What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Orientation is a cultural construct of relatively recent vintage.  How then can it be a default setting of an eternal being?

I don't believe that it is. I think the binary male/female setting is both biologically and historically mega-dominant, no matter what recent academics in gender studies programs argue. It also makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that gender isn't as malleable and fluid as is currently in vogue to argue. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't believe that it is. I think the binary male/female setting is both biologically and historically mega-dominant, no matter what recent academics in gender studies programs argue. It also makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that gender isn't as malleable and fluid as is currently in vogue to argue. 

What purpose will it serve for you to be sexually attracted to more women than just your wife in the eternities?  Your wife will never die, your marriage relationship never end in divorce.  You will have an eternal physical and sexual relationship with your wife.  Why do you need to be attracted to anyone else as well?  Do you plan on adding marriages throughout eternity or having second outside of marriage?

Quote

Attempts to portray the hereafter as asexual strike me as being embarrassed about how LDS corporealism strikes outsiders 

Since that is not what I am doing, guess that means I am not embarrassed. And given that I think it is even possible our sexual attraction to our spouses will even be stronger than they are in mortality…after all, many times individuals lose their sexual attraction for their spouses in mortality and this is unlikely to occur in a perfect, eternal relationship…I think anyone assuming I don’t think sexual attraction will exist at all is assuming something not in evidence and is actually reading their own assumptions of what it would mean to want to be with their spouse eternally, including in a sexual way, into my comments.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Calm

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

What purpose will it serve for you to be sexually attracted to more women than just your wife in the eternities?

What purpose does it serve here? What purpose does being able to eat serve for resurrected beings, and yet they can. Even though they don't have to, though. They still retain the abilities from mortality. 

As resurrected celestial beings, we will be able to control our thoughts in a way that we can't now. I think that gender being an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose doesn't mean that attraction is excluded so as to only be possible for our spouse(s). 

There's also the prospect of eternal polygamy, too . . .  

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

What purpose does it serve here?

It serves to drive you to look for a mate and to get married and helps to stay married for many.

One might even use scripture to demonstrate that sexual desire as we understand it now did not exist before Adam and Eve fell and entered the mortal world.

Quote

Your desire will be for your husband…

This after all says nothing about sexual attraction:

Quote

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
    and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
    for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

What purpose does being able to eat serve for resurrected beings, and yet they can

How do you know Jesus and others did anything but open their mouths and put food in it?  The purpose was to demonstrate to mortal beings they were physical beings.  This could be achieved with food in multiple ways.

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you know Jesus and others did anything but open their mouths and put food in it?  The purpose was to demonstrate to mortal beings they were physical beings.  This could be achieved with food in multiple ways.

And what, spit it out when they weren't looking? 

What other multiple ways, besides swallowing it (and I guess spitting it out when they weren't looking)?

That's why the broiled fish and honeycomb are powerful testimonies of the resurrection. They can eat, just like we can, even though they don't need to. 

What do you think about celestial polygamy? Would attraction just be tuned to however many wives a man has? 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

we will be able to control our thoughts in a way that we can't now. 

There is obedience…where we do something we wouldn’t normally do because we are commanded and we desire to please the Lord (or whoever else commands us).  There is a change of heart, where we do something no longer because we are commanded, but because we have become the type of person who does those things.  Think of it as the difference between someone who sees tithing as a chance to obey God and thus monthly chooses to pay tithing and someone who just automatically gives that portion because in their mind it belongs to God and there is no desire to possess it.

Does God need to control his thoughts about being sexually attracted to others besides his wife (or wives if you believe that)?  Does he have flashes of attraction that pop into his head that he then removes somehow or is it much more likely he looks on no one besides his wife with any sexual desire (this is not the same thing as being able to appreciate beauty).

If an exalted or resurrected being walked into a room full of naked people, would they need to tell them to put clothes on or have to leave or would they see nakedness as a natural state and have no thoughts of what it would be like to have sex with any of these naked people or thoughts that if nurtured lead to that desire?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You don’t have to label anything an affliction to still wonder if an attribute will be eternally present.  Just ask yourself is this something I will need in an eternal life, in a perfected form?  What would be the purpose of …….?

What will even continue to be part of our personality if it is not necessary?  Why permanently keep an attribute in a form that may lead to damaging ourselves either physically or emotionally, if we have perfect bodies, perfect control?  Will we have tailbones just as they are (all a tailbone ever did for me as far as I know is make it hard to sit for very long) or an identical digestion system, a digestion system that is set up to be inefficient and that produces copious waste very inconveniently?  I see no reason to assume our current form is the height of progress; after all, even in mortality as a species we have been and are still evolving physically…is the end of evolution before we developed lactose intolerance in some populations or will all our perfect forms have that gene?  Or only some of them?  Our eternal environment will not be a perfect match to our mortal life, why would we have eternal bodies that are identical to ones that evolved to survive in a mortal, fallen environment?
 

Only a very few physical attributes have been defined as eternal.  A ‘programmed’ sexual attraction of any sort has not been one of them in my view.

Where does my partner who I can't imagine being separated from in the eternities fit in to your scenario?  Are all gay relationships just thrown out as not being important?  Am I expected to find some woman to share eternity with?  

Sounds like a completely messed up "heaven" constructed by straight men who want to spend eternity with their wives with no regard for other relationships. Maybe you or anyone else can explain how I might want to be a part of this "Plan of Happiness" that doesn't seem all that happy to me.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

And what, spit it out when they weren't looking? 

What other multiple ways, besides swallowing it (and I guess spitting it out when they weren't looking)?

That's why the broiled fish and honeycomb are powerful testimonies of the resurrection. They can eat, just like we can, even though they don't need to. 

What do you think about celestial polygamy? Would attraction just be tuned to however many wives a man has? 

If Jesus can turn water into wine, why not something that instantly evaporates?  If God can organize, why not unorganized?  Break the bonds that keep the food in a solid or liquid form?

Do we not teach that marriage will occur before the final judgment?  Is that not why we have proxy marriage ceremonies?  Do you believe we will continue to add spouses throughout eternity?  Do you believe that the Father has someone performing proxy marriage ceremonies for him throughout the eternities?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Where does my partner who I can't imagine being separated from in the eternities fit in to your scenario?  Are all gay relationships just thrown out as not being important?  Am I expected to find some woman to share eternity with?  

Sounds like a completely messed up "heaven" constructed by straight men who want to spend eternity with their wives with no regard for other relationships. Maybe you or anyone else can explain how I might want to be a part of this "Plan of Happiness" that doesn't seem all that happy to me.

Don’t have a clue.

[california boy]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

Don’t have a clue.

Thanks for your honest answer.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If an exalted or resurrected being walked into a room full of naked people, would they need to tell them to put clothes on or have to leave or would they see nakedness as a natural state and have no thoughts of what it would be like to have sex with any of these naked people or thoughts that if nurtured lead to that desire?

Uncomfortable Truth:

If the gods are omniscient than they already know what it would be like.

 

I suspect that part of the glories of the higher kingdoms is the enjoyment of the successes and joys of everyone else there and enjoying it as if it were you. No, I don't know how far that would extend.

[bOObOO]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Where does my partner who I can't imagine being separated from in the eternities fit in to your scenario?  Are all gay relationships just thrown out as not being important?  Am I expected to find some woman to share eternity with?  

Sounds like a completely messed up "heaven" constructed by straight men who want to spend eternity with their wives with no regard for other relationships. Maybe you or anyone else can explain how I might want to be a part of this "Plan of Happiness" that doesn't seem all that happy to me.

I'm not clear on whether or not people of the same sex will be allowed to have intimate sexual relations involving the sharing of their private body parts with each other in heaven as they can now on this earth. 

So until we get that cleared up I would not expect things in heaven to be allowed as they are here.

Edited September 22, 2021 by bOObOO

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Where does my partner who I can't imagine being separated from in the eternities fit in to your scenario?  Are all gay relationships just thrown out as not being important?  Am I expected to find some woman to share eternity with?  

Sounds like a completely messed up "heaven" constructed by straight men who want to spend eternity with their wives with no regard for other relationships. Maybe you or anyone else can explain how I might want to be a part of this "Plan of Happiness" that doesn't seem all that happy to me.

I have a plan. I will get into Celestial glory (this probably not happening is potentially the biggest flaw in the plan). Then I institute a change in the rules as to who can marry. I will marry both you and your partner and get you in. Then I marry you to him. Later on we can separate if you want but I promise I am a lot of fun.

Can't fail............

 

 

 

Probably can.

[bOObOO]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have a plan. I will get into Celestial glory (this probably not happening is potentially the biggest flaw in the plan). Then I institute a change in the rules as to who can marry. I will marry both you and your partner and get you in. Then I marry you to him. Later on we can separate if you want but I promise I am a lot of fun.

Can't fail............

 

 

 

Probably can.

This... is... serious... no... no... no... no... never... nevermind.

You... changing the rules... that was funny.

[jerryp48]

I'm late to this thread and so my apologies if this has been addressed but here's my take.  These are all my opinions and I'm open to being wrong.  I'm speaking very generally here and being intentionally blunt.

1) The numbers of LGBTQ+ members who accept the divinity claims of the LDS church are negligible and most are hostile to its existence.  

2) Since the LGBTQ+ community views the church as a wholly human institution anything short of the church changing its doctrine about homosexual sex or union is homophobic.

3) If given an option to either A) have the church change its doctrine or B) wipe the church from existence, they'd unflinchingly choose B.

4) Many who are hostile towards the church yet lukewarm to the LGBTQ+ community swell the numbers of the LGBTQ+ advocates in church matters mostly for the sake of subversiveness.  Those most vocal protesters would be the first ones criticizing the church as a human institution that bows to social pressure.

5) If the church changed its doctrine to appease the LGBTQ+ community it would do far more damage to the membership but it's doubtful that one tear would be shed by the LGBTQ+ community.

Speaking to the very few who have same-sex attraction AND believe in truth of the church I honestly can't say how they can achieve ultimate peace except through personal revelation and hopefully revelation forthcoming.

[bOObOO]

4 minutes ago, jerryp48 said:

I'm late to this thread and so my apologies if this has been addressed but here's my take.  These are all my opinions and I'm open to being wrong.  I'm speaking very generally here and being intentionally blunt.

1) The numbers of LGBTQ+ members who accept the divinity claims of the LDS church are negligible and most are hostile to its existence.  

2) Since the LGBTQ+ community views the church as a wholly human institution anything short of the church changing its doctrine about homosexual sex or union is homophobic.

3) If given an option to either A) have the church change its doctrine or B) wipe the church from existence, they'd unflinchingly choose B.

4) Many who are hostile towards the church yet lukewarm to the LGBTQ+ community swell the numbers of the LGBTQ+ advocates in church matters mostly for the sake of subversiveness.  Those most vocal protesters would be the first ones criticizing the church as a human institution that bows to social pressure.

5) If the church changed its doctrine to appease the LGBTQ+ community it would do far more damage to the membership but it's doubtful that one tear would be shed by the LGBTQ+ community.

Speaking to the very few who have same-sex attraction AND believe in truth of the church I honestly can't say how they can achieve ultimate peace except through personal revelation and hopefully revelation forthcoming.

Since the topic of this thread is What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church  I will respond to your points by adding some points which I believe the Church would concede if it hasn't already conceded:

1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone loving someone else whose sex is the same sex as oneself.  The taboo is only against intimate sexual relations involving sharing of private body parts for pleasure

2) We are all going to end up in a place with other people who are pretty much like us, and although there are 3 main categories for the realms of heaven each of those realms has an undisclosed number of divisions, possibly an infinite number

3) Our Father in heaven is a great deal more intelligent than all of us put together, and he loves all of us as we are and as we all have the potential to be as great as he is, so there really is no need for us to worry about this.  We will all be okay.  Literally.

[OGHoosier]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 

I suspect that part of the glories of the higher kingdoms is the enjoyment of the successes and joys of everyone else there and enjoying it as if it were you. No, I don't know how far that would extend.

I strongly believe that shared experience is part of the divine nature. I believe that, given that Christ experienced our pains during the Atonement, we can take it as a given that it is possible for divine beings to experience the experiences of others. It would make sense to me that part of heaven, part of deification, is undergoing the experiences of others, mourning with those who mourn and rejoicing with those who rejoice to the umpteenth degree.

Actually this helps with some aspects of the problem of evil as well. Huh.  

[jerryp48]

2 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Since the topic of this thread is What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church  I will respond to your points by adding some points which I believe the Church would concede if it hasn't already conceded:

1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone loving someone else whose sex is the same sex as oneself.  The taboo is only against intimate sexual relations involving sharing of private body parts for pleasure

2) We are all going to end up in a place with other people who are pretty much like us, and although there are 3 main categories for the realms of heaven each of those realms has an undisclosed number of divisions, possibly an infinite number

3) Our Father in heaven is a great deal more intelligent than all of us put together, and he loves all of us as we are and as we all have the potential to be as great as he is, so there really is no need for us to worry about this.  We will all be okay.  Literally.

Fair enough.

[Calm]

If being one with the Father and Christ is a significantly different experience than the communication that can occur between longtime, close companions where there is great understanding and support, this means to me the divine experience of being one with God will be much more fulfilling and awe inspiring and effective in communication and meeting needs than any current relationship we have. 
 

I wonder if we even need eternal marriage for emotional fulfillment in the eternities or if it only needs to exist because it produces something other relationships can’t, spirit children. 
 

I also wonder if this oneness would have the equivalent result of living someone else’s life…think of what happened to Picard in this ST episode:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
 

If it is not just a oneness of purpose, which is something mortals can participate in already, what are the aspects of our lives we can be “one” in and how would this be achieved?

Edited September 22, 2021 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

There is obedience…where we do something we wouldn’t normally do because we are commanded and we desire to please the Lord (or whoever else commands us).  There is a change of heart, where we do something no longer because we are commanded, but because we have become the type of person who does those things.  Think of it as the difference between someone who sees tithing as a chance to obey God and thus monthly chooses to pay tithing and someone who just automatically gives that portion because in their mind it belongs to God and there is no desire to possess it.

Does God need to control his thoughts about being sexually attracted to others besides his wife (or wives if you believe that)?  Does he have flashes of attraction that pop into his head that he then removes somehow or is it much more likely he looks on no one besides his wife with any sexual desire (this is not the same thing as being able to appreciate beauty).

If an exalted or resurrected being walked into a room full of naked people, would they need to tell them to put clothes on or have to leave or would they see nakedness as a natural state and have no thoughts of what it would be like to have sex with any of these naked people or thoughts that if nurtured lead to that desire?

Dear Lord, I hope we aren't naked. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Dear Lord, I hope we aren't naked. 

I think going swimming naked would be much more enjoyable, the feel of the water against the skin, the weightlessness…don’t really need support. 
 

I hope we can dress up in anything we can imagine rather than just wearing the same thing day in and day out like we were cartoon or video game characters who never change their appearance. And it would be fun to change body shape so as to be able to wear comfortably a much larger variety of clothing.

I love having long hair and short hair and hair of a variety of colors (it started out very light, went quite dark and is now getting light again).  I think it would be fun to be able to change hair color without using chemicals that stink. Would perfect hair be able to be bleached or would it be too healthy, too resistant to what is essentially intentionally damaging one’s hair?

 I would also love to vary my height, though if I had to choose only one height I would like a few more inches to better mesh with my husband when side by side and to no longer need a step to kiss without strain while standing.  

I would like to vary my age as well, but age just isn’t appearance, but experience, so how would that work?  Would I close off certain memories, alter hormones?  Or would I have control enough over my mind that I would just imagine myself as a child or youth and then imagine different experiences I wanted to enjoy at that age without the baggage of insecurities that were present in my mortal childhood.  

I would like to play sports and be decent at them, lose my fear of heights and climb mountains and paraglide…preferable without a paraglider.   
 

We have an eternity, I like the idea of exploration and development/changing of both the universe and myself. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, jerryp48 said:

I'm late to this thread and so my apologies if this has been addressed but here's my take.  These are all my opinions and I'm open to being wrong.  I'm speaking very generally here and being intentionally blunt.

1) The numbers of LGBTQ+ members who accept the divinity claims of the LDS church are negligible and most are hostile to its existence.  

2) Since the LGBTQ+ community views the church as a wholly human institution anything short of the church changing its doctrine about homosexual sex or union is homophobic.

3) If given an option to either A) have the church change its doctrine or B) wipe the church from existence, they'd unflinchingly choose B.

4) Many who are hostile towards the church yet lukewarm to the LGBTQ+ community swell the numbers of the LGBTQ+ advocates in church matters mostly for the sake of subversiveness.  Those most vocal protesters would be the first ones criticizing the church as a human institution that bows to social pressure.

5) If the church changed its doctrine to appease the LGBTQ+ community it would do far more damage to the membership but it's doubtful that one tear would be shed by the LGBTQ+ community.

Speaking to the very few who have same-sex attraction AND believe in truth of the church I honestly can't say how they can achieve ultimate peace except through personal revelation and hopefully revelation forthcoming.

The numbers are negligible. So those who fit into those categories are basically damned by default with very few exceptions? Interesting take. I wouldn’t bring it up if you are trying to make an argument for God’s goodness.

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think going swimming naked would be much more enjoyable, the feel of the water against the skin, the weightlessness…don’t really need support. 
 

I hope we can dress up in anything we can imagine rather than just wearing the same thing day in and day out like we were cartoon or video game characters who never change their appearance. And it would be fun to change body shape so as to be able to wear comfortably a much larger variety of clothing.

I love having long hair and short hair and hair of a variety of colors (it started out very light, went quite dark and is now getting light again).  I think it would be fun to be able to change hair color without using chemicals that stink. Would perfect hair be able to be bleached or would it be too healthy, too resistant to what is essentially intentionally damaging one’s hair?

 I would also love to vary my height, though if I had to choose only one height I would like a few more inches to better mesh with my husband when side by side and to no longer need a step to kiss without strain while standing.  

I would like to vary my age as well, but age just isn’t appearance, but experience, so how would that work?  Would I close off certain memories, alter hormones?  Or would I have control enough over my mind that I would just imagine myself as a child or youth and then imagine different experiences I wanted to enjoy at that age without the baggage of insecurities that were present in my mortal childhood.  

I would like to play sports and be decent at them, lose my fear of heights and climb mountains and paraglide…preferable without a paraglider.   
 

We have an eternity, I like the idea of exploration and development/changing of both the universe and myself. 

I want to breathe underwater and swim with the penguins ( they glide under the water) I also want to fly like a bird and soar over every land and get a bird’s eye view. I want the ability to see actual events in history, like a live action film. 

[california boy]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:24 PM, bOObOO said:

I'm not clear on whether or not people of the same sex will be allowed to have intimate sexual relations involving the sharing of their private body parts with each other in heaven as they can now on this earth. 

So until we get that cleared up I would not expect things in heaven to be allowed as they are here.

I don't think the main reason why I want to spend eternity with my partner is because I want to have sex with him.  I know, weird huh.