Opinion Piece by Ty Mansfield: Managing "Tension" between Doctrines and Impact

CV75 · October 26, 2021

31 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What would be the purpose then of sealing husbands to wives for eternity, if there is no need for a male/female couple in the eternities? I would agree with you that spirit birth is probably different than mortal birth, but if a male and female aren't needed in some role then there would seem to be no reason for husband and wife sealings.

Spirit birth required a sealed Couple. Spiritual rebirth requires baptism of water and of fire and the Holy Ghost, both dependent on a) being born of a mouther and father; and b) Christ having been born in the same way. The same with resurrection and immortality, etc. -- Christ being at the center of all of this, just as His Father was at the center before Him. We have Moses 3 to explain it to us.

ETA: Science is getting close to birthing people without a male-female pairing, but a) that is built on the DNA donor(s) having been born of a male-female pairing and b) outside of God’s order. Works outside of God’s order come to an end in the lesser kingdoms of glory where is no continuation of the seed / lives.

Edited October 26, 2021 by CV75

pogi · October 26, 2021

48 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What would be the purpose then of sealing husbands to wives for eternity, if there is no need for a male/female couple in the eternities? I would agree with you that spirit birth is probably different than mortal birth, but if a male and female aren't needed in some role then there would seem to be no reason for husband and wife sealings.

Sealings serve a purpose in creating united eternal family units - it is not necessarily for the purpose of procreation of spirit children, per se. Parents are sealed to their children, for example, and all those who who exalted will be connected through a chain of sealing connected to God. I think the biggest scriptural/doctrinal hurdle for gay sealings is 1 Corinthians 11:11 - "neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man in the Lord."

SeekingUnderstanding · October 26, 2021

46 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

AFAIK Sec. 132 was ratified by the church members.

Remind me when plural marriage started (1831) vs when it was presented and ratified again (1852)?

46 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

The Nov 5 “revelation” is not in scripture AFAIK, so was never ratified. Ie. it is not an official revelation.

So only “official” revelations are ratified? So where did plural marriage fall for 20 years before it was ratified. Was it not official?

Nofear · October 26, 2021

41 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Since we are discussing whether prophetic revelation will change on this issue, I have a question for all involved about prophetic revelation. Why throughout the Bible, The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants did God reveal His will to a prophet (one specifically not 15)? [snip]

I suspect that the pattern the Twelve followed in the Americas (and to an extent even in Jerusalem) was the same -- that unity and agreement was sought.
The other questions I snipped others can and have answered (both in published and unpublished scenarios). One recent example: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2021-07-08/church-councils-president-oaks-eyring-first-presidency-218412

pogi · October 26, 2021

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Since we are discussing whether prophetic revelation will change on this issue, I have a question for all involved about prophetic revelation. Why throughout the Bible, The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants did God reveal His will to a prophet (one specifically not 15)? Why was this revelation almost always recorded as a vision, dream, visitation by an angel or visitation by Jesus but since Joseph Smith, only one dream has been canonized? We claim God doesn't change but why no more visions, dreams, visitation by angels or The Savior? Please don't tell me they are too sacred to share because the flies in the face of what every prophet up to and including Joseph Smith by in fact sharing those experiences? What are your ideas on why the change in revelation? I am not claiming the general authorities don't get revelation, I just believe they receive it they same way each one of us do. Through internal feelings that we identify as the voice of the Holy Ghost.

This was shared by Spencer w. Kimball:

"The Lord has given me dreams which to me are just as real and as much from God as was the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar . . . or the dream of Lehi who through a dream led his colony out of the old country across the mighty deep to this promised land, or any other dreams that we might read in the scriptures."

Lorenzo Snow:

"President Snow suddenly stopped and said, 'Wait a moment, Allie. I want to tell you something.' Allie listened intently as her grandfather told her of an unforgettable experience he had once had at that place in the temple: 'It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff [as President of the Church].' "President Snow held out his left hand and said, 'He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though he stood on a plate of solid gold.' "Still speaking in hushed, reverent tones, President Snow told Allie that the Savior’s appearance was so glorious and bright that he could hardly look at Him. "President Snow put his right hand on Allie’s head and said, 'Now granddaughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grandfather, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the temple, and talked with him face to face'" (Susan Arringtom Madsen, The Lord Needed a Prophet, 82–83).

George Q Cannon:

"On one occasion, while praying in a garden behind Nalimanui’s home, President Cannon received a powerful divine manifestation so sacred to him that he seldom mentioned it in public and never supplied details," Daniel Peterson wrote shared the Deseret News. "Later, though, he recorded that God 'revealed himself to me as he had never done before. . . . Many things were revealed to me during those days, when he was the only friend we had to lean upon. A friendship was thus established between our Father and myself, which I trust will never be broken or diminished. . . . He condescended to commune with me, for I heard his voice more than once as one man speaks with another."

Orson F. Whitney:

“Then came a marvelous manifestation, an admonition from a higher Source, one impossible to ignore. It was a dream, or a vision in a dream, as I lay upon my bed in the little town of Columbia, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania...

David O. McKay:

I then fell asleep, and beheld in vision something infinitely sublime...

This was shared by Spencer w. Kimball:

"The Lord has given me dreams which to me are just as real and as much from God as was the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar . . . or the dream of Lehi who through a dream led his colony out of the old country across the mighty deep to this promised land, or any other dreams that we might read in the scriptures."

Lorenzo Snow:

"President Snow suddenly stopped and said, 'Wait a moment, Allie. I want to tell you something.' Allie listened intently as her grandfather told her of an unforgettable experience he had once had at that place in the temple: 'It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff [as President of the Church].' "President Snow held out his left hand and said, 'He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though he stood on a plate of solid gold.' "Still speaking in hushed, reverent tones, President Snow told Allie that the Savior’s appearance was so glorious and bright that he could hardly look at Him. "President Snow put his right hand on Allie’s head and said, 'Now granddaughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grandfather, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the temple, and talked with him face to face'" (Susan Arringtom Madsen, The Lord Needed a Prophet, 82–83).

George Q Cannon:

"On one occasion, while praying in a garden behind Nalimanui’s home, President Cannon received a powerful divine manifestation so sacred to him that he seldom mentioned it in public and never supplied details," Daniel Peterson wrote shared the Deseret News. "Later, though, he recorded that God 'revealed himself to me as he had never done before. . . . Many things were revealed to me during those days, when he was the only friend we had to lean upon. A friendship was thus established between our Father and myself, which I trust will never be broken or diminished. . . . He condescended to commune with me, for I heard his voice more than once as one man speaks with another."

Orson F. Whitney:

“Then came a marvelous manifestation, an admonition from a higher Source, one impossible to ignore. It was a dream, or a vision in a dream, as I lay upon my bed in the little town of Columbia, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania...

David O. McKay:

I then fell asleep, and beheld in vision something infinitely sublime...

https://deseretbook.com/p/dreams-as-revelation?variant_id=171589-hardcover&s_cid=bl190808&utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=blog&utm_content=bl190808-86605

https://www.ldsliving.com/8-divine-accounts-of-prophets-and-apostles-seeing-the-savior/s/86605

I know that President Nelson frequently talks about being woken up in the night in revelation.

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

On 10/23/2021 at 9:21 PM, california boy said:

79% were surprised by that announcement.

Not sure what the issue is with this. One can believe that something is going to happen at some time in the future, and still be surprised when it actually happens. By "surprise" might be understood "unexpected", but certainly includes "earlier than expected". In my own case, I expected the priesthood ban to be lifted at some point, just as I expect the Second Coming to occur. I was "surprised" by the former's actual occurrence, but not because I didn't expect it. I had no idea on the timetable. Thus the surprise was like what I got for my birthday. Expected a present, didn't know it would be that particular present.

By the way, for my birthday earlier this month my stepson got me something completely unexpected, the DVD set of the John Adams biographical miniseries. It was something I had long wanted to watch, but had never gotten around to obtaining. I was very pleasantly surprised at the gift, but not that I received a gift, just that gift.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across.

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

On 10/23/2021 at 11:23 PM, webbles said:

The 40% of people who thought it wouldn't end in their lifetime isn't the real problem for me. It is the fact that 39% didn't think the ban would ever end. But, yes, the majority of members in the survey didn't expect it to end within their lifetime.

I think that most people didn't expect that the Berlin Wall would be taken down in their lifetime, either. Or that the Soviet Union would fall without much more than a whimper, closely on the heels of the Wall.

That's probably off-topic, though -- expectations of the priesthood ban reflect attitudes regarding race and race relations, whereas the fall of Communist Russia is something else entirely.

Stormin' Mormon · October 26, 2021

56 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

We claim God doesn't change but why no more visions, dreams, visitation by angels or The Savior? Please don't tell me they are too sacred to share because the flies in the face of what every prophet up to and including Joseph Smith by in fact sharing those experiences? What are your ideas on why the change in revelation?

The revelations Joseph received laid the groundwork for a whole system of revelatory guidance. Once those revelations had been given, there was no need for them to be given again. Since that time, revelations have poured out of the church from high councils, bishopric meetings, Relief Society presidencies, and family home evenings. But a revelation given to a Relief Society president in Caribou, AK has no bearing on my life in southern Arizona, so there's no need for that revelation to be published beyond the borders of that ward.

Paraphrasing from memory (so take it with a grain of salt) but I recall that in "Rough Stone Rolling," Bushman outlines how, once the first high council was formed, Joseph thought his work was done. He now had a group that had learned how to receive their own revelation, and they could now receive it and teach that skill to other councils and church governing bodies. There was no need for him to be the sole receptor of divine communications anymore. Indeed, if you look at the chronology of the Doctrine and Covenants, there's a sharp drop-off in the frequency of revelation--not after Joseph Smith died, but a good 10 years before that. After the mid 1830s or so, Joseph was no longer receiving the dispensation-establishing revelations that we associate with him. During the last ten years of his life, revelation in the church was received primarily in the councils and presidencies of the church. These unpublished and limited-jurisdictional revelations keep the church running, even to this day.

It's not that dreams and visions and revelations are too sacred to share. Rather they are too common and too limited in jurisdictional application to share.

The Nehor · October 26, 2021

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Spirit birth required a sealed Couple. Spiritual rebirth requires baptism of water and of fire and the Holy Ghost, both dependent on a) being born of a mouther and father; and b) Christ having been born in the same way. The same with resurrection and immortality, etc. -- Christ being at the center of all of this, just as His Father was at the center before Him. We have Moses 3 to explain it to us.

ETA: Science is getting close to birthing people without a male-female pairing, but a) that is built on the DNA donor(s) having been born of a male-female pairing and b) outside of God’s order. Works outside of God’s order come to an end in the lesser kingdoms of glory where is no continuation of the seed / lives.

Can you give me a quick primer on what things are outside of God’s order?

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

16 hours ago, california boy said:

So this whole thing about the Church being run by Christ and revelation doesn't really mean much does it.

I myself have received personal revelations, and I would go so far as to say that I am being "run by Christ" in the sense that I seek to do His will and seek His guidance. But I don't get daily, weekly, monthly, annual, or semi-annual revelation calls directing me to do this or that. He lets me run my own life according to the principle Joseph Smith expressed as "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

It means that we are on our own in the main, but from time to time the Lord might intervene to get us closer to the road He wants us to travel.

Or do you think that for it to be the "true church" that the Lord must dictate things hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and annually?

16 hours ago, california boy said:

It is a church run by committee that has to approve of everything unanimously. I certainly agree with that. I just didn't realize this was the official Church version of how things are done.

DC 38:27 - "...if ye are not one ye are not mine." That's pretty official.

16 hours ago, california boy said:

And if an apostle like Hugh B. Brown or Mark E. Peterson isn't receiving revelation, then why are they holding the position of apostle?? I would think the very most important thing about their calling is to follow the will of Christ. If they aren't doing that, then what?

Are the Twelve robots?

Perhaps there was a reason why President Lee's tenure was only a few months. He was young enough to have endured a long time.

And so we come back to perfection again. Not that it matters to some, but a casual reading of the New Testament will yield the information that the Twelve in post-resurrection days were also not in agreement about many things. The principle of unanimity seems not to have been strictly followed at all times, but still they seem to have striven for it. And they weren't going to let the Gentiles in until Peter had a revelation about the subject. I suspect there was a Mark E. Peterson analog not wanting to go along with the revelation -- but whoever it was, he was still an apostle.

And this brings us back to those non-robots of the Twelve. Is it required that they be perfect servants of God in order for the Church to be true? Some seem to hold to that principle.

16 hours ago, california boy said:

I have to say, it is really interesting to me to see how members handle this. Thanks for explaining this all to me.

You're welcome.

CV75 · October 26, 2021

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Can you give me a quick primer on what things are outside of God’s order?

Ordaining fence posts.

Judge Indian GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

ETA: In case you weren't looking for a joke: A little more detail: those things that do not tie back to Christ and how He came to be. God loves the human being(s) arising from in-vitro fertilization with two (or more) same-sex DNA donors (or a single donor) born outside of His order by happenstance (from their perspective), and brings them into His order through adoption, just like children born outside the covenant. A fulness of His order would be exaltation and the continuation of the seeds through marriage as described in D&C 132.

Edited October 26, 2021 by CV75

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

8 hours ago, Calm said:

There are many couples who adopt children and raise up righteous progeny. This is theoretically and practically possible in mortality. Are there reasons it would be impossible in the eternities? If not, I think assuming it would frustrate the Lord’s purpose is ignoring how the Gods work together. As far as we known, the Father does not send God the Mother version 2 with God the Father version 2 with a backpack or two with all their needed supplies to start a universe and then waves them off with “you are on your own, see you in a millennium or two.

I think there are valid arguments that exalted couples will be man and woman, but lack of biological progeny isn’t one of them, IMO, not with the limited knowledge we work with. We can clone and have many artificial processes these days making it easer…or harder…to become pregnant. They have incubation beds for extremely young babies. I would not be the least bit surprised if the next leap of medical OB progress is being able to so duplicate the conditions of the womb that even young fetuses may be able to survive once how the umbilical cord can be integrated into the unit to truly mimic a womb.

You ought to read Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series. She was writing about this kind of thing decades ago. If you're into science fiction, you might enjoy her writing. It's one of my favorite SF novel series. She was writing about artificial wombs and genetic modification (like taking a gamete and doing nanosurgery on it's DNA in order to remove bad stuff and replace it with good stuff) for decades before it became a "thing" in the real world. And later novels bring male-male and female-female gametes being combined to create children.

But regardless of any possible futures of such advanced technology, I look at God's laws regarding this as essential to the survival of the human species. Males and females were absolutely required to engender progeny and a continuation of the species. Can this be changed? Possibly! But I have a feeling that it either won't work, or the Millennium will come before it can be made to.

CV75 · October 26, 2021

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You ought to read Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series. She was writing about this kind of thing decades ago. If you're into science fiction, you might enjoy her writing. It's one of my favorite SF novel series. She was writing about artificial wombs and genetic modification (like taking a gamete and doing nanosurgery on it's DNA in order to remove bad stuff and replace it with good stuff) for decades before it became a "thing" in the real world. And later novels bring male-male and female-female gametes being combined to create children.

But regardless of any possible futures of such advanced technology, I look at God's laws regarding this as essential to the survival of the human species. Males and females were absolutely required to engender progeny and a continuation of the species. Can this be changed? Possibly! But I have a feeling that it either won't work, or the Millennium will come before it can be made to.

If spirits are co-eternal with God (their Parents), they have to come through Them one way or another, and they are not co-eternal with machinery and technology.

The Nehor · October 26, 2021

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But regardless of any possible futures of such advanced technology, I look at God's laws regarding this as essential to the survival of the human species. Males and females were absolutely required to engender progeny and a continuation of the species. Can this be changed? Possibly! But I have a feeling that it either won't work, or the Millennium will come before it can be made to.

So by “won’t work” do you mean the creation won’t be viable? Or that the ‘person’ will not get an eternal spirit and will be some kind of human without a spirit? Some kind of abomination?

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

****cough, plural marriage cough***

Point!

Or is it?

9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Also can you tell me when the Nov 5 “revelation” banning children of gay couples baptism was ratified by church members again?

More accurate to say it wasn't just "gay couples" it was "gay married". Slight difference. And it wasn't a ban. It was a delay.

So, you're thinking that every policy variation, no matter how small, requires ratification by the entire church? So, when the policy that required those who married civilly wait a year to be sealed in the temple was discontinued, that needed to be put before the church? How about the policy regarding how long temple recommends are valid (now 2 years)?

Anyway, what if the policy about requiring children of gay married persons waiting until age 18 had actually been something the Lord approved? Could not the Lord later revoke it? He removed the keys to plural marriage, after all, did He not? And without a general ratification, apparently.

DC 56:4 - Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

In context, He revoked His command because of peoples stiffneckedness. Interestingly a similar situation to the Nov. 5th thing you cite.

DC 58:32-33 - I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing. Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above.

Is the Lord not allowed to let his servants modify policy to suit the situation?

Of course not. Because the Lord is fiction to some people. And He must do everything the same way He did it eight thousand years ago. Or last week.

That would make Him somewhat less than omnipotent, wouldn't it?

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So by “won’t work” do you mean the creation won’t be viable? Or that the ‘person’ will not get an eternal spirit and will be some kind of human without a spirit? Some kind of abomination?

Not what I mean at all. By "won't work" I mean that it's cold fusion, or artificial gravity. Ends up not being scientifically feasible, workable. Can't do it. Fails to come to fruition. You know, like me ever finishing that science fiction novel I once started to write. It's a great novel, in my mind at least. It's actually a trilogy.

Given the progress that has been made in gene manipulation technology, I think it's entirely possible that technicians could eventually assemble human DNA into a packet that could be put into a viable enucleated ovum and thus grow a human with whatever characteristics were desired. Including a human whose parents were both male, or both female. And such a human with the full complement of human chromosomes would be a true human being. With an eternal spirit.

But it's possible that this will never happen because, for some reason, it can't be done. We'll see, I guess.

And with that, I present:

Stargazer · October 26, 2021

49 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If spirits are co-eternal with God (their Parents), they have to come through Them one way or another, and they are not co-eternal with machinery and technology.

So, you're saying that if a scientist was able to clone me, the resulting person would not be a child of God? Why not?

My wife has two artificial knees. I expect that she will be resurrected with natural knees. But the machinery and technology she's using now does not preclude her being an eternal being and a child of God.

The Nehor · October 26, 2021

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Not what I mean at all. By "won't work" I mean that it's cold fusion, or artificial gravity. Ends up not being scientifically feasible, workable. Can't do it. Fails to come to fruition. You know, like me ever finishing that science fiction novel I once started to write. It's a great novel, in my mind at least. It's actually a trilogy.

Given the progress that has been made in gene manipulation technology, I think it's entirely possible that technicians could eventually assemble human DNA into a packet that could be put into a viable enucleated ovum and thus grow a human with whatever characteristics were desired. Including a human whose parents were both male, or both female. And such a human with the full complement of human chromosomes would be a true human being. With an eternal spirit.

But it's possible that this will never happen because, for some reason, it can't be done. We'll see, I guess.

And with that, I present:

So “not viable” which was one of the things I said.

CV75 · October 26, 2021

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So by “won’t work” do you mean the creation won’t be viable? Or that the ‘person’ will not get an eternal spirit and will be some kind of human without a spirit? Some kind of abomination?

Those things that do not tie back to Christ and how He came to be "won't work".

God loves those coming into this world by in-vitro fertilization (or other technologies) using two (or more) same-sex DNA donors (or a single donor). They are born outside of His order, just like illegitimate children, but He will bring them into His order eventually through adoption, just like any child born outside the covenant. A fulness of His order "will work" which is the continuation of the seeds in exaltation through a marriage covenant as described in D&C 132.

CV75 · October 26, 2021

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

So, you're saying that if a scientist was able to clone me, the resulting person would not be a child of God? Why not?

My wife has two artificial knees. I expect that she will be resurrected with natural knees. But the machinery and technology she's using now does not preclude her being an eternal being and a child of God.

Not at all. I am saying that intelligences / spirts are co-eternal with Heavenly Parents, and not Their technology (if They use any), and so they come into the pre-mortal estate through the Parents (a Male and a Female, a Mother and a Father -- sad how I have to point that out !!!), not Their technology. I explained my views on the exclusivity of male-female pairing for this purpose in terms of a Christ-centered "cosmos."

Edited October 26, 2021 by CV75

The Nehor · October 26, 2021

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Those things that do not tie back to Christ and how He came to be "won't work".

God loves those coming into this world by in-vitro fertilization (or other technologies) using two (or more) same-sex DNA donors (or a single donor). They are born outside of His order, just like illegitimate children, but He will bring them into His order eventually through adoption, just like any child born outside the covenant. A fulness of His order "will work" which is the continuation of the seeds in exaltation through a marriage covenant as described in D&C 132.

“tie back to Christ and how He came to be”

Hmmmmmm……

So how was Christ conceived? In-vitro? While out of wedlock?

smac97 · October 26, 2021

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Since we are discussing whether prophetic revelation will change on this issue, I have a question for all involved about prophetic revelation. Why throughout the Bible, The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants did God reveal His will to a prophet (one specifically not 15)?

I'm not sure I understand your question. God reveals all sorts of things to all sorts of people. But stewardship matters. A lot. Consequently, as pertaining to the body of the Church, there are plenty of scriptures that provide guidance as to how that works.

"Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion." (D&C 132:8.)

"Again I say, hearken ye elders of my church, whom I have appointed: Ye are not sent forth to be taught, but to teach the children of men the things which I have put into your hands by the power of my Spirit." (D&C 43:15.)

"Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given. But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses. And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church. ... And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church; For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead." (D&C 28:1-3, 6-7.)

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Why was this revelation almost always recorded as a vision, dream, visitation by an angel or visitation by Jesus but since Joseph Smith, only one dream has been canonized?

Not all revelations are canonized. That does not make them less revelatory, though.

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

We claim God doesn't change but why no more visions, dreams, visitation by angels or The Savior?

I think these things still happen, but in the Lord's economy. And often such things are not canonized.

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Please don't tell me they are too sacred to share because the flies in the face of what every prophet up to and including Joseph Smith by in fact sharing those experiences?

I don't think it does. There are plenty of times the Lord has constrained the publication of things. See, e.g., Matthew 13:

Quote

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And Mark 9:

Quote

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

And Mark 8:

Quote

27 ¶ And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Cæsarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

And Mark 7:

Quote

31 ¶ And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, he came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.
32 And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him.
33 And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;
34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.
35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.
36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;
37 And were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.

And Luke 5:

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12 ¶ And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
13 And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

And Matthew 16:

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19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

And Luke 8:

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49 ¶ While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue’s house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

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Opinion Piece by Ty Mansfield: Managing "Tension" between Doctrines and Impact

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