Orthodox christianity

[poptart]

Curious if anyone here is involved with or knows much about Orthodox Christianity.  Been reading up about AK and talking to friends, their Orthodox communities up there are still stellar.  Even down here they do interesting work.  Something i'm considering as time goes on, associating with groups that not only have good people but also find ways to keep their communities healthy and sound.  

https://www.stjohnalaska.org

Knew about these guys growing up, read a bit about them as well.  From what i've heard it's one of the few places in the states where you can live in a small, Christian community like you used to be able to decades ago.  When I left AK as a small child in the late 90s there were still communities where families grew up in local congregations, parishes etc.  Down here?  Outside of networking or joining a church/parish for their kids school?  Not so much it was all a business that wore the Christian mantle.  Older I get, more these small communities appeal to me.  

[Calm]

There used to be an Orthodox poster, but I don’t remember seeing them around lately. 
 

added:  I may have conflated posters, I think the one I was thinking of is actually Catholic. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

There used to be an Orthodox poster, but I don’t remember seeing them around lately. 
 

added:  I may have conflated posters, I think the one I was thinking of is actually Catholic. 

My guess is Catholic, the Orthodox are still kind of insular from what i've seen.  It's funny, there's a nice Orthodox Church nearby where a friend used to live, think once things settle down a bit i'll pay them a visit. St. Herman of Alaska looks like a neat guy.

[InCognitus]

58 minutes ago, poptart said:

Curious if anyone here is involved with or knows much about Orthodox Christianity.

I've had a few rare encounters with people of the Orthodox faith, and I always enjoy talking with them.  I've found that there are doctrines and ideas that we have in common, and of course others that we don't have in common.  But they are different things in common or not in common than everyone else, so it's fun.  One of the guys I knew from a multi-denominational Bible study I used to attend took me to lunch with an Orthodox fellow, and he and my friend introduced me to the Ancient Faith Ministries podcast (link here).  It has been a few years since I listened to any of them, but I was especially interested in their podcasts on the topic of Sola Scriptura.

I also used to listen to the Bible Answer Man radio show in the early 2000's, which at that time was hosted by Hank Hanegraaff, an Evangelical Christian that was following in the footsteps and tradition of his predecessor (Walter Martin).  I lost track of that show and lost interest, and I was somewhat surprised to find out that Hank Hanegraaff converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity in 2017.  Strange things can happen!

[poptart]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I've had a few rare encounters with people of the Orthodox faith, and I always enjoy talking with them.  I've found that there are doctrines and ideas that we have in common, and of course others that we don't have in common.  But they are different things in common or not in common than everyone else, so it's fun.  One of the guys I knew from a multi-denominational Bible study I used to attend took me to lunch with an Orthodox fellow, and he and my friend introduced me to the Ancient Faith Ministries podcast (link here).  It has been a few years since I listened to any of them, but I was especially interested in their podcasts on the topic of Sola Scriptura.

I also used to listen to the Bible Answer Man radio show in the early 2000's, which at that time was hosted by Hank Hanegraaff, an Evangelical Christian that was following in the footsteps and tradition of his predecessor (Walter Martin).  I lost track of that show and lost interest, and I was somewhat surprised to find out that Hank Hanegraaff converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity in 2017.  Strange things can happen!

Thing with the Orthodox, they do tend to not only say it like it is, they have it backed up with well over 1000 years of solid theological education and learning.  Something about the Orthodox, they understand loss, they've had to fight for their existence in parts of the world while people here just ignored them.  They also allow their clergy to get married, I think that's a good thing.  I get the argument, they wanted to keep priestly positions and property in the churches name but still, when I look at the pedo problems the church is having, I think having a help mate to keep clergy in check is a very sound, biblical option.  

[3DOP]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

There used to be an Orthodox poster, but I don’t remember seeing them around lately. 
 

added:  I may have conflated posters, I think the one I was thinking of is actually Catholic. 

Calm, his name here, I think begins with Sp.... His participation here tends to support Traditional Catholic claims in my opinion.

Obviously, we don't flesh out Roman Catholic vs. Eastern Orthodox here. Almost invariably, the Catholic/Orthodox tend to agree together regarding issues that LDS folk tend to raise.

Edited April 27, 2021 by 3DOP

[Calm]

1 minute ago, 3DOP said:

Calm, his name here, I think begins with Sp.... His participation here tends to support Traditional Catholic claims in my opinion.

Obviously, we don't flesh out Roman Catholic vs. Eastern Orthodox here. Almost invariably, the Catholic/Orthodox tend to agree about issues that LDS folk tend to raise.

Spammer.  Said something about it was the “Catholic” tradition or something for him, so I assumed I misremembered.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Calm

[3DOP]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Spammer

Yup! I thought that would do the trick. 😁

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Spammer.  Said something about it was the “Catholic” tradition or something for him, so I assumed I misremembered.

Yes Spammer is the correct name

Many Orthodox beliefs are closer to LDS beliefs than Roman Catholic beliefs are. 

Read up a bit on Coptic orthodoxy - especially their confirmation ceremonies. 

https://www.copticchurch.net/introduction-to-the-coptic-church/sacraments/2_confirmation

Quote

 

THE ANOINTMENTS

The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows :

The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses

Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear

Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear

Whilst anointing, the priest says, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.  The anointment of grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen."

 

NOTES:

 

He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, "When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil" (Proverbs 2: 10-12).

Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: "You are not far from the Kingdom of God"  (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, "And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:7).

The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust.

The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person...

"If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless"  (James 1:26).

"If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).

"The tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison, it defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire by hell" (James 3:8,6), if it is not controlled.

The Psalmist prays, 'set a guard O Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over the door of my lips.  Do not incline my heart to any evil thing" (Psalm 141:3,4)

And the wise King Solomon said: "Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles" (Proverbs 21:23), and, "Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you" (Proverbs 4:24.  We ought to keep our tongue from sins such as swearing, insulting, lying, judging, and gossiping. Our words should always be graceful.

The Ears provide us with the important sense of hearing, which should also be controlled, and the anointing of the Myron is a strong weapon in control what we hear. We protect our ears from hearing such things as gossip, and other conversations which may poison our hearts with revenge and hatred. We also protect our ears from hearing certain songs which may poison our hearts with lustful thoughts.

The Eyes are the most important sense, through which enters more than 80% of information which may affect our hearts. If the information is holy, it sanctifies the heart, and vice versa. For this reason, we should control what we see so that we may keep ourselves pure. The tenth commandment says, "Do not covet". The Psalmist prays, "Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things" (Psalm 119:37), and, "Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law"  (Psalm 119:17).

 

The second group of four anointments are as follows :

The priest wets his right thumb with the Myron another time and anoints,

The heart (chest)

The navel

The back

The lower back

Whilst anointing the priest prays : "An anointment as a token for the kingdom of heaven," as this holy anointment makes the Holy Spirit works in us and prepares us for the inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven.

 

And on the article goes...

Edited April 27, 2021 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:02 PM, poptart said:

when I look at the pedo problems the church is having, I think having a help mate to keep clergy in check is a very sound, biblical option.  

I'm going to push back hard against this line of thinking. The belief that if you don't get married you're going to end up abusing children is whacked. Marriage doesn't prevent pedophilia and not having sex doesn't cause it.

Edited April 27, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Many Orthodox beliefs are closer to LDS beliefs than Roman Catholic beliefs are. 

Read up a bit on Coptic orthodoxy - especially their confirmation ceremonies. 

Those exact confirmation ceremonies are also found in the Roman Catholic Church.

Remember, the Catholic Church is made up of many churches. The largest and most well known is the Latin Church, which is what everyone thinks of when they say Catholic Church. But there are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches, too, that are very very similar to their corresponding Orthodox churches. The major difference is that an Eastern Catholic Church is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church (pretty much meaning that they accept that the Pope has primacy and supremacy among bishops).

The Coptic Orthodox Church in the article practices the Alexandrian Rite.

The Coptic Catholic Church also practices the Alexandrian Rite.

So, that confirmation is part of the Catholic Church  

[MiserereNobis]

There is a Ukrainian Orthodox chapel near my town. I've known the priest over many years. We live fairly close to each other and tend to end up at the same brewpub on Wednesday evenings (live old-timey music is the main draw). We've had some good discussions -- there's so much in common. He invited me to vespers once when his bishop was visiting. There was a dinner afterwards and me and my other Catholic friend got to sit next to the bishop as it turned out. It was very enjoyable conversation. I agree with Pope John Paul II that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the two lungs of (traditional) Christianity. I pray for the day that the schism is healed.

[poptart]

18 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm going to push back hard against this line of thinking. The belief that if you don't get married you're going to end up abusing children is whacked. Marriage doesn't prevent pedophilia.

Martin Luther had a few things to say about that......

Here's something from a retired cop cousin of mine.  Churches love to shove kids off on anyone, a lot of parents view them as glorified day care, same with say, sports.  I'll budge a bit considering this happened.

20 years, 700 victims: Southern Baptist sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms - Houston Chronicle

While it doesn't prevent pedophilia, it does help.   Something a Jesuit once told me, it has been going on for a while, problem is parents.  They know about it, thing is so long as their kids get good grades and make it to uni unscathed they do not care.  Sure, they'll happily post something on facebook about how bad they feel for the victims, that and how their kid got some scholarship....

 

 

 

[poptart]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

There is a Ukrainian Orthodox chapel near my town. I've known the priest over many years. We live fairly close to each other and tend to end up at the same brewpub on Wednesday evenings (live old-timey music is the main draw). We've had some good discussions -- there's so much in common. He invited me to vespers once when his bishop was visiting. There was a dinner afterwards and me and my other Catholic friend got to sit next to the bishop as it turned out. It was very enjoyable conversation. I agree with Pope John Paul II that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the two lungs of (traditional) Christianity. I pray for the day that the schism is healed.

I haven't been to a pub in years, where to these drinking clergy hang out?  I keep hoping i'll meet a friar Tuck someday,  that'd be cool.

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, poptart said:

I haven't been to a pub in years, where to these drinking clergy hang out?  I keep hoping i'll meet a friar Tuck someday,  that'd be cool.

"You just gotta poke around"

Orthodox Lent has some pretty strict fasting, so this Ukranian Orthodox church in my town has a huge feast after Pascha (Easter, coming up in a few days for them I believe). My understanding is that it is no holds barred on the vodka during the feast, which starts around 1:30 AM. I know a guy who used to attend and he said he would just bring his VW bus and crash out in the parking lot after rather than driving home.

[poptart]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

"You just gotta poke around"

Orthodox Lent has some pretty strict fasting, so this Ukranian Orthodox church in my town has a huge feast after Pascha (Easter, coming up in a few days for them I believe). My understanding is that it is no holds barred on the vodka during the feast, which starts around 1:30 AM. I know a guy who used to attend and he said he would just bring his VW bus and crash out in the parking lot after rather than driving home.

Lol geez pass on the vodka.  I know Eastern Euros can drink, think it's one of their superpowers.  I've had a few friends like that, if I smoked I'd be afraid to light up a cigarette around them.

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Those exact confirmation ceremonies are also found in the Roman Catholic Church.

Remember, the Catholic Church is made up of many churches. The largest and most well known is the Latin Church, which is what everyone thinks of when they say Catholic Church. But there are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches, too, that are very very similar to their corresponding Orthodox churches. The major difference is that an Eastern Catholic Church is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church (pretty much meaning that they accept that the Pope has primacy and supremacy among bishops).

The Coptic Orthodox Church in the article practices the Alexandrian Rite.

The Coptic Catholic Church also practices the Alexandrian Rite.

So, that confirmation is part of the Catholic Church  

I guess that makes us the Universal (Catholic) Church then- the Latter Day Josephian Rite.    

Ain't no way old joe could come up with this stuff hisself.  😝

And there is so much more from scapulars to communion rails veils, baptistries, signs of the cross, etc etc.

I used to have regular conversations - in the temple- with a former Catholic priest who was now a temple worker.

WOW!   I would love to publish that stuff- but of course it is never going to happen!

There IS a paper out there detailing a lot of what is publishable.  Can't remember the name of the writer- will keep trying.

 

[3DOP]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm going to push back hard against this line of thinking. The belief that if you don't get married you're going to end up abusing children is whacked. Marriage doesn't prevent pedophilia and not having sex doesn't cause it.

Exactly right. Thank you.

Someone that is sexually aroused by children is fit neither for the priesthood nor for married life. If they are also torn because they are inclined towards the Catholic religion, such a person should be allowed to escape temptation (including the internet), in a monastery. If they live in other society than that, they will lose their souls. The inclination to be sexually aroused by children should be an absolute impediment to both marriage and the priesthood. It is essential for both Sacraments that such a disorder be discovered BEFORE one could enter married or priestly life.

Good priests need to take caution that they never be in situations where they can be drawn in to some kind of relationship with a woman in the congregation that they admire. Good priests have to be careful about that and know their own weaknesses. Good priests don't have to worry about "falling in love" with the altar boys.  

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

If they live in other society than that, they will lose their souls.

I agree with your comment except for this. It is likely (hard to get good research) the majority of those who are sexually attracted to children do not offend, but work at controlling it (estimates are .5-1% of the population). If they know their own triggers and work hard at avoiding them and get medical help when needed, I expect many can manage like the rest of us and our less than worthy thoughts. Though it would be nice Imo for those who are having difficulty to be able to have a retreat to communities where they won’t be tempted to harm anyone. 

Apparently the popular label for this group is “virtuous pedophiles”.  And they have their own support group.

Wiki:

Quote

Virtuous Pedophiles is a forum which takes a firm stand against child sexual exploitation of any kind, including viewing child pornography. There are a number of pedophile organizations in the world, but most of them are either unclear about their attitude towards sexual contact with children or actively campaign to lower age-of-consent laws and to legalize sexual acts with children or child pornography. Virtuous Pedophiles instead accepts these laws and aims to help pedophiles "lead happy, productive and law-abiding lives".[4]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/us/pedophiles-online-sex-abuse.html

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm going to push back hard against this line of thinking. The belief that if you don't get married you're going to end up abusing children is whacked. Marriage doesn't prevent pedophilia and not having sex doesn't cause it.

Amen!

[3DOP]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree with your comment except for this. It is likely (hard to get good research) the majority of those who are sexually attracted to children do not offend, but work at controlling it (estimates are .5-1% of the population). If they know their own triggers and work hard at avoiding them and get medical help when needed, I expect many can manage like the rest of us and our less than worthy thoughts. Though it would be nice Imo for those who are having difficulty to be able to have a retreat to communities where they won’t be tempted to harm anyone. 

Apparently the popular label for this group is “virtuous pedophiles”.  And they have their own support group.

Wiki:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/us/pedophiles-online-sex-abuse.html

Calm I understand your not wanting to endorse that. I thought that comment might raise an eyebrow or two. I should have toned it down. I was mainly offering a suggestion about what a seminary might do to help one who was disqualified from the priesthood because of this unnatural urge, but also had sincere faith with experience of the religious life and the liturgical prayer that would comprise much of the day, being a helpful distraction.   

[Anakin7]

IF I was not LDS Orthodox Church would my 3rd pick behind Methodist, House Church, Church of Christ.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Anakin7

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Calm I understand your not wanting to endorse that. I thought that comment might raise an eyebrow or two. I should have toned it down. I was mainly offering a suggestion about what a seminary might do to help one who was disqualified from the priesthood because of this unnatural urge, but also had sincere faith with experience of the religious life and the liturgical prayer that would comprise much of the day, being a helpful distraction.   

We all have our own temptations which we cannot change, and which plague us.  Even Paul tells us he had something like that in his life.

I think what is wrong though is allowing ourselves to simply give up trying to conquer it, or even worse, mentally justifying it as "really not wrong"

 

Quote

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[poptart]

Think the only thing I dislike about the Orthodox Church, Freemasonry is off the table.  I'd never walk into anything with marks against me already, especially considering who I am deep down.  That aside, they seem quite solid.  As always, I'm pleasantly surprised with how people here know a bit about them. 

[halconero]

Yup. One of my best friends in Calgary in Ukrainian Orthodox and I go out once a year caroling with them on Orthodox Christmas. It's fun, sort of a mix of old-school home teaching and singing - you go to each house in the congregation, collect donations, sing for them, and then are hosted for food and drink. Someone in the group, usually a kid, carries a cross with icon to lead the parade house-to-house. Can't say I've seen any other major Orthodox groups here, mostly Ukrainian.

Fun fact though, the deacon to the Patriarch of Constantinople is a native-Calgarian and the son of the local priest. One of the youngest deacons to the Patriarch ever, and the first North American to hold the position. Graduated from high school here, went to Greece for a bachelor of theology, grad studies in Switzerland, and doctorate at Catholic University in Paris. He was the one in charge of carrying the tomo that granted independence to the Ukrainian Orthodox church from the Patriarchate of Moscow.