Church discipline proceedings on a member who no longer lives in the stake boundaries?

[bsjkki]

I find the use of her first name odd. It seems  disrespectful. This does shed more light on the facts involved. 

I have many questions which will find no answers.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I find the use of her first name odd. It seems  disrespectful.

I thought it seemed personal and warm. I suspect such things are a matter of culture.

[Fair Dinkum]

I’ve made my views on church courts clear. But to excommunicate this dear sister who desired to remain in the church in absentia is a new low for the church and frankly very disturbing.  What did they fear? I’m very disappointed and embarrassed. 

[Kenngo1969]

17 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I find the use of her first name odd. It seems  disrespectful. This does shed more light on the facts involved. 

I have many questions which will find no answers.

I think it's one of those "heads I win, tails you lose" type deals:

"Dear Sister Parker ..."  You're going to EXCOMMUNICATE me, yet you DARE call me SISTER?!!!

"Dear Mrs. Parker ..."  See, I knew it!  It's a done deal!  They've ALREADY EXCOMMUNICATED me!

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I’ve made my views on church courts clear. But to excommunicate this dear sister who desired to remain in the church in absentia is a new low for the church and frankly very disturbing.  What did they fear? I’m very disappointed and embarrassed. 

Disappointed and embarrassed for an organization in which you no longer believe?  Well, that's dang nice of you, Sir!

[Fair Dinkum]

5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Disappointed and embarrassed for an organization in which you no longer believe?  Well, that's dang nice of you, Sir!

How do you know what I do and don’t believe?

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

She has now made it clear that the shutting down of her professional page was an intervention by others but that she has decided to reopen it without removing any previous posts. Interesting. Perhaps this tells us something about what types of clients she wishes to attract?

The reason she states for the shutdown is interesting: 

"Out of concern for my health and the status of my well-being, my beautiful Symmetry Solutions team decided to temporarily unpublish my professional page, giving me time to reevaluate what I was posting when I was in better headspace."   And then she says, "After reviewing all the materials... I have republished my page.  No changes were made other than a few typo corrections and/or word changes to capture my point better" (ellipsis in the original, italics are mine).

So when she was in "better headspace" she republished essentially the same thing.

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

What did they fear?

Yep, cos that can be the only reason for any of this ... 

[helix]

19 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

But to excommunicate this dear sister who desired to remain in the church in absentia is a new low for the church and frankly very disturbing

"I wish to be a student of that university but I won't do any assignments"

"I wish to be join this health club but I won't pay any dues"

"I wish to be healthy but my diet will be junk food" 

"I wish to be in your religion but I won't follow its rules"

 

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think it's one of those "heads I win, tails you lose" type deals:

"Dear Sister Parker ..."  You're going to EXCOMMUNICATE me, yet you DARE call me SISTER?!!!

"Dear Mrs. Parker ..."  See, I knew it!  It's a done deal!  They've ALREADY EXCOMMUNICATED me!

I don’t think so. Even when set apart, I am called Sister. There is no situation in my church experience where I am called by my first name by Priesthood holders acting in their official capacity. Even good friends don’t do that. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

Even when set apart, I am called Sister. There is no situation in my church experience where I am called by my first name by Priesthood holders acting in their official capacity. Even good friends don’t do that. 

Again, I think this may be a cultural thing. I performed a setting apart this past Sunday. I used no title. Doing so would have introduced distance, in my opinion. Using my first name makes me feel close to the person. Placing a title in front (even one derived from family titles) makes me feel distant. I will be at a high council meeting this evening. No will be addressing me as 'Brother'. I would feel like I was in trouble if someone did.

[Fair Dinkum]

15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, cos that can be the only reason for any of this ... 

It was a power play.  The men needed to put the woman in her place and make sure she knew who was in charge

[Fair Dinkum]

12 minutes ago, helix said:

"I wish to be a student of that university but I won't do any assignments"

"I wish to be join this health club but I won't pay any dues"

"I wish to be healthy but my diet will be junk food" 

"I wish to be in your religion but I won't follow its rules"

 

So it was fair for them to expel her and hold the trial in absentia?  It’s disgusting 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[JustAnAustralian]

The first step for setting someone apart (according to the handbook) is:

Quote

Calls the person by his or her full name.

If they are just using brother/sister <last name> they aren't following the instructions.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

It was a power play.  The men needed to put the woman in her place and make sure she knew who was in charge

I'm reminded of an excommunication that occurred the first time I was serving with a stake presidency.

The person involved posted far and wide about what had happened -- social media channels, apostate websites, etc.

It was a power play, he wrote. We needed to shut him up. We couldn't handle the truth. We were afraid of him. We knew that he was able to bring to entire Church crashing down through his erudite criticisms. We should be embarrassed. Ashamed. Etc.

He was actually excommunicated for adultery, which he frankly admitted to in the membership council, but of course we couldn't say anything about that since we honoured the confidentiality that is a hallmark of such things.

Sorry, but your assessment is almost certainly just a projection of your own feelings.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Kenngo1969]

18 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I don’t think so. Even when set apart, I am called Sister. There is no situation in my church experience where I am called by my first name by Priesthood holders acting in their official capacity. Even good friends don’t do that. 

As I thought my post made clear (and to whatever extent that didn't happen, certainly, I'll take the blame) I don't know to what extent someone can extrapolate what would happen in a Church discipline situation from one's usual experience in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[helix]

15 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So it was fair for them to expel her and hold the trial in absentia?  It’s disgusting 

"Regarding your appeal to remain a student at this university, you stated the required paper form is an inappropriate burden and you wouldn't participate further.   Your appeal is thus denied."

"Your membership club bill is 6 months past due.  We can pay by cash or credit card.  You insisted using Bitcoin only.  We offered a third party to turn your Bitcoin into cash.  You declined.  Your membership is thus cancelled."

"As your doctor, I diagnosed you with stage 3 kidney disease.  I prescribed several diets.  You instead ate salted theater popcorn daily.  You are now at stage 4 kidney disease." 

"Your standing in this religion is struggling due to numerous offensive and theologically incompatible statements.  We offered a membership review meeting where we agreed upon no recording devices.  You brought a recording device.  We offered you a printer to print your notes instead.  You declined and yelled at us.  Your membership has been withdrawn."

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by helix

[bsjkki]

34 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The first step for setting someone apart (according to the handbook) is:

If they are just using brother/sister <last name> they aren't following the instructions.

But they would never just call me by my first name. They usually ask for my middle name. I’m trying to think of a time a priesthood leader called me by my first name when ‘on the job ‘ can’t think of a time.

It’s not a big deal but I found it too informal and not professional enough for the purpose. 

[Peacefully]

52 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

But they would never just call me by my first name. They usually ask for my middle name. I’m trying to think of a time a priesthood leader called me by my first name when ‘on the job ‘ can’t think of a time.

It’s not a big deal but I found it too informal and not professional enough for the purpose. 

The tone of the letter reminded me of my patriarchal blessing, so I pulled it up on LDS.org and reread it. The first paragraph started with my full name. After that, only my first name was used, and it was used several times throughout the blessing. I never gave it much thought but it is interesting. My last name has changed since I received the blessing so I’m kind of glad my first name was used, plus I like to think of the Lord feeling close enough to me to call me by my first name. Not sure I would feel the same if my membership were being withdrawn. 

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

It’s not a big deal but I found it too informal and not professional enough for the purpose. 

Are you talking about the actual letter, or the short FYI style email saying "here's the letter"?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

2) Despite her making it sound like they wanted a copy of all her notes, she actually had the option of printing them

I am thinking perhaps the offer for her to print her notes up required her to email the notes in an attachment to someone who had connections with the office printer there...which meant she would have to trust them to delete her notes after they printed them off for her.

I am grateful she posted the full letter instead of just her summary.  Too often we read into communication our own expectations. I have seen two people who know each other very well come away from the same communication with opposite interpretations of what the conclusion was because they read the one condition attached differently (yes, we will sell vs no, we won’t sell which caused some long lasting hurt feelings when one party thought the supposed agreement was ignored).

Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

Is there some way to block out the SP’s email address?

[Calm]

11 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

3) Despite her saying that she was being punished for actions were accepted practices in industry, those actions were never the issue.

Hopefully claims that this was the cause will cease now. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/latter-day-saint-church-notifies-sex-therapist-of-official-excommunication

 

No mention of the ‘tone’ of her public comments. From the list of what she needed to do to be considered for rebaptism, no longer using “disparaging and vulgar language” was important, imo, it was the first condition listed. (Page 2)

The “cease to use...” followed by “there is plenty of room for [civil and kind] diversity of thought” places how she was criticizing as important as what her criticisms imo.

But that may have been first because it is easier to adjust than deep concerns about authority and doctrinal issues. It would be an easy identifier for desire to work with her local leaders to come to an acceptable to both resolution. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I find the use of her first name odd. It seems  disrespectful. This does shed more light on the facts involved. 

I have many questions which will find no answers.

It was used on the email cover letter and then after use of her full name in the salutation (is that the correct term?) in the official letter, correct?

The bulk of the letter reads more ‘counseling’ than ‘employer’ or ‘landlord’ to me...a communication with someone who one is familiar with rather than an acquaintance, a more personal relationship. I am thinking about how I get called by leaders I know well and I remember both being called by Sister Robinson and by my first name in those cases, but it is Sister Robinson in less well acquainted relationships.

But first name use can also come across as having personal authority over someone, which can often have the tone of patronizing.  Unless she had previously been asked to be called Natasha, to me the use of Sister Parker is more appropriate...especially since one of the issues they had with her was a lack of respect towards leaders (if you want respect, show respect), but I don’t know the history of how they communicated in the past.  If he had been calling her Natasha, switching to Sister Parker feels too distancing to me, a subtle rejection of friendship.  Depending on age differences and other factors, he may have been using her first name after the original formal address to convey a tone of continuing friendship.

We don’t know if in the past she asked to be called Natasha or if there were other reasons they were on a first name basis.  I used to tell adults and kids to call me by my first name at church until I saw it made many uncomfortable.  Nowadays all my nieces and nephews call me by my first name where I always used “Uncle ____” or “Aunt _____”.  And I use Brother and Sister at church at times because I am bad at names and it is practically a miracle if I manage to remember the family name at least, lol.

I have been rather surprised by how almost all communication to me through email is first name these days. Got a letter from my dog’s vet and they use my first name, insurance and banking promotions I get through email and regular mail use my first name as well. Phone calls are always asking by first name as well. It does bug me familiarity is assumed by total strangers.

It definitely goes against how I was trained to write business and even casual letters to acquaintances in my English and typing classes. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm