The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Everything I have seen says the LDS Godhead Is not unified by substance but simply in purpose.

 They are a team working together to accomplish the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

They are unified by the Spirit, the same means by which the saints are unified with each other (e.g. “the unity of the Spirit”) and the same means by which the saints are able to unify with God and eventually become one with him in the same way the Father and the Son are one.

The Lectures on Faith tells us that the Father and the Son have the “same mind” because they are both filled to infinite and eternal fullness with the very same “Holy Spirit,” and in our religion the Holy Spirit is matter, just a finer and purer form of matter than the matter we can observe, measure, and work with in our present state of existence. In the scriptures, we told that the Spirit fills the immensity of space and all things in space, and isn’t the Godhead something? 

Two questions:

1) Why does it seem inappropriate or “off” to you that one of the reasons why the Father and the Son are one with each other is because they are both filled to eternal fulness with the very same uncreated Spirit of Truth and Holiness? 

2) If the saints are enabled to unify with each other through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the saints are enabled to unify with God by means of the same Holy Spirit, why does it seem strange to you that the members of the Godhead are unified with each other through the sharing of the very same Spirit?

I find it a bit disappointing that you don’t appear to be able to wrap your mind around this concept because if you were able to do so it would establish a great area of common ground between you and our Catholic friends. If both sides were able to come to an agreement that there is indeed a divine substance that unifies the Godhead, there would be one less barrier to overcome.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

They are unified by the Spirit, the same means by which the saints are unified with each other (e.g. “the unity of the Spirit”) and the same means by which the saints are able to unify with God and eventually become one with him in the same way the Father and the Son are one.

The Lectures on Faith tells us that the Father and the Son have the “same mind” because they are both filled to infinite and eternal fullness with the very same “Holy Spirit,” and in our religion the Holy Spirit is matter, just a finer and purer form of matter than the matter we can observe, measure, and work with in our present state of existence. In the scriptures, we told that the Spirit fills the immensity of space and all things in space, and isn’t the Godhead something? 

Two questions:

1) Why does it seem inappropriate or “off” to you that one of the reasons why the Father and the Son are one with each other is because they are both filled to eternal fulness with the very same uncreated Spirit of Truth and Holiness? 

2) If the saints are enabled to unify with each other through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the saints are enabled to unify with God by means of the same Holy Spirit, why does it seem strange to you that the members of the Godhead are unified with each other through the sharing of the very same Spirit?

I find it a bit disappointing that you don’t appear to be able to wrap your mind around this concept because if you were able to do so it would establish a great area of common ground between you and our Catholic friends. If both sides were able to come to an agreement that there is indeed a divine substance that unifies the Godhead, there would be one less barrier to overcome.

1.  Because we generally think of a Spirit as an individual person, so the idea that our Father and our Lord are united because the Spirit of Truth is uniting them, as if they need that person to unite them, as if they can't be united without him, doesn't seem right.

2. Isn't this the same question as your question #1?  

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, teddyaware said:

More on this post of yours later. But I just want to let you know that I used the word ‘seared’ advisably. You see, it really annoys me when I hear uninformed Latter-Day Saints get up in Church and say how silly they think it is for anyone to believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one and the same person, usually said with the wisp a playful smirk on the face. 

McConkie taught that somehow the Father, Son and Holy Ghost divinely indwell one another and thus are one in thought, deed, action, purpose and I would say substance to some extent as you pointed out above.

[Ahab]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Everything I have seen says the LDS Godhead Is not unified by substance but simply in purpose.

IF our Father and our Lord and the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth are all the same kind of being, though, and each kind of being is determined by the substance of that kind of being, wouldn't that mean the kind of substance they are is the same?

 

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 They are a team working together to accomplish the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

A team of like minded and like substance (substantially the same) individuals working together to accomplish that purpose.  Just like how all people are substantially what makes people "people" who could, if they wanted to, work toward the same purpose.

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

McConkie taught that somehow the Father, Son and Holy Ghost divinely indwell one another and thus are one in thought, deed, action, purpose and I would say substance to some extent as you pointed out above.

Yeah, well, we know McConkie doesn't have a perfect track record.  Early on after I became a member of the Church it was explained to me that the Holy Spirit's influence on us is a lot like experiencing sunshine with the Holy Spirit as a sun.

He is in only one place at a time and each of us is in only one place at a time but we can still connect and influence each other regardless of where we are.

[teddyaware]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

1.  Because we generally think of a Spirit as an individual person, so the idea that our Father and our Lord are united because the Spirit of Truth is uniting them, as if they need that person to unite them, as if they can't be united without him, doesn't seem right.

2. Isn't this the same question as your question #1?  

Do you understand and believe the oft reiterated basic gospel principle that the simultaneous indwelling of the Spirit of God in the members (plural) of the Church is necessary in order for them to be spiritually unified?

Do you also understand and believe the oft reiterated basic gospel principle that the saints (plural) must be filled with the Spirit of God before they can enjoy redemption and be unified with God?

[teddyaware]

28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

McConkie taught that somehow the Father, Son and Holy Ghost divinely indwell one another and thus are one in thought, deed, action, purpose and I would say substance to some extent as you pointed out above.

That is correct. And Apostle McConkie isn’t the only prominent leader of the Church who has taught this critically important point of gospel doctrine. The fact that there are otherwise knowledgeable participants on this board who don’t seem to understand and believe this fundamental theological principle tells me they have little understanding of much of what the Apostle Paul teaches us. The apparent fact that there are participants here who don’t understand that the Spirit of God can be present within multiple saints simultaneously is as shocking to me as it is mind boggling. I don’t get it. Perhaps if they spent more time studying the scriptures than knocking around their own personal pet ideas on this board they’d “get it.”

Edited March 23, 2021 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Do you understand and believe the oft reiterated basic gospel principle that the simultaneous indwelling of the Spirit of God in the members (plural) of the Church is necessary in order for them to be spiritually unified?

Yes.  Do you understand and believe that the only way we can be unified with another person (spirit) is to voluntarily agree with that other person (spirit) and that there isn't anything another person (spirit) can do to force us to agree with him?

Quote

Do you also understand and believe the oft reiterated basic gospel principle that the saints (plural) must be filled with the Spirit of God before they can enjoy redemption and be unified with God?

Yes.  Do you understand that we already have the spirit of God within us by virtue of being a child of God and that what we should seek is to be united with our Father's will, which is also the will of our Lord and the Holy Ghost?

Edited March 23, 2021 by Ahab

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yeah, well, we know McConkie doesn't have a perfect track record.  Early on after I became a member of the Church it was explained to me that the Holy Spirit's influence on us is a lot like experiencing sunshine with the Holy Spirit as a sun.

He is in only one place at a time and each of us is in only one place at a time but we can still connect and influence each other regardless of where we are.

Based on my studies and the scriptures he relied on, as well as the Lectures on Faith, which he really liked, I think he was accurate.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes.  Do you understand and believe that the only way we can be unified with another person (spirit) is to voluntarily agree with that other person (spirit) and that there isn't anything another person (spirit) can do to force us to agree with him?

Yes.  Do you understand that we already have the spirit of God within us by virtue of being a child of God and that what we should seek is to be united with our Father's will, which is also the will of our Lord and the Holy Ghost?

Do you believe the life, light and spiritual power of God that emanate from the the Holy Ghost can dwell within more than one person at the same time?

What do you think the Savior meant when he said “I dwell in the Father and the Father dwells in me?

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Duplicate.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

Do you believe the life, light and spiritual power of God that emanate from the the Holy Ghost can dwell within more than one person at the same time?

Yes, and as I said in an earlier post, it is similar to experiencing sunshine with the sun in only one place while the sun's influence can be felt and experienced by many others who are near it.

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

What do you think the Savior meant when he said “I dwell in the Father and the Father dwells in me?

That our Father's influence and character dwelled in him as well as our Father, that to see what one is like is to see what the other is like, that they are substantially the same kind of being and person.  That to know one is to know the other.

[teddyaware]

34 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes, and as I said in an earlier post, it is similar to experiencing sunshine with the sun in only one place while the sun's influence can be felt and experienced by many others who are near it.

That our Father's influence and character dwelled in him as well as our Father, that to see what one is like is to see what the other is like, that they are substantially the same kind of being and person.  That to know one is to know the other.

And this remarkable state of intimate divine coexistence isn’t made possible by the fact that the Father and the Son are both filled to an eternal fullness with the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence?

Do you understand that the Greek title The Christ (The Anointed One) has reference to the fact that the Savior was anointed (filled) with the Spirit of the Holy Ghost to an infinite and eternal fulness?

[longview]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The Lectures on Faith tells us that the Father and the Son have the “same mind” because they are both filled to infinite and eternal fullness with the very same “Holy Spirit,” and in our religion the Holy Spirit is matter, just a finer and purer form of matter than the matter we can observe, measure, and work with in our present state of existence. In the scriptures, we told that the Spirit fills the immensity of space and all things in space, and isn’t the Godhead something? 

Are you thinking along those lines? - - -

If the Holy Spirit is a "finer and purer form of matter" and fills the immensity of space, then would that make it a form of ether?  Just not detectable with scientific instruments because they are made with coarse matter.

The Holy Spirit is NOT synonymous with the Holy Ghost who is a distinct personal member of the Godhead.  The Holy Spirit enables instant communication between exalted Beings.  Devils do not have access to it since they do not know the mind of God and do not see all of time and are thus unable to prophesy?

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

And this remarkable state of intimate divine coexistence isn’t made possible by the fact that the Father and the Son are both filled to an eternal fullness with the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence?

You're confusing cause and effect.  First they were each the same kind of being as an uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and then they each gained an eternal fulness of that intelligence by agreeing with others who had the eternal fulness. 

Consider how our Father had an eternal fulness of that divine intelligence before our Lord did, even before our Lord was born as his first child in that spirit, and then later our Lord grew in intelligence until he gained our Father's level of intelligence in full.

And how did our Lord do it?  By learning from our Father, whether personally or by what our Father told him through ministering servants, doing what our Father does after learning what to do and how to do it.

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Do you understand that the Greek title The Christ (The Anointed One) has reference to the fact that the Savior was anointed (filled) with the Spirit of the Holy Ghost to an infinite and eternal fulness?

Actually the reason our Lord is referred to as the Christ/Messiah or the Annointed one is because he is the one our Father appointed to fulfill that role.  He is our Savior because our Father chose him to be our Savior.  And he did what our Father told him to do.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

They are unified by the Spirit, the same means by which the saints are unified with each other (e.g. “the unity of the Spirit”) and the same means by which the saints are able to unify with God and eventually become one with him in the same way the Father and the Son are one.

The Lectures on Faith tells us that the Father and the Son have the “same mind” because they are both filled to infinite and eternal fullness with the very same “Holy Spirit,” and in our religion the Holy Spirit is matter, just a finer and purer form of matter than the matter we can observe, measure, and work with in our present state of existence. In the scriptures, we told that the Spirit fills the immensity of space and all things in space, and isn’t the Godhead something? 

Two questions:

1) Why does it seem inappropriate or “off” to you that one of the reasons why the Father and the Son are one with each other is because they are both filled to eternal fulness with the very same uncreated Spirit of Truth and Holiness? 

2) If the saints are enabled to unify with each other through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the saints are enabled to unify with God by means of the same Holy Spirit, why does it seem strange to you that the members of the Godhead are unified with each other through the sharing of the very same Spirit?

I find it a bit disappointing that you don’t appear to be able to wrap your mind around this concept because if you were able to do so it would establish a great area of common ground between you and our Catholic friends. If both sides were able to come to an agreement that there is indeed a divine substance that unifies the Godhead, there would be one less barrier to overcome.

Well sorry.

My entire life is as guided by the spirit as much I can learn how to do so. I feel as if I am constantly improving on that.

But that is WORDLESS communication, with a constant link. The spirit an I are buddies, we do most things in thoughtful communication.

I never talk to him about "substance" or "material". Those are the human abstractions of metaphysics, invented by folks who want to define the undefinable.

I left Catholicism because they talked funny.

I didn't understand the words and they certainly didn't go with ordinary language philosophy.

But words are just words.

I could probably be Catholic again tomorrow if they just kept talking about an ineffable spirit THAT I GET.

LDS folks don't have "theology" deliberately!  No philosophical statements made 800 years ago, written in latin and mistranslated into 20th century philosophy.

So on one hand, since NO linguistic statement can capture God, theirs is as good or bad as ours. I can live with it.

 On the other hand I want to convert secular people  Of the 21st century who have felt something and didn't know what it was.

 I want to eliminate trouble we have communicating with secular people.

 I guess I just want Catholics to speak in 21st century English.

 All my disagreement is about terminology not the spirit.

 I would not mind one bit to go to Tridentine mass and simply not talk about the Theology.

Hmmm. 

How about the mass once a week, the temple once a week, and Christian service the rest of the week, and studying the Standard works?

But seriously I respect your advice enough to change.

I think Robert Barron's language works both for Catholics and secular folks, maybe that's the way to go...?

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

And this remarkable state of intimate divine coexistence isn’t made possible by the fact that the Father and the Son are both filled to an eternal fullness with the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence?

I love this, but this is LDS talk. I don't think Catholics would buy this statement 

That's why the church teaches unification through purpose- the purpose of saving mankind.

Simple, true, not Catholic OR LDS mumbo jumbo

 

 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I love this, but this is LDS talk. I don't think Catholics would buy this statement 

LDS talk because it was stated by someone who is LDS?  But teddy doesn't speak for all LDS.  Sounds like teddy talk to me.  Why do you think Catholics would not buy it?

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

That's why the church teaches unification through purpose- the purpose of saving mankind.

Simple, true, not Catholic OR LDS mumbo jumbo

You have your own kind of mumbo jumbo, ya know.  Why don't you think your own mumbo jumbo is LDS mumbo jumbo?

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

IF our Father and our Lord and the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth are all the same kind of being, though, and each kind of being is determined by the substance of that kind of being, wouldn't that mean the kind of substance they are is the same?

 

A team of like minded and like substance (substantially the same) individuals working together to accomplish that purpose.  Just like how all people are substantially what makes people "people" who could, if they wanted to, work toward the same purpose.

Fine but why use confusing language that confuses secular folks who are tired of "religious mumbo jumbo"?

Keep it simple

"They are United by purpose and are of one mind LIKE the ideal parents or even the ideal baseball team is. "

THAT speaks to secular folks

 

 

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

LDS talk because it was stated by someone who is LDS?  But teddy doesn't speak for all LDS.  Sounds like teddy talk to me.  Why do you think Catholics would not buy it?

"Spirit of divine intelligence"

Catholics don't believe that Intelligence fills the universe, disembodied God does.

That's why God can't be embodied, He could not fill the universe 

But  I am not going to talk about talk with you anymore for now

Edited March 23, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Fine but why use confusing language that confuses secular folks who are tired of "religious mumbo jumbo"?

Keep it simple

"They are United by purpose and are of one mind LIKE the ideal parents or even the ideal baseball team is. "

THAT speaks to secular folks

 

 

Even better: They are 3 people who all want us to live long and prosper.

Always a good idea to throw in some Star Trek or Star Wars or science fiction story when talking about the universe with regular people.

[MiserereNobis]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I left Catholicism because they talked funny.

But Latin is awesome!

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I could probably be Catholic again tomorrow if they just kept talking about an ineffable spirit THAT I GET.

Let's do this and get you back home to Rome!

One of the things I like about Catholicism is the idea of vocations that plays out into the different orders. If someone is super into theology, they've got the Jesuits to hang out with. Not for you, though (or for me, really).

If someone is about ineffable experience of spirit, well, let's talk to the contemplative orders. Benedictine is the largest, but there are others (I like the Trappists, but they are none near me). In all my experiences of retreats at Benedictine monasteries, there has been hardly any discussion of theology as such. It's been about prayer and liturgy and then a whole lot of silence to actually experience God.

Let's get you to the Benedictines!

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I would not mind one bit to go to Tridentine mass and simply not talk about the Theology.

I know LA is huge, but in the small chance that you are nearby, you could check out this parish:

http://www.fssp.la

Sunday High Mass is at 9 and 11 (might have changed due to covid). The parish is fully dedicated to all things Tridentine.

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How about the mass once a week, the temple once a week, and Christian service the rest of the week, and studying the Standard works?

We'd love for you to come to Mass once a week!

49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think Robert Barron's language works both for Catholics and secular folks, maybe that's the way to go...?

Like I said above, there are so many different approaches to Catholicism. Keep watching Robert Barron's videos (and thanks for introducing them to me).

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

But Latin is awesome!

Let's do this and get you back home to Rome!

One of the things I like about Catholicism is the idea of vocations that plays out into the different orders. If someone is super into theology, they've got the Jesuits to hang out with. Not for you, though (or for me, really).

If someone is about ineffable experience of spirit, well, let's talk to the contemplative orders. Benedictine is the largest, but there are others (I like the Trappists, but they are none near me). In all my experiences of retreats at Benedictine monasteries, there has been hardly any discussion of theology as such. It's been about prayer and liturgy and then a whole lot of silence to actually experience God.

Let's get you to the Benedictines!

I know LA is huge, but in the small chance that you are nearby, you could check out this parish:

http://www.fssp.la

Sunday High Mass is at 9 and 11 (might have changed due to covid). The parish is fully dedicated to all things Tridentine.

We'd love for you to come to Mass once a week!

Like I said above, there are so many different approaches to Catholicism. Keep watching Robert Barron's videos (and thanks for introducing them to me).

 

Thanks!

36 miles, and I would love to attend and want to take on a two hour drive, one hour each way, I might do it, but I am not ever leaving the LDS church unless it disappears.   

 Very ironic that you bring up praying about vocations.

 When I was in a  In 8th grade we had a 2 day weekend trip to Saint Anthony  seminary in Santa Barbara.

1962, Franciscan.

 The goal was to recruit us into  going there for high school and college and of course later becoming a priest, in a boarding school type of environment. I was about ready to do it

 A couple of hours before it was time to leave I went back in to that church by myself. No human to influence me.

SHOULD I become a priest or get married?

It was the strongest prayer I had experienced as well as the first time I think I did not pray a memorized "Our Father" or "Hail Mary " etc. I poured my heart out to the Lord.

And then I felt like I had been immersed into a warm bath of pure love. The tears came. I was enveloped in God's love. I felt God was speaking to me.  He was saying "BOTH".

IT didn't make sense- priesthood meant celibacy!

But He was saying "Both!"  God wanted me to be a priest AND be married!

I went home very confused.

Catholic High School. Learned Doctrine.  It was a tough school, all boys, and most were there so "the priests " would straighten them out.

I didn't belong there 

Switched to a good public HS.

Girls!!

Non-Catholic ideas! Dating!

Then UCLA. 1967-68

Yippies, hippies, SDS, Mao, Angela Davis was my professor, philosophy major philosophy minor, magna cum laude, atheism.

Grad school, philosophy.

Is there ANY logical basis for religion? Of course not!!

Wait a minute.

Kierkegaard. Heidegger. James. Dewey. Whitehead. Wittgenstein and scores of others say yes.

Somebody gives me a Book of Mormon.

SHOCK

MORONI 10:4-5!

All those philosophers affirm the role of private, even religious experience!!  I had to ponder this thing. Took a drive.

Is it even philosophically POSSIBLE to have God, if he exists, answer an individual ??

Went over Marx mentally. Of course not. But then Kierkegaard. Fideism. What about James? Fideism. And religious experience. Dewey same thing. Wittgenstein. Whitehead and process philosophy. It might be logically possible!

Drove for hours. Crap! Time to go home! Where am I anyway? SANTA BARBARA? Got off the freeway. How to go south, now. Missed the turn. If I just go here a ways..

Got lost. Curvy roads, not like LA. 

I made a turn, and Before me was St. Anthony's Seminary! 🤯😱🥴

How could that BE? The place where I prayed as a kid about my vocation??

It was locked. Next door was the SB mission, the old one, founded by Father Serra himself!.

I went inside.

I prayed mightily.

He answered mightily.

I KNOW God answers prayers. I know now that my first prayer about my vocation was correct- I have the Priesthood, I am married, BOTH, I have "pastored" a Ward as bishop, and in other callings.  I have had children and grandchildren and my life is full of love for God and my family, and others.

And it all started with praying about my vocation and that showed me that you do not need others to intercede for you, you don't need memorized prayers, God knows your personal needs and he CAN and WILL  answer you personally. You don't need complicated theology to understand all we need to know to live with Our Father again.

Of course that does NOT mean that God is not infinitely more than we can fully comprehend, either.

But his path is easy, and his burden is light.

I just don't think the Benedictines would be a great match for me right now. 

But I love you Catholics.

My genealogical family has been 100% Catholic for hundreds of years.

I love your faith and devotion, and I find your liturgy hugely inspiring. I love latin because it escapes presentism and takes you straight back to the origins of the church. I love your belief in the necessity for correct authority for the priesthood. I love the rosary and the mystical union it can engender. I love your devotion to Mary and the understanding of the Divine Feminine and think we could use a lot more of that in our church.

But I cannot accept the words you use to make theological descriptions

Words on one hand are important, in one sense and totally unimportant on the other

In matters of the heart, they are nothing.

In describing theology, they are everything.

So all that separates us is words

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Like I said above, there are so many different approaches to Catholicism. Keep watching Robert Barron's videos (and thanks for introducing them to me).

He's got the words that work.

I can see some possible unification in them.

[3DOP]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks!

36 miles, and I would love to attend and want to take on a two hour drive, one hour each way, I might do it, but I am not ever leaving the LDS church unless it disappears.   

 Very ironic that you bring up praying about vocations.

 When I was in a  In 8th grade we had a 2 day weekend trip to Saint Anthony  seminary in Santa Barbara.

1962, Franciscan.

 The goal was to recruit us into  going there for high school and college and of course later becoming a priest, in a boarding school type of environment. I was about ready to do it

 A couple of hours before it was time to leave I went back in to that church by myself. No human to influence me.

SHOULD I become a priest or get married?

It was the strongest prayer I had experienced as well as the first time I think I did not pray a memorized "Our Father" or "Hail Mary " etc. I poured my heart out to the Lord.

And then I felt like I had been immersed into a warm bath of pure love. The tears came. I was enveloped in God's love. I felt God was speaking to me.  He was saying "BOTH".

IT didn't make sense- priesthood meant celibacy!

But He was saying "Both!"  God wanted me to be a priest AND be married!

I went home very confused.

Catholic High School. Learned Doctrine.  It was a tough school, all boys, and most were there so "the priests " would straighten them out.

I didn't belong there 

Switched to a good public HS.

Girls!!

Non-Catholic ideas! Dating!

Then UCLA. 1967-68

Yippies, hippies, SDS, Mao, Angela Davis was my professor, philosophy major philosophy minor, magna cum laude, atheism.

Grad school, philosophy.

Is there ANY logical basis for religion? Of course not!!

Wait a minute.

Kierkegaard. Heidegger. James. Dewey. Whitehead. Wittgenstein and scores of others say yes.

Somebody gives me a Book of Mormon.

SHOCK

MORONI 10:4-5!

All those philosophers affirm the role of private, even religious experience!!  I had to ponder this thing. Took a drive.

Is it even philosophically POSSIBLE to have God, if he exists, answer an individual ??

Went over Marx mentally. Of course not. But then Kierkegaard. Fideism. What about James? Fideism. And religious experience. Dewey same thing. Wittgenstein. Whitehead and process philosophy. It might be logically possible!

Drove for hours. Crap! Time to go home! Where am I anyway? SANTA BARBARA? Got off the freeway. How to go south, now. Missed the turn. If I just go here a ways..

Got lost. Curvy roads, not like LA. 

I made a turn, and Before me was St. Anthony's Seminary! 🤯😱🥴

How could that BE? The place where I prayed as a kid about my vocation??

It was locked. Next door was the SB mission, the old one, founded by Father Serra himself!.

I went inside.

I prayed mightily.

He answered mightily.

I KNOW God answers prayers. I know now that my first prayer about my vocation was correct- I have the Priesthood, I am married, BOTH, I have "pastored" a Ward as bishop, and in other callings.  I have had children and grandchildren and my life is full of love for God and my family, and others.

And it all started with praying about my vocation and that showed me that you do not need others to intercede for you, you don't need memorized prayers, God knows your personal needs and he CAN and WILL  answer you personally. You don't need complicated theology to understand all we need to know to live with Our Father again.

Of course that does NOT mean that God is not infinitely more than we can fully comprehend, either.

But his path is easy, and his burden is light.

I just don't think the Benedictines would be a great match for me right now. 

But I love you Catholics.

My genealogical family has been 100% Catholic for hundreds of years.

I love your faith and devotion, and I find your liturgy hugely inspiring. I love latin because it escapes presentism and takes you straight back to the origins of the church. I love your belief in the necessity for correct authority for the priesthood. I love the rosary and the mystical union it can engender. I love your devotion to Mary and the understanding of the Divine Feminine and think we could use a lot more of that in our church.

But I cannot accept the words you use to make theological descriptions

Words on one hand are important, in one sense and totally unimportant on the other

In matters of the heart, they are nothing.

In describing theology, they are everything.

So all that separates us is words

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Mark,

Thank you. Of course, with my Catholic friends here, I would rather you be Catholic like us. But given the times and places God put you, you have probably been a better Catholic as an LDS to this point, than if you had experienced Catholic seminary and been ordained in the 70's. 

Mystery upon mystery. We know so little of what there is to know...

Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison.

I do not question your experience. I do not say it was the devil. I am agnostic. (I don't know how to explain it. Be assured of my prayers. Can we be in heaven together? I do not know. Will I be in heaven? Same answer. I hope. I do know that this is my prayer and wish:

All the best to you and yours, now and forever.

Rory

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by 3DOP