How to recognize the spirit (+more)

[The Nehor]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:58 PM, Rain said:

I have never once heard this or caught it.  Where are you guys getting this?  I've heard lots of things about the Spirit and action, but not about this specific idea.

Never heard it either. I don’t believe it. I have had what I believe are doctrinal revelations that required no action on my part. I think I got them because I asked out of honest curiosity.

[CV75]

From D&C 46:

7 But ye are commanded in all things to ^aask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all ^bholiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, ^cconsidering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and ^dthanksgiving, that ye may not be ^eseduced by evil ^fspirits, or doctrines of devils, or the ^gcommandments of men; for some are of men [including yourself!], and others of devils.

8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived ^aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a ^asign that they may ^bconsume it upon their lusts.

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Never heard it either. I don’t believe it. I have had what I believe are doctrinal revelations that required no action on my part. I think I got them because I asked out of honest curiosity.

Haven't these prompted some sort of change in heart, perspective and behavior on your part, helping you become more "disciple-ous"?

[Rain]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Why would the Lord reveal something to you to just know about without doing anything about it? To not act on divine knowledge is the antithesis of faith.

So that I would be comforted when it happened - no action on my part necessary.  This has happened countless times for me.  One of those times it was a blessing for my mom - she did not have to tell me what happened because I already knew.  

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Rain

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Haven't these prompted some sort of change in heart, perspective and behavior on your part, helping you become more "disciple-ous"?

Uhhh…..sometimes. Some it just felt like a piece of information and I went “neat” and put it in place and it probably didn’t make me a better person at all. Maybe the change was really subtle?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

So that I would be comforted when it happened - no action on my part necessary.  This happened countless times for me.  One of those times it was a blessing for my mom - she did not have to tell me what happened because I already knew.  

 

A revelation to be comforted, with no advancement in your discipleship going forward? I think if you look back, you might find that it contributed somewhat to some improvement in faith.

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Uhhh…..sometimes. Some it just felt like a piece of information and I went “neat” and put it in place and it probably didn’t make me a better person at all. Maybe the change was really subtle?

Yes, I would hope; any little bit counts and may be hard to notice. It is part of the distilling upon the soul, little by little, drop by drop.

Edited August 3, 2021 by CV75

[Rain]

18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

A revelation to be comforted, with no advancement in your discipleship going forward? I think if you look back, you might find that it contributed somewhat to some improvement in faith.

First of all the idea was to take action based on what what inspired.  I didn't need to take any action for it.  And no, that specific time didn't increase my faith.  Some of the others may have, but not all.  

But still, unless I have missed it - Hamba is the only one who has answered my question and it has all come from his own experience. Where can you find this idea, "  If they require no action, they are not of the Spirit."

[Rain]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Why would the Lord reveal something to you to just know about without doing anything about it? To not act on divine knowledge is the antithesis of faith.

Why would he not let me know about something which required no action.  I tell my kids lots of things that don't require action on their part.  I tell them "my friend had a birthday today" and I don't require or even expect them to send a birthday greeting to them.  I tell them what it means to calibrate my insulin pump, but I don't expect them to every do it.  I excitedly tell them, "it's 12:34!", but I don't expect them to look or get excited.  

I think sometimes Heavenly Father just tells us things that might be interesting or that might comfort us. no requirement on our part necessary.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

Why would he not let me know about something which required no action.  I tell my kids lots of things that don't require action on their part.  I tell them "my friend had a birthday today" and I don't require or even expect them to send a birthday greeting to them.  I tell them what it means to calibrate my insulin pump, but I don't expect them to every do it.  I excitedly tell them, "it's 12:34!", but I don't expect them to look or get excited.  

I think sometimes Heavenly Father just tells us things that might be interesting or that might comfort us. no requirement on our part necessary.

I think all those things you tell your children are so they can exercise their minds and actions in nurturing human connections and their awareness and use of the world around them. This may not be your conscious intent, but if you think about it, I think you might agree that this is what is going on and what you have observed and experienced. 

11 hours ago, Rain said:

First of all the idea was to take action based on what what inspired.  I didn't need to take any action for it.  And no, that specific time didn't increase my faith.  Some of the others may have, but not all.  

But still, unless I have missed it - Hamba is the only one who has answered my question and it has all come from his own experience. Where can you find this idea, "  If they require no action, they are not of the Spirit."

I have not seen a scriptural example where this is not the case. All revelations require action on the part of the recipient, otherwise the blessings are not received. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think all those things you tell your children are so they can exercise their minds and actions in nurturing human connections and their awareness and use of the world around them. This may not be your conscious intent, but if you think about it, I think you might agree that this is what is going on and what you have observed and experienced. 

This is the second time you have said this.  You are assuming I haven't thought about it and that you can know what my experiences are. Stop.

 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I have not seen a scriptural example where this is not the case. All revelations require action on the part of the recipient,

 

Show me in the scriptures or conference talks where "all" revelations require action. In other words, CFR.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

otherwise the blessings are not received. 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is the second time you have said this.  You are assuming I haven't thought about it and that you can know what my experiences are. Stop.

 

 

Show me in the scriptures or conference talks where "all" revelations require action. In other words, CFR.

 

I suggest you google "faith as a principle of power"  - in other words, action. and you will find many such statements.   Faith is itself taking action on revelation.

Everything we do takes faith.   Just wait until you have doubt that you can walk across the room, have faith you can, and feel that faith fulfilled when you reach the other side!

It takes faith that your legs will not fail you just to get out of your chair sometimes.

Here's the first thing that popped up from my search:

Quote

 

Understanding that faith is a principle of action and of power inspires us to exercise our moral agency in compliance with gospel truth, invites the redeeming and strengthening powers of the Savior's Atonement into our lives, and enlarges the power within us whereby we are agents unto ourselves (see D&C 58:28).

 

 

 

58:

Quote

 

25 Wherefore, let them bring their families to this land, as they shall acounsel between themselves and me.

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

27 Verily I say, men should be aanxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are aagents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their breward.

29 But he that adoeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with bdoubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is cdamned.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I suggest you google "faith as a principle of power"  - in other words, action. and you will find many such statements.   Faith is itself taking action on revelation.

Everything we do takes faith.   Just wait until you have doubt that you can walk across the room, have faith you can, and feel that faith fulfilled when you reach the other side!

It takes faith that your legs will not fail you just to get out of your chair sometimes.

 

CFRs mean those who make the claim show the reference or withdraw it not that you tell the person asking for it to google.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Rain said:

CFRs mean those who make the claim show the reference or withdraw it not that you tell the person asking for it to google.

I see.

So it's a debate between people and I am interfering in "who wins".   I thought it was about discussing the gospel.

CV knows this stuff a lot better than I do anyway- I am sure he will give you a good run for "second place" in a two person debate then.

I edited that post anyway.

[Nofear]

On 7/31/2021 at 6:18 PM, Fether said:

Its the age old question, how do we recognize the spirit? How do we differentiate between my feelings and the spirit?

Blake Ostler's article is a pretty good response in my opinion. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2007/spiritual-experiences-as-the-basis-for-belief-and-commitment

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I see.

So it's a debate between people and I am interfering in "who wins".   I thought it was about discussing the gospel.

CV knows this stuff a lot better than I do anyway- I am sure he will give you a good run for "second place" in a two person debate then.

I edited that post anyway.

Wanting someone to show their references for something that they are saying is a fact does not change a discussion into a contest about who wins.  

[Rain]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I see.

So it's a debate between people and I am interfering in "who wins".   I thought it was about discussing the gospel.

Seriously?  Y'all are trying to read my mind again?

Let me be clear.  I do NOT like to debate these things.  I am NOT one that comes here for debate. I  HATE the idea that one person wins and I am very much for Covey's win/win situation and I work hard to do that.

I was discussing the gospel. This was a new concept I had never heard of before.  I wanted to see where others were finding it so I could read up on it.

Hamba at least told me that it was his own experience.  But otherwise I am being talked down to and no one is providing the info. 

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

CV knows this stuff a lot better than I do anyway- I am sure he will give you a good run for "second place" in a two person debate then.

I edited that post anyway.

Edit: oh, and I only said CFR because after several times of asking where it was found and not being given the info I figured I must not be clear about it. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wanting someone to show their references for something that they are saying is a fact does not change a discussion into a contest about who wins.  

No that was not my point.   The issue as I see it is: Are we here to learn more about the gospel, or are we here to win debates?

There are so many references available with a quick google search that it appeared to me that what was being sought was a response that would TEACH the principle and not necessarily be soley from the one making the assertion that provoked the CFR.

IMO this is all about learning more about the gospel, and I see no reason for waiting for a response from the one who received the CFR with such an abundance of information available unless one this is a personal dispute between the parties.  I cannot see it any other way

I apologize if I have offended someone.

 

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Rain said:

Seriously?  Y'all are trying to read my mind again?

Let me be clear.  I do NOT like to debate these things.  I am NOT one that comes here for debate. I  HATE the idea that one person wins and I am very much for Covey's win/win situation and I work hard to do that.

I was discussing the gospel. This was a new concept I had never heard of before.  I wanted to see where others were finding it so I could read up on it.

Hamba at least told me that it was his own experience.  But othwerwise I am being talked down to and no one is providing the info. 

 

Well yes I suppose that any communication can be interpreted as "trying to read their mind", since yes, you are trying to understand their thoughts.

I don't see that as offensive, but if you do, I apologize. 

Google can provide the info in seconds.

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No that was not my point.   The issue as I see it is: Are we here to learn more about the gospel, or are we here to win debates?

There are so many references available with a quick google search that it appeared to me that what was being sought was a response that would TEACH the principle and not necessarily be soley from the one making the assertion that provoked the CFR.

IMO this is all about learning more about the gospel, and I see no reason for waiting for a response from the one who received the CFR with such an abundance of information available unless one this is a personal dispute between the parties.  I cannot see it any other way

I apologize if I have offended someone.

 

Rain isn't trying to win a debate, she's trying to learn more about the gospel.  Some posters are telling her that the gospel works a certain way and she wants the references that support that claim so she can study them. 

How does your response to her about bowing out because you didn't realize the discussion was about winning, fit?

[mfbukowski]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Rain isn't trying to win a debate, she's trying to learn more about the gospel.  Some posters are telling her that the gospel works a certain way and she wants the references that support that claim so she can study them. 

How does your response to her about bowing out because you didn't realize the discussion was about winning, fit?

Oh my gosh.

If she wants to learn something, look it up. It's all right there.

If you want to argue about who did what to whom and why, and who is offended by what and a host of other personal feelings I am out

Better yet, I am just out, period.

Edited August 3, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Rain]

I'm going to try to simplify where I am coming from this so I am only quoting what I think are relevant parts to my question.  If you feel I have missed relevant parts please show me where.

Fether: 

How to recognize the spirit (+more)

What about spiritual confirmations that are later proven false, have no merit to our lives, or are clearly against our beliefs? Not promptings about action, but about doctrine and truth?

(List of spiritual confirmations that are later proven false)

none of these require action… it’s just a spiritual experience that tells you “this is true”

Hamba:

It has always been my experience that God speaks to us in order to spur action.

It has likewise been my personal experience that spiritual promptings are only confirmed in the process of acting upon them.

Fether:

There was a thread a few weeks back where 2 or 3 other forum members insisted they had spiritual confirmation for some somewhat obscure doctrine. I pointed out that I dont think the HG confirms doctrine, but rather courses of action.

 

-------------

Fether: I am just trying to figure out if there is anything to this.

Rain comment on conversation: Me too - just trying to figure it out, but starting from sort of the opposite direction. 

-----------

 

CV75:

Two ideas for judging yourself and your experiences, but not others:

...

2. If they require no action, they are not of the Spirit.... 

Rain:

I have never once heard this or caught it.  Where are you guys getting this?  I've heard lots of things about the Spirit and action, but not about this specific idea.

Rain comment on conversation: I could have asked this better.  I meant "where do you find that all revelation requires action?"

CV75:

Why would the Lord reveal something to you to just know about without doing anything about it? To not act on divine knowledge is the antithesis of faith.

Rain comment on conversation:  now I can see where Mark was going with the faith part.  I am not asking about the faith part.  I am asking for a reference of the idea of all revelation requires action.

 

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

From D&C 46:

7 But ye are commanded in all things to ^aask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all ^bholiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, ^cconsidering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and ^dthanksgiving, that ye may not be ^eseduced by evil ^fspirits, or doctrines of devils, or the ^gcommandments of men; for some are of men [including yourself!], and others of devils.

8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived ^aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a ^asign that they may ^bconsume it upon their lusts.

Rain question on conversation:  Would you please bold the part where see it saying that all revelation requires action?  I am not seeing it. 

CV75:

...All revelations require action on the part of the recipient, otherwise the blessings are not received. 

Rain question on conversation: 

mfbukowski: please share where you find this.

...Faith is itself taking action on revelation....

Rain comment on conversation:  Yes.  That is apparent to me.  What I am not aware of is anywhere that says that all revelation requires action.   

I hope that makes what I am asking clearer.  

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Rain

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 

Better yet, I am just out, period.

Probably a good idea.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

she wants to learn something, look it up. It's all right there.

Really?  Aren’t you the person all about interpretation and how others will see things as they are?  How do you know that Rain hasn’t read the same stuff and understood it differently?  
 

Someone pointing out exactly what they used for their conclusions will allow the other to either see it as ‘they are reading too much into something that doesn’t say that’ or perhaps ‘I never saw that implication before’ or some other variation of a new reaction to familiar teachings.  Requiring them to find it on their own because it will be obvious to them sounds closer to an inerrantist, scripture can only be interpreted one way position….which I have gotten the idea you don’t hold. 
 

If this is so commonly taught that any search plainly brings it up, the implication is Rain hasn’t been studying all that much to have missed all these many plain references out there….instead of the more likely event of she has not interpreted teachings all have read in the same way. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

21 hours ago, CV75 said:

Haven't these prompted some sort of change in heart, perspective and behavior on your part, helping you become more "disciple-ous"?

One of the more common revelations I have received has been “this is not your burden”, often with the addition of “to take from them”.  And I do nothing differently in my life, it doesn’t change my heart (I am just as concerned and emotionally connected with the person and spiritually connected with the Lord hopefully as before), my perception of the gospel (I already knew the principle that people are their own agents), or my role as a disciple (I am just as likely to step in or step out of serving others and God as before).

Edited August 3, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Nofear said:

Blake Ostler's article is a pretty good response in my opinion. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2007/spiritual-experiences-as-the-basis-for-belief-and-commitment

I have been trying to explain his exact points, and he tells us the exact same think VERY clearly.

@CV75 - please check this out!