The Fortunate Fall as a later invention.

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

Looks like it is a made up word (can’t even be used for Scrabble) and Talmage was a geologist and son of innkeepers, so maybe it didn’t occur to him it would be seen as too earthy in the future.  

https://findwords.info/term/sireship#

https://www.poetrysoup.com/quotes/sireship

Added:  did find it in a fantasy book published in 2014 as a substitute for “your Lordship”.

And added again:  am seeing it now in academic papers on animal mating.  

Thanks!

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks!

You got my curiosity up. I love playing with words. 

[theplains]

On 12/21/2021 at 6:17 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Have never heard that term.  Which church uses it?  Could you cite the official church source?  Thanks, Jim.

“That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law
but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme
sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the ‘Son of the
Highest.’” (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 81).

as taught in the Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/4-jesus-christ?lang=eng

[theplains]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:53 PM, Calm said:

There is one quote that gets used that has the phrase in it.  Other than that I have never seen or heard the phrase “Celestial Sireship”.  I checked the Church’s website to be sure and there were 4 instances of the quote from Talmage, but nothing else. 

Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/4-jesus-christ?lang=eng

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, theplains said:

“That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law
but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme
sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the ‘Son of the
Highest.’” (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 81).

as taught in the Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/4-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Thank you so much, Jim.  It has been over 50 years since I read Talmage, and had quite forgotten that interesting turn of phrase.

[theplains]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Thank you so much, Jim.  It has been over 50 years since I read Talmage, and had quite forgotten that interesting turn of phrase.

Another item comes from the 2001 Ensign magazine.  Judging from this teaching of the church, 
a physical encounter with Mary to conceive Jesus is implied.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles elaborates, “‘The 
condescension of God,’ of which the scriptures speak, means that the Immortal Father-the 
glorified, exalted, enthroned ruler of the universe-came down from his station of dominion 
and power to become the Father of a Son who would be born of Mary, ‘after the manner of 
the flesh.’”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/12/the-condescension-of-god?lang=eng

If this is the way it really happened, then it's the only occurrence I could find of Heavenly
Father procreating with his own spirit daughter.

[CV75]

20 minutes ago, theplains said:

Another item comes from the 2001 Ensign magazine.  Judging from this teaching of the church, 
a physical encounter with Mary to conceive Jesus is implied.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles elaborates, “‘The 
condescension of God,’ of which the scriptures speak, means that the Immortal Father-the 
glorified, exalted, enthroned ruler of the universe-came down from his station of dominion 
and power to become the Father of a Son who would be born of Mary, ‘after the manner of 
the flesh.’”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/12/the-condescension-of-god?lang=eng

If this is the way it really happened, then it's the only occurrence I could find of Heavenly
Father procreating with his own spirit daughter.

Becoming a father after the manner of the flesh simply implies that the mother, who does all the work after the manner of the flesh, is mortal, no matter how the child is conceived, given that children prior to conception do not yet exist after the manner of the flesh. No child, no father. I think Eliza R. Snow came up with that. Mary made God a Father after the manner of the flesh by bearing Him the Son.

So yes, Mary is God's spirit daughter, filtered in the flesh, after the manner of the flesh, through generations descendant from another spirit son and daughter, Adam and Eve (respectively), through other  spirit children. Your mother is your spirit sister, your father your spirit brother, and your parents are spirit siblings. Likewise your children and spouse if you have them. So what's the big deal, anyway?

Edited December 23, 2021 by CV75

[theplains]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Your mother is your spirit sister, your father your spirit brother, and your parents are spirit siblings. Likewise your children and spouse if you have them. So what's the big deal, anyway?

I understand what you said and I don't consider this a big deal if one believes in pre-mortal spirit
children.  

But I was wondering if you consider it a big deal, if, and only if, the immortal Heavenly Father (of flesh)
procreated with his spirit daughter (mortal Mary, also of flesh)?

[InCognitus]

22 minutes ago, theplains said:

But I was wondering if you consider it a big deal, if, and only if, the immortal Heavenly Father (of flesh)
procreated with his spirit daughter (mortal Mary, also of flesh)?

Since Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, why would it be a big deal if both Heavenly Father and Mary are both flesh?   Jesus was born to a virgin.  

Edited December 23, 2021 by InCognitus

[Calm]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/4-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Yes, that is one of the four instances it is used on the Church website. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

I understand what you said and I don't consider this a big deal if one believes in pre-mortal spirit
children.  

But I was wondering if you consider it a big deal, if, and only if, the immortal Heavenly Father (of flesh)
procreated with his spirit daughter (mortal Mary, also of flesh)?

No. We are coeternal with God, and coexist with Him, first as pre-mortal intelligences and now in the flesh. Mary making Him the Father of the Only Begotten Son in the flesh is no different, relationally, than your mother making her spirit brother your father in the flesh. The particular mechanics resulting in any individuals' conception are irrelevant (imagine anything you'd like), but given the big picture we've been given in scripture, you can go back to Eve partaking of the forbidden fruit, or to the council in heaven, each literal places with their own laws for their respective mechanics. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Another item comes from the 2001 Ensign magazine.  Judging from this teaching of the church, 
a physical encounter with Mary to conceive Jesus is implied.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles elaborates, “‘The 
condescension of God,’ of which the scriptures speak, means that the Immortal Father-the 
glorified, exalted, enthroned ruler of the universe-came down from his station of dominion 
and power to become the Father of a Son who would be born of Mary, ‘after the manner of 
the flesh.’”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/12/the-condescension-of-god?lang=eng

If this is the way it really happened, then it's the only occurrence I could find of Heavenly
Father procreating with his own spirit daughter.

Yes, Jim, Miriam (an Egyptian name) is usually considered as unique by traditional Christianity.   However, there is an entire constellation of common Christian and Egyptian religious terms and characteristics, including
(1) both Miriam and Isis  being called Mother of God (Theotokos “God-bearer”), Queen of Heaven (Regina caeli), Heifer, Star of the Sea, Intercessor, and “Virgin” (Egyptian hwnt).

(2) with both presented iconographically throughout the Mediterranean world as the Mother (Maria Lactans) suckling young Jesus/Horus.
(3) Gilles Quispel even argues that Revelation 12 is really a version of the Legend of Isis the Virgin fleeing with her son Horus from Seth (Typhon-Hydra);
(4) the festal birth of the child-god who comes “to bring salvation into the world” through his legitimate kingship,
(5) the very son of the Sun-god,
(6) whose traditional birth date, like that of Jesus, is conceptually the very birthday of Reʿ at Winter Solstice,
(7) and is associated with formal temple triads/the Holy Trinity;
(8) the newborn child is blessed, “circumcised, purified, and” formally “presented . . . as the new king.”

(9) New Year’s gifts are given for “the feasts of Choiak and Nhb-kЗw as well as those of wp rnpt,” i.e., “the Opening of the Year,” just as they are on Three Kings Day among many Christians (January 6): also known as Twelfth Night, or Epiphany.

However, the late Robert Graves and other scholars have gone much further:  There are, for example, the doctrines of Virgin Birth and Divine Paternity both required for Jesus, the Word of God, because they were already part of the stock legends of Hermes (son of the Bona Dea, Maia, daughter of Atlas), the Word/Logos of Zeus; and Perseus, son of Zeus and Danaë (like Isis, and some others, she conceived via a shower of gold or a "bolt from the blue"); cf. Hercules, son of Zeus and Alcemena (wife of Amphitryon); Dionysus, son of Zeus and Semele of Thebes; Minos and Rhadamanthus, sons of Zeus and Europa, daughter of the King of Sidon; Theagenes of Thasos, a great athlete, miracle-worker, and son of a god.  

Cyrus H. Gordon broadened the discussion by including the pattern of dual paternity: the virgin Polymele bore Eudorus to the god Hermes, though married to the human Echecles; Polydora, wife of Borus, bore Menesthius to the god Spercheius; Patroclus is the son of Zeus and of Menoetius; Odysseus is divine because son of Zeus, but King of Ithaca because son of Laertes; Noah is son of both God and Lamech; and, of course, Jesus is divine because the son of God, but King of the Jews because son of Joseph.  Gordon also suggests that Isaac is divine because he is the literal son of God and Sarah (Gen 21:1-2, Judg 15:1, פקד paqad "coitus, visit"), though also the heir of Abraham.  He adds that both Isaac and Jesus faced sacrifice, the former as a type of the latter (Gen 22 = the Gospels; Heb 11:17-19, Rom 8:32).

Edited December 23, 2021 by Robert F. Smith