How to recognize the spirit (+more)

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

One of the more common revelations I have received has been “this is not your burden”, often with the addition of “to take from them”.  And I do nothing differently in my life, it doesn’t change my heart (I am just as concerned and emotionally connected with the person and spiritually connected with the Lord hopefully as before), my perception of the gospel (I already knew the principle that people are their own agents), or my role as a disciple (I am just as likely to step in or step out of serving others and God as before).

And of course you have not remembered this lesson either, and so you keep repeating the same mistake, right?

Just as we all do?

Even you mentioning it here indicates this knowledge has suggested action to you which you have not taken, or should NOT take.  It is still about how you DO something to change yourself- in this case what you DO is IGNORE the impulse.

I wish I had a buck for every impulse I have NOT taken because of my faith prohibiting it.

This is all about moral decisions - what to do and what not to do- but it is still about DOING. 

It reminds me about folks who want to find out what reality "really is" when it is so obviousl that we can only know what we THINK reality is.

It's so remarkably frustrating.

Why is this principle so difficult?  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

One of the more common revelations I have received has been “this is not your burden”, often with the addition of “to take from them”.  And I do nothing differently in my life, it doesn’t change my heart (I am just as concerned and emotionally connected with the person and spiritually connected with the Lord hopefully as before), my perception of the gospel (I already knew the principle that people are their own agents), or my role as a disciple (I am just as likely to step in or step out of serving others and God as before).

What I am saying is that acting or following through on the revelation that “this is not your burden to take from them” is to not take away their burden. By heeding and doing other things, you are acting on it, and your concern and emotional connection with them, and your spiritual connection with the Lord (according to the design of the plan of happiness and spiritual progress) increases.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I have been trying to explain his exact points, and he tells us the exact same think VERY clearly.

@CV75 - please check this out!

I will soon if it counters what I've been saying and I will stop saying it until I get a chance to read it it. Thank you!

 

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What I am saying is that acting or following through on the revelation that “this is not your burden to take from them” is to not take away their burden. By heeding and doing other things, you are acting on it, and your concern and emotional connection with them, and your spiritual connection with the Lord (according to the design of the plan of happiness and spiritual progress) increases.

So I understand what you are saying here, but I would still like a reference for all revelation requiring action.  I am sincerely asking for it so I can read more about it.  

I feel so frustrated that I have to beg for this.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

This is the second time you have said this.  You are assuming I haven't thought about it and that you can know what my experiences are. Stop.

 

 

Show me in the scriptures or conference talks where "all" revelations require action. In other words, CFR.

 

Yes, it may be the second time I have said it but I do not mean to convey that I think you haven’t thought about it. It is intended to be an invitation to understand my experience, how I have thought about it, etc.

For the CFR, they are so numerous I do not know where to begin. Here is a recent one from President Nelson: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/01/grow-into-the-principle-of-revelation?lang=eng , especially the section, “How We Hear Him”:

“If we will stay on our knees for a while after we finish our prayer, thoughts, feelings, and direction will come into our mind. Recording those impressions will help us remember what actions the Lord would have us take.”

If we count feelings of divine love and comfort as revelation, then thoughts and direction will follow.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

By heeding and doing other things, you are acting on it, and your concern and emotional connection with them, and your spiritual connection with the Lord (according to the design of the plan of happiness and spiritual progress) increases.

But this is trivial and the same as any choice, even no choice leads to a different destination (alternate timeline if a sci-fi fan). This is not something attached specifically for revelation.  I was given information that helped me decide what, if any step to take.  But then I get that from doctors, here, searches on the internet. That is just life happening. Nothing unique to revelation and therefore may have little to no impact on me.  
 

In a few situations it was life altering because it changed my approach to my kids which was more thinking I could and should solve their problems for them, an attitude inherited from my parents. 
 

But other times it was no more impact on myself or others than if God had told me not to take over the extra loaf of bread I was thinking of sharing with my neighbors…maybe he knew they only ate whole wheat, so why waste the effort.
 

So I get to keep a loaf of bread or that hour or week or more of my time or the extra bedroom won’t be occupied. Nothing changes for me. My concern for the other remains the same though it would have likely been deepened if I had been instructed to act rather than not to act, my connection with the Lord doesn’t increase usually because of that type of revelation. I don’t get better at receiving revelation with these small moments, but by putting additional effort into seeking him. At most it is confirmation to me the system works, but I knew that before and it usually doesn’t deepen my belief that he is there for me. That is so baked into my bones it would take a drastic not being there for me to change my belief. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

So I understand what you are saying here, but I would still like a reference for all revelation requiring action.  I am sincerely asking for it so I can read more about it.  

I feel so frustrated that I have to beg for this.

I do not mean to make you beg, and I certainly do not want to force my views on anyone. I respect your experience and will try to come up with more references if the one I just posted does not suffice.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And of course you have not remembered this lesson either, and so you keep repeating the same mistake, right?

I learned the lesson long ago in most cases.
 

What mistake?  Sometimes it is appropriate to take on burdens, sometimes it is not. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

But this is trivial and the same as any choice, even no choice leads to a different destination (alternate timeline if a sci-fi fan). This is not something attached specifically for revelation.  I was given information that helped me decide what, if any step to take. In a few situations it was life altering because it changed my approach to my kids which was more thinking I could and should solve their problems for them, an attitude inherited from my parents. 
 

But other times it was no more impact on myself or others than if God had told me not to take over the extra loaf of bread I was thinking of sharing with my neighbors…maybe he knew they only ate whole wheat, so why waste the effort.
 

So I get to keep a loaf of bread or that hour or week or more of my time or the extra bedroom won’t be occupied. Nothing changes for me. My concern for the other remains the same though it would have likely been deepened if I had been instructed to act rather than not to act, my connection with the Lord doesn’t increase usually because of that type of revelation. I don’t get better at receiving revelation with these small moments, but by putting additional effort into seeking him. At most it is confirmation to me the system works, but I knew that before and it usually doesn’t deepen my belief that he is there for me. That is so baked into my bones it would take a drastic not being there for me to change my belief. 

Of course we can choose to act on revelation or not, but the divine expectation, I believe, is that we progress, even in small things and in small degrees.

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, it may be the second time I have said it but I do not mean to convey that I think you haven’t thought about it. It is intended to be an invitation to understand my experience, how I have thought about it, etc. 

When you gave me that invitation did you also consider my experiences could be different than yours and it wouldn't necessarily mean I had missed something?

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

For the CFR, they are so numerous I do not know where to begin. Here is a recent one from President Nelson: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/01/grow-into-the-principle-of-revelation?lang=eng , especially the section, “How We Hear Him”:

“If we will stay on our knees for a while after we finish our prayer, thoughts, feelings, and direction will come into our mind. Recording those impressions will help us remember what actions the Lord would have us take.”

If we count feelings of divine love and comfort as revelation, then thoughts and direction will follow.

Please know I am not trying to argue here. I truly am not.  I am aware of what was said on the quote above and agree with it. I agreed with the idea when I first started asking for references.

The place were I struggle is "all" and "requires". I don't struggle because I disbelieve them.  I struggle because I have never seen those assertions before and would like to learn more.

Your quote doesn't have those kind of assertions. It does show how an action of prayer will lead to revelation which can lead to more action.  But it doesn't say anything like "if you receive inspiration it will always require action of you."

 

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, Rain said:

When you gave me that invitation did you also consider my experiences could be different than yours and it wouldn't necessarily mean I had missed something?

Please know I am not trying to argue here. I truly am not.  I am aware of what was said on the quote above and agree with it. I agreed with the idea when I first started asking for references.

The place were I struggle is "all" and "requires". I don't struggle because I disbelieve them.  I struggle because I have never seen those assertions before and would like to learn more.

Your quote doesn't have those kind of assertions. It does show how an action of prayer will lead to revelation which can lead to more action.  But it doesn't say anything like "if you receive inspiration it will always require action of you."

 

I very much related to your experience, at least at the point where I picked up the dialog: ["So that I would be comforted when it happened - no action on my part necessary.  This has happened countless times for me.  One of those times it was a blessing for my mom - she did not have to tell me what happened because I already knew."]. If there was prior post with another or more detailed description, I did not read it. Because I related to it, I could easily invite you to see how it led to the "rest of the story."

As I mentioned before, there are so many I do not know where to begin, but I will try. At this point, it might come across as proof-texting or cherry-picking since I didn't lead out with references but just conversation. I think the article I Inked to allows an interpretation of "all" and "required". Action is always required in order to progress.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/women-of-covenant-the-importance-of-seeking-and-acting-on-revelation?lang=eng

"We shouldn’t wait to be acted upon; we need to have the courage to act on the revelation that we receive."

From D&C 82:

4 Ye call upon my name for ^arevelations [or peace or comfort], and I give them unto you [and sometimes even when you don't ask]; and inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings [or advance my peace or comfort], which I give unto you, ye become transgressors; and ^bjustice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by CV75

[Rain]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I very much related to your experience, at least at the point where I picked up the dialog: ["So that I would be comforted when it happened - no action on my part necessary.  This has happened countless times for me.  One of those times it was a blessing for my mom - she did not have to tell me what happened because I already knew."]. If there was prior post with another or more detailed description, I did not read it. Because I related to it, I could easily invite you to see how it led to the "rest of the story."

As I mentioned before, there are so many I do not know where to begin, but I will try. At this point, it might come across as proof-texting or cherry-picking since I didn't lead out with references but just conversation. 

I'm not worried.  I think there are times you need to be worried about that and times you don't. In these instance it doesn't matter to me because I can now feel you are trying.

 

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the article I Inked to allows an interpretation of "all" and "required". Action is always required in order to progress.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/women-of-covenant-the-importance-of-seeking-and-acting-on-revelation?lang=eng 

I'll read this a little latter when I can concentrate better.

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

"We shouldn’t wait to be acted upon; we need to have the courage to act on the revelation that we receive."

I agree with this.  I've often told people when you pray that you should be ready to act if you sincerely want an answer.

But I don't think this counters the idea that God just might occasionally drop little bits of light where no action is expected. 

Which now that I wrote that - it may make you laugh when I tell you I have a blog where I drop little bits of light that I hope people act upon.

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

From D&C 82:

4 Ye call upon my name for ^arevelations [or peace or comfort], and I give them unto you [and sometimes even when you don't ask]; and inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings [or advance my peace or comfort], which I give unto you, ye become transgressors; and ^bjustice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law.

 

I'm not seeing it there either.  Sorry. 

I'll read the article and respond there later.

[Nofear]

For a fun monkey-wrench, let's add a bit of a potential parallel. Ancient humans didn't have a word for blue. Homer never uses it, the Hebrew bible doesn't, and pretty much everybody else (the ancient Egyptians did). It's not that blue didn't exist but humans didn't readily distinguish it as something different. Similarly, I have experienced and continue experience perceptions that are categorically different than other perceptions. In LDS theology we have a term to describe it -- the Spirit. Giving it a word helps us recognize it. Many around the world may well experience the Spirit from time to time and not "know" it (see Romans 10:14).

 

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

Really?  Aren’t you the person all about interpretation and how others will see things as they are?  How do you know that Rain hasn’t read the same stuff and understood it differently?  

Were did I say I am the only one with a right interpretation?  I never mentioned the subject!

All I said was to google it for INFORMATION not INTERPRETATION-   This is how it works: 1- look it up.  2- Interpret it.   Got it?   Two different steps 

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Nofear said:

For a fun monkey-wrench, let's add a bit of a potential parallel. Ancient humans didn't have a word for blue. Homer never uses it, the Hebrew bible doesn't, and pretty much everybody else (the ancient Egyptians did). It's not that blue didn't exist but humans didn't readily distinguish it as something different. Similarly, I have experienced and continue experience perceptions that are categorically different than other perceptions. In LDS theology we have a term to describe it -- the Spirit. Giving it a word helps us recognize it. Many around the world may well experience the Spirit from time to time and not "know" it (see Romans 10:14).

 

And THIS is why it is said there was no "death before the fall"

Before the fall there were no humans and no languages- and at first humans, who were hunters and gatherers, had no idea that what they were doing to that bird was "death" because it was just a bird.  It didn't "die"- there was no mourning, no fuss- it was just dinner.

Did dinosaurs "die"?   Not in any human sense- their bodies were simply part of the carbon cycle- they ran around for a while and then stopped running and became part of the earth again.

There are tons of words like this.  "Existence" is one of them!  We don't even have a word for "non-existence" either- it is not a "Thing".   Try to define "existence".   Good luck

[Rain]

22 hours ago, CV75 said:

I very much related to your experience, at least at the point where I picked up the dialog: ["So that I would be comforted when it happened - no action on my part necessary.  This has happened countless times for me.  One of those times it was a blessing for my mom - she did not have to tell me what happened because I already knew."]. If there was prior post with another or more detailed description, I did not read it. Because I related to it, I could easily invite you to see how it led to the "rest of the story."

As I mentioned before, there are so many I do not know where to begin, but I will try. At this point, it might come across as proof-texting or cherry-picking since I didn't lead out with references but just conversation. I think the article I Inked to allows an interpretation of "all" and "required". Action is always required in order to progress.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/women-of-covenant-the-importance-of-seeking-and-acting-on-revelation?lang=eng

"We shouldn’t wait to be acted upon; we need to have the courage to act on the revelation that we receive."

From D&C 82:

4 Ye call upon my name for ^arevelations [or peace or comfort], and I give them unto you [and sometimes even when you don't ask]; and inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings [or advance my peace or comfort], which I give unto you, ye become transgressors; and ^bjustice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law.

 

Thanks for the article.  I am seeing the connection again between revelation and action, but still it doesn't give the impression that you must have action for all revelation.  

Yesterday I was willing to think that might be the case and just wanted to see evidence and then more how that works.  As I have been thinking about it more and more though - as a mom sometimes I just give my children love with nothing expected in return. Obviously I want things in return at least some of the time, but the idea that there is an expectation of return for my love every time just...ruins it.  

So the more I think about it the more I'm comfortable with the idea that Heavenly Father gives us revelation in the form of love without an expectation of action sometimes.  

So I'm not going to fight against any quotes you might find that actually says all revelation requires action (and I still would like to learn from them if you do! 🙂 ), but I feel it's less likely that you are going to find it.  

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

Thanks for the article.  I am seeing the connection again between revelation and action, but still it doesn't give the impression that you must have action for all revelation.  

Yesterday I was willing to think that might be the case and just wanted to see evidence and then more how that works.  As I have been thinking about it more and more though - as a mom sometimes I just give my children love with nothing expected in return. Obviously I want things in return at least some of the time, but the idea that there is an expectation of return for my love every time just...ruins it.  

So the more I think about it the more I'm comfortable with the idea that Heavenly Father gives us revelation in the form of love without an expectation of action sometimes.  

So I'm not going to fight against any quotes you might find that actually says all revelation requires action (and I still would like to learn from them if you do! 🙂 ), but I feel it's less likely that you are going to find it.  

When someone says they give their children love with nothing expected in return, I think of this on two levels. On a transactional level, that is absolutely the case (“Love, therefore, is its own reward.” – per Thomas Merton -- or the “pure love of Christ” per Moroni 7”47). On the relational and transformational levels (per the Lord’s Intercessory Prayer, John 17), there is an expectation, or hope, that the children will be inspired to likewise love others.

[The Nehor]

On 8/3/2021 at 4:40 PM, mfbukowski said:

It reminds me about folks who want to find out what reality "really is" when it is so obviousl that we can only know what we THINK reality is.

It's so remarkably frustrating.

Why is this principle so difficult?  

Sometimes it seems like all of humanity has a god-complex and seems to think they should be able to know absolute reality and know everything.

Probably some Freudian thing about replacing our parents or something. 🤔

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Were did I say I am the only one with a right interpretation? 

That is not what I said at all…great example for how interpretations can vary so widely from the same words and why we need to offer up what we believe says something rather than assume others will be able to find it on their own.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

I wonder what posters think of the principles that (1) the Lord's revelations (whether in the form of knowledge, protection, comfort, peace -- thoughts or feelings or interventions) are always for our spiritual progress, and (2) that our action is always required in order to progress.

[Navidad]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:38 PM, Calm said:

Really?  Aren’t you the person all about interpretation and how others will see things as they are?  How do you know that Rain hasn’t read the same stuff and understood it differently?  

Isn't this exactly the reason why different Christian groups and/or denominations exist? Methinks it is is more common than not to "read the same stuff" and understand it differently. That is why I am not a fan of dogma or certitude. My "understander" is often different, but not better than that of others! It is challenging to receive someone's different understandings, but it is so important to learning and growth.