocker for me is that "most of" EVERY religion is found in LDS beliefs, including Zoroastrian beliefs,( sun = celestial, /light of Christ, a future savior,  many others)   Buddhism ( seeking heaven through personal testimony) Hinduism ( multiple gods, spark of divinity in all ) and even ancestor worship( exalted humanity becoming gods) and yin and yang (opposition in all things) and re-incarnation (Eloheim was once as we are)

Of course there have been alterations and corruptions, and apostasies a plenty.

But it really gives credibility to me that LDS beliefs may actually be the "first" religion from which all others are descended.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 12/8/2021 at 11:09 AM, teddyaware said:

In reality, there is no such thing as a “fortunate fall” because the fall is the most catastrophic and totally destructive force that mankind could ever encounter, as everything that’s evil and bad and nothing at all that’s good comes out of it. The only thing that transforms the fallen mortal experience into a net positive is the atoning sacrifice of Christ’s incomprehensible spiritual suffering, a most terrible price to pay in order to neutralize the utterly destructive effects of the fall.

Very puzzling.

So God did not want them to fall?

Then what was God's "real" plan?

No choice between good and evil?

Robotic obedience?

[CV75]

On 12/16/2021 at 11:16 AM, theplains said:

As President Eyring pointed out, it was our glorious Mother Eve-with her far-reaching 
vision of our Heavenly Father's plan-who initiated what we call 'the Fall.' Her wise 
and courageous choice and Adam's supporting decision moved God's plan of happiness 
forward. They made it possible for each of us to come to earth, receive a body, and 
prove that we would choose to stand up for Jesus Christ now, just as we did 
premortally.

This gives me the impression Eve was wiser than Adam before they ate from the forbidden
tree and that she had some kind of knowledge that eating from the tree would give her
procreative abilities.

The conversation and punishment of God to Adam and Eve after their act of disobedience
indicates He was not pleased with them.

You have been busy! My replies below can be taken literally or figuratively, whichever suits you.

They transgressed (changed) the law from a terrestrial order (Eden) to a telestial order (this world) to attain a celestial order through Christ. Specifically, they transgressed the order not to eat of the forbidden fruit. Some call that breaking, disobeying, sinning, etc. to emphasize a particular point.

Not multiplying and replenishing the earth was a secondary, but as Eve pointed out, still a key factor, in the desirableness of the forbidden fruit, in retrospect. This was not transgression because they did not change the order of Eden, which by design was to remain the same. Perhaps if they had spent more time maintaining the garden, they may not have thought much about that, but that doesn’t seem to get any mention.

The exercise of agency is essential to progress, even if it is exercised imperfectly or incorrectly by beings-less-than-gods, which is why God provided a Savior from before the foundation of the world: to catch us when we fall, help us get up, and pave the way for our continued progress.

The whole plan of salvation is fortunate: creation, fall, redemption, exaltation vs. creation, period (“the whole earth would be utterly wasted” from the Lord’s perspective).

Moses 3:21, to me, means (figuratively) that man is not without the woman and woman is not without the man. Eve coming out of Adam indicates that Adam, representing the Christ, is the gateway from one world or estate into the next. Mankind coming out of Eve indicates that Adam and Eve represent Heavenly Father and Mary, respectively, with the Christ coming out of Mary. In both cases, the woman (Eve or Mary, representing all women) is also the gateway from one world or estate into the next. Both man and woman operate together, in a covenant relationship (marriage), in an eternal round, reflecting what God does. However, Jesus was conceived, it required Heavenly Father and Mary to act in a covenant relationship (a marriage of some form) to fulfill the covenant that was established from before the foundation of the world.

Given the Atonement of Christ and that it was arranged even before Creation, it doesn’t matter if Eve was the wiser of the two, or if God was displeased with them for transgressing the law. We can infer that the overriding feeling was love for them, given that He had already committed to His Only Begotten Son’s Atonement.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

This gives me the impression Eve was wiser than Adam before they ate from the forbidden
tree and that she had some kind of knowledge that eating from the tree would give her
procreative abilities.

What's wrong with Eve being wiser than Adam about the female body?

This is not some big mystery.

In the story, before the fall they were not fully human, IMO, they were not fully immanent, they could not die, there was no need for them to reproduce, because they would not have been able to die. Mankind consisted of only of two beings hand constructed by God

This is in my opinion, not Doctrine.

There was no death before the fall, no need for reproduction.

Of course this all a temple play, and not historical, but the story is logically consistent

But again, if there was not to be a fall, how would the story come out?

The fact that no one can answer that indicates that the fall WAS part of the plan, and only a story.

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Very puzzling.

So God did not want them to fall?

Then what was God's "real" plan?

No choice between good and evil?

Robotic obedience?

Read 2 Nephi 9 and you’ll see how a prophet of God speaks of the effects of the fall in the most negative terms imaginable. The prophet Jacob testifies that the fall, on its own, without the counteracting effects of the atonement of Christ, is totally and completely destructive without even a single positive element that can be mentioned. It would therefore be more accurate to say “the fall is the ultimate curse of destruction, but the fall coupled with the atonement of Christ is the greatest imaginable fount of every blessing.

It’s erroneous to speak of the fall, on its own, as being a blessing. In fact, Jacob goes so far as to call it an ‘awful monster’ that drags every member of the human family down to an everlasting hell with the devil and his angels. There is ZERO good that comes out of the fall because it offers nothing but total physical and spiritual destruction. The only reason why good exists is because of Christ; there is nothing good that can be found in the fall because it is the ultimate disaster. Christ is the one and only source of goodness. Without Christ the fall is an irresistible abyss into a hell that has no end.

24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen and there could no good thing come unto them. (Moroni 7)

In other words, the fall is the absence of good.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by teddyaware