AtlanticMike Posted February 18, 2021 Author Posted February 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: If you are a member of the Church, and as far as I know you are, then you are a representative of the Church. Every member is. And no member has the authority to speak for every other member of the Church, so no one member's statements should be taken or understood as a statement from every other member. So you will see some members who don't agree with my statements and some other members who do and the same can be said of any other member's statements. We do not all agree with each other on everything and yet on some things we do. So, anyway, if you don't want to be on his show, then I think I can understand why you would not. But you could, if you wanted to, and as a member you would be a representative of the Church. No. The church has certain people who speak as representatives for the church I think. I don't know where that starts and ends.
Ahab Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, AtlanticMike said: No. The church has certain people who speak as representatives for the church I think. I don't know where that starts and ends. Church leaders can send others on missions, if those they call accept those callings from their leaders, but all members are missionaries and representatives of the Church whether or not they are called by their leaders to go on missions. And missions can end. That is how all of that starts and ends. Missions can be for a specified time rather than lasting forever, but representative status will remain for any member as long as they remain a member of the Church. You get to choose whether or not to believe me, of course.
Stargazer Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 On 2/17/2021 at 2:33 PM, AtlanticMike said: people being excommunicated Just noting that the term "excommunication" is no longer used. It's called "Withdrawal of membership" now.
smac97 Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Quote I see no evidence that John Delin has any interest in helping the Church. To the contrary, I have seen ample evidence that he wants to "change" the Church by undermining it. By trying to tear it down. By disparaging its cumulative honor, efforts and reputation. Ok here's another idea for you. The guy you mentioned above basically has a platform to do whatever and say whatever he wants. Obviously he is free to do that, and thank goodness we live in a country he can do that. Agreed. Quote But, that doesn't mean the church cant ruffle his feathers a little bit. What if the church came out and called his bluff. I've seen on one of his videos that he has actually offered time for a church representative to come onto his show. Well, they should do it. Why? His bread and butter is trying to persuade people to leave the Church. Going on his show would drive more traffic to his site, would further his objective of injuring the Church. Why should the Church help him in his efforts? Quote Maybe it could be a once a month podcast dedicated with a church representative, on his podcast. A real debate, no teleprompters, a civil conversation. Theres got to be somebody out there in utah who could handle that. Daniel Peterson appeared on his podcast in 2011, as did Brant Gardner, and Terryl Givens. Edward Kimball appeared in 2010. Terryl and Fiona Givens appeared in 2012. Brian Hales appeared in 2013, as did Ralph Hancock. Kevin Barney appeared in 2015. Jaxon Washburn appeared in 2017, as did Scott Turley and Carey Foushee, Loyd Ericson and Bert Fuller, Dan Wotherspoon, Brian D. Birch, and Patrick Mason. Jim Bennett appeared in January 2021. I don't think Dehlin is interested in "debate." He's not a particularly erudite fellow (at least as far as the history and doctrines of the Church go). Thanks, -Smac Edited February 18, 2021 by smac97 2
AtlanticMike Posted February 18, 2021 Author Posted February 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, Ahab said: Church leaders can send others on missions, if those they call accept those callings from their leaders, but all members are missionaries and representatives of the Church whether or not they are called by their leaders to go on missions. And missions can end. That is how all of that starts and ends. Missions can be for a specified time rather than lasting forever, but representative status will remain for any member as long as they remain a member of the Church. You get to choose whether or not to believe me, of course. I agree with you that we are personally representatives of the gospel, kinda, through our actions, that's why we should keep the commandments. But, in a legal sense or even being able to speak for the church and its teachings I respectfully disagree on this one. Take a look at fair mormons front page, they dont even speak for the church. I don't know if it's just the 15, the first Quorum of the seventy, I have no idea where that starts and ends
Stargazer Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 21 hours ago, smac97 said: Should the Church attempt to confer with its antagonists, particularly the prominent self-appointed types? John Dehlin? Sam Young? Kate Kelly? Denver Snuffer? Richard Packham? Attempting to confer with these people would make them very pleased, and they would welcome it, so they could claim to be "rattling" the Church. That's why they should be ignored by the Church. 1
Stargazer Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Saint Thomas More: "Nevertheless, it is not for the Supremacy that you have sought my blood, but because I would not bend to the marriage!!" One of my favorite quotes from "A Man for All Seasons". I love that film! 1
Ahab Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: I agree with you that we are personally representatives of the gospel, kinda, through our actions, that's why we should keep the commandments. But, in a legal sense or even being able to speak for the church and its teachings I respectfully disagree on this one. Take a look at fair mormons front page, they dont even speak for the church. I don't know if it's just the 15, the first Quorum of the seventy, I have no idea where that starts and ends As I said before, I don't think there is anyone who is authorized to speak for all members of the Church. Not even our President or the First Presidency or The Quorum of Twelve Apostles are authorized to speak for all members of the Church. I never authorized them to speak or me. Did you authorize them to speak for you? I agree with most of what they say, I think, but still I have not ever given them any authority to speak for me. God has, to some extent, but not me.
MiserereNobis Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Stargazer said: One of my favorite quotes from "A Man for All Seasons". I love that film! I still don't understand how the Anglican church venerates him as a martyr. Talk about twisting things..? I mean, the guy was killed by the "founder" of the Anglican communion for being against the very reason Henry broke from Rome.
Ahab Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: I still don't understand how the Anglican church venerates him as a martyr. Talk about twisting things..? I mean, the guy was killed by the "founder" of the Anglican communion for being against the very reason Henry broke from Rome. I think of it as what the Catholic church did by declaring some people to be saints long after they killed them. Joan of Arc, for example. A way of saying "Ooops, she/he was a good person, after all. Mea Culpa".
AtlanticMike Posted February 18, 2021 Author Posted February 18, 2021 16 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Attempting to confer with these people would make them very pleased, and they would welcome it, so they could claim to be "rattling" the Church. That's why they should be ignored by the Church. Even if someone is trying to take a bite out of you, there's always hope for a better tomorrow 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 1
Stargazer Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 50 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I still don't understand how the Anglican church venerates him as a martyr. Talk about twisting things..? I mean, the guy was killed by the "founder" of the Anglican communion for being against the very reason Henry broke from Rome. Yeah, it's very perplexing. And no surprise that some Church of England priests convert to Catholicism. There's an entire Wikipedia category about it: Anglican priest converts to Roman Catholicism On the other hand, CofE isn't really Protestant, IMHO It's Catholic, just not Roman Catholic. At least, that's my assessment. 1
smac97 Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Attempting to confer with these people would make them very pleased, and they would welcome it, so they could claim to be "rattling" the Church. That's why they should be ignored by the Church. I agree. It would also make them think they have acquired unearned and unmerited legitimacy as representatives of others (kind of like how race hustlers like Al Sharpton operate). I am fine with individual members of the Church providing their perspectives on Dehlin's broadcast. Free Speech and all that. But I'm not persuaded that the Church itself interacting with these people is a good idea. Thanks, -Smac 1
AtlanticMike Posted February 19, 2021 Author Posted February 19, 2021 13 hours ago, smac97 said: I agree. It would also make them think they have acquired unearned and unmerited legitimacy as representatives of others (kind of like how race hustlers like Al Sharpton operate). I am fine with individual members of the Church providing their perspectives on Dehlin's broadcast. Free Speech and all that. But I'm not persuaded that the Church itself interacting with these people is a good idea. Thanks, -Smac So since you kept asking me who was representing the exmormon community and I didnt have an answer, I did some research last and I dont think any one person represents exmormon. I dont like calling people out by name, but the guy with mormon stories, mormon discussions and radio free mormon are probably the most influential among exmormons. Also, there's dozens of podcast dedicated to speaking against church beliefs. Exmormon reddit has almost 200,000 members. You tube has 100s of channels. Here's my thoughts, at some point in the future the missionaries aren't going to be able to spread the gospel without every single person they are talking to opening their phone and asking them questions they cant answer without being uncomfortable. And something that really worries me is at some point in the near future somebody's going to flip the bill for a high quality miniseries on the "dark side of mormonism" just like Lea Remini did on scientology. It's only a matter of time. Your a very intelligent guy, I know you have to see how this could be a nightmare for the brethren. One of the most devastating parts of the scientology documentary Lea Remini did, to me, is the fact that the church of scientology never actually sent a human to talk to anyone from the show, it was always written statements backing up the churches position or trying to discredit Lea Remini. To me, it just proved they couldn't back up their claims. So let's guesstimate that the exmormon community is 300,000 and its only going to get bigger in the future. Is there a number, maybe 500,000 or 1,000,000, when the Brethren might actually have to address the growing number of members leaving the church by reaching out to certain influential exmormons and forming a relationship? I say yes there is. And if so, personally, I think getting in front of the problem is better than letting a community define what your beliefs are. The problem, just like the one I have with my brother in law who hasn't been a member of the church for years, is a lot of exmormons are still doing what they were taught by the church, they're still trying to be missionaries, but now they've turned their attention to believing mormons. To me, I would love to see the brethren out among the people, no suit just regular clothes. No teleprompter. No PR department. Just a Prophet, seer and revelator being a Prophet, seer and Revelator. I know they could do it, I have faith in them.
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 19, 2021 Posted February 19, 2021 21 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: Here's my thoughts, at some point in the future the missionaries aren't going to be able to spread the gospel without every single person they are talking to opening their phone and asking them questions they cant answer without being uncomfortable. You have a very dim view of your 'fellow' Saints. 3
AtlanticMike Posted February 19, 2021 Author Posted February 19, 2021 11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You have a very dim view of your 'fellow' Saints. No. Not at all. I'm practical, I'm not scared to see what the future holds. And as far as you saying I have a dim view of my fellow saints, the quote you provided, isn't anything new, prophets and apostles have been saying that missionaries returning home is one of the signs of the second coming. Here's reality, band width and the spread of the internet will be the biggest problem for all churches in the future, if you want to put your head in the sand and sing primary songs to make yourself feel better, then go ahead. But I'm proactive, I dont wait till the last second and then take care of a problem.
Stargazer Posted February 19, 2021 Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: The problem, just like the one I have with my brother in law who hasn't been a member of the church for years, is a lot of exmormons are still doing what they were taught by the church, they're still trying to be missionaries, but now they've turned their attention to believing mormons. Just because there are a few dedicated anti-mormons among the ex-mormons does not mean that the missionaries are going to be confronted everywhere they go with questions they can't answer. And you are making big assumptions about how large the exodus out of the church is or is going to be, and how vocal all the exiters are going to be. I hope you are aware that just because someone "joins" a subreddit does not mean that they are a legitimate member of the subject group? I'm on Reddit, by the way, though I hardly ever post. I'm u/Cyberherbalist. Although before today, I hadn't troubled myself to seek out any of these ex-Mormon subreddits (just had a look, and am convinced I don't want to tread into that cesspool), I could easily join such a subreddit to respond to it in defense of the Church, and then there'd be someone, somewhere, claiming that there's one more member of an ex-mormon subreddit. Are all the 189k members of r/exmormon former LDS? Or is there a mixture of former members, inactive members, active members still in good standing who are doubting, active members looking for a good joke (lots of memes there, btw), defenders of the Church trying to be a moderating influence, and never-members who live in SLC and can't let a moment roll by without dissing the Church? I'd guess there's plenty more types there than this. How many of these are active posters on the subreddit? Unless you can conduct a scientific poll of subreddit members, you can't reasonably conclude anything about them. I remember a story told by a member of the Church who left the Church, joined Ex-Mormons for Jesus, and on one occasion went to help out at his local group's county fair booth. On his first shift there he asked his shift co-worker when he left the Church, only to have him say he was never a Mormon. He was surprised at this, and the other fellow explained how they liked to have at least one actual ex-Mormon on duty at the booth, but couldn't always achieve that. It turned out that the majority of the members of his chapter hadn't ever so much as darkened the door of an LDS chapel. They were largely Evangelicals who were fighting the good fight against the LDS church. Things don't always turn out the way they appear. r/atheism has 2.6 million members, by the way. A lot more than r/exmormon. For what that's worth... 2
AtlanticMike Posted February 19, 2021 Author Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Just because there are a few dedicated anti-mormons among the ex-mormons does not mean that the missionaries are going to be confronted everywhere they go with questions they can't answer. And you are making big assumptions about how large the exodus out of the church is or is going to be, and how vocal all the exiters are going to be. I hope you are aware that just because someone "joins" a subreddit does not mean that they are a legitimate member of the subject group? I'm on Reddit, by the way, though I hardly ever post. I'm u/Cyberherbalist. Although before today, I hadn't troubled myself to seek out any of these ex-Mormon subreddits (just had a look, and am convinced I don't want to tread into that cesspool), I could easily join such a subreddit to respond to it in defense of the Church, and then there'd be someone, somewhere, claiming that there's one more member of an ex-mormon subreddit. Are all the 189k members of r/exmormon former LDS? Or is there a mixture of former members, inactive members, active members still in good standing who are doubting, active members looking for a good joke (lots of memes there, btw), defenders of the Church trying to be a moderating influence, and never-members who live in SLC and can't let a moment roll by without dissing the Church? I'd guess there's plenty more types there than this. How many of these are active posters on the subreddit? Unless you can conduct a scientific poll of subreddit members, you can't reasonably conclude anything about them. I remember a story told by a member of the Church who left the Church, joined Ex-Mormons for Jesus, and on one occasion went to help out at his local group's county fair booth. On his first shift there he asked his shift co-worker when he left the Church, only to have him say he was never a Mormon. He was surprised at this, and the other fellow explained how they liked to have at least one actual ex-Mormon on duty at the booth, but couldn't always achieve that. It turned out that the majority of the members of his chapter hadn't ever so much as darkened the door of an LDS chapel. They were largely Evangelicals who were fighting the good fight against the LDS church. Things don't always turn out the way they appear. r/atheism has 2.6 million members, by the way. A lot more than r/exmormon. For what that's worth... Yes I understand what you're saying. But look at me, all it took was my brother in law sending me a link to the fairmormon videos and poof, now I'm on here talking to you trying to work my way through a faith crisis. I'm venturing out looking at different information, its a cumulative affect I would think. So, the more exmormons sending information to faithful family members is going to reduce the number of faithful members.
Stargazer Posted February 19, 2021 Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Yes I understand what you're saying. But look at me, all it took was my brother in law sending me a link to the fairmormon videos and poof, now I'm on here talking to you trying to work my way through a faith crisis. I'm venturing out looking at different information, its a cumulative affect I would think. So, the more exmormons sending information to faithful family members is going to reduce the number of faithful members. Yeah, maybe, but I doubt it. You know how it is about relatively rare events, right? If it happens to you, it is not rare. To you. There is a tendency to think that if it's happening to you, it's happening to everyone. It's sometimes called "anecdotal evidence." I've been in this Church since 1966, active almost the entire time, and it's only happened once to me that a family member sent me any information/claptrap that could be described as anti-Mormon. And it was something I had heard about years before that I was totally immunized against already. Just because it's raining where you are doesn't mean we are all getting wet. I suppose that the opposite is true, as well: it's not raining here, so you must be dry, too! By the way, I sympathize with your faith crisis, and wish you well on it. I've had some very minor faith crises (well, "crisis" might be an exaggeration), but I had significant previous spiritual experiences to buoy me up.
let’s roll Posted February 19, 2021 Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Yes I understand what you're saying. But look at me, all it took was my brother in law sending me a link to the fairmormon videos and poof, now I'm on here talking to you trying to work my way through a faith crisis. I'm venturing out looking at different information, its a cumulative affect I would think. So, the more exmormons sending information to faithful family members is going to reduce the number of faithful members. My experience has been the only way folks having a faith crisis put the crisis behind them is by taking it to the source of all wisdom who has promised to share that wisdom with every one of His children who seek it with the requisite intent. Trying any other method may result in tamping down the crisis for a season but without a foundational relationship with Deity, the crisis typically resurfaces. Hopefully coming to this site provides you some comfort that your spiritual siblings are in your corner, but none of us can permanently remove fear and doubt and give you the peace of mind and spirit that you seek. We can only invite you to commune with your Father and the Prince of Peace. Godspeed to you. 3
Ahab Posted February 19, 2021 Posted February 19, 2021 5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: Yes I understand what you're saying. But look at me, all it took was my brother in law sending me a link to the fairmormon videos and poof, now I'm on here talking to you trying to work my way through a faith crisis. I'm venturing out looking at different information, its a cumulative affect I would think. So, the more exmormons sending information to faithful family members is going to reduce the number of faithful members. That's a weird way to live life. And no it doesn't necessarily work that way. Your faithful family members can remain faithful even when other people disagree with them and believe things they do not believe. It all comes down to who people choose to believe.
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) On 2/19/2021 at 11:44 PM, AtlanticMike said: Here's reality, band width and the spread of the internet will be the biggest problem for all churches in the future, if you want to put your head in the sand and sing primary songs to make yourself feel better, then go ahead. I can't decide yet whether you're projecting your own genuine discomfort with answering questions onto missionaries (and the rest of us) or whether you genuinely hope that missionaries (and, by extension, the rest of us) can't answer people's questions without being uncomfortable. No doubt there are some in the Church who do fall into that category. I haven't found very many missionaries who do, and I certainly do not. In any case, you may want to watch out for the impact that comments such as the one above might have on your carefully crafted persona. On 2/20/2021 at 2:40 AM, AtlanticMike said: So, the more exmormons sending information to faithful family members is going to reduce the number of faithful members. Again, an unnecessarily dim view of your fellow Saints. Projection or wish? Edited February 22, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Tacenda Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) On 2/18/2021 at 12:55 PM, Stargazer said: Just noting that the term "excommunication" is no longer used. It's called "Withdrawal of membership" now. This is new to me. It kind of bothers me though, it almost sounds like withdrawal is coming from the individual themselves such as someone resigning. It feels like the church doesn't want to look as if they excommunicate people. I guess it could come across as the church withdrew their membership, but sort of seems deceiving and doesn't differentiate. Edited February 22, 2021 by Tacenda
AtlanticMike Posted February 22, 2021 Author Posted February 22, 2021 On 2/19/2021 at 3:48 PM, Ahab said: That's a weird way to live life. And no it doesn't necessarily work that way. Your faithful family members can remain faithful even when other people disagree with them and believe things they do not believe. It all comes down to who people choose to believe. One thing I've never understood about the majority of mormons is when somebody leaves the church there's this phrase about exmormons. "they leave the church but cant leave it alone" . That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why? Because as mormons we dont leave anyone alone!! How many religions do you know that knock on millions upon millions of doors every year. Me, I only know of two, us and the jws. What about the motto, every member a missionary? My point being, once someone leaves, there's a really good chance that a large proportion of exmormons are going to turn their focus on trying to reach out to mormons to share with them the new information they have found. It's part if who they are because that's what they've been taught from birth. It's a problem for the church in my opinion. Mormons/exmormons are willing to go the extra mile to prove they're correct in what they believe compared to other religions. I dont think once your an exmormon that willingness to go the extra mile turns off, it's just redirected to teaching mormons that Mormonism is wrong. I could be wrong though.
AtlanticMike Posted February 22, 2021 Author Posted February 22, 2021 11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I cant't decide yet whether you're projecting your own genuine discomfort with answering questions onto missionaries (and the rest of us) or whether you genuinely hope that missionaries (and, by extension, the rest of us) can't answer people's questions without being uncomfortable. No doubt there are some in the Church who do fall into that category. I haven't found very many missionaries who do, and I certainly do not. In any case, you may want to watch out for the impact that comments such as the one above might have on your carefully crafted persona You do realize I said the internet is going to make it harder for ALL churches, not just our church. And I'm absolutely correct. 30 years ago missionaries could sit down and teach the lesson without being interrupted. Now, all an investigator has to do is search google and there's 1000s of sites negative toward Mormonism. You know how many missionaries I've talked to that say they made it inside the front door to only be bombarded with questions like, "why did your prophet have sex with 14 yearold girls"? There are websites dedicated to questions you ask mormon missionaries! Here is my prediction. In the future missionaries will stop knocking on doors. The internet will be the new mission field. And service will be ramped up 100x more than what it is now. People are desperate for help. It's funny, to me its seems like even with all the new social media sights connecting people, people are actually getting lonelier and more depressed. You know this is the second time you've insinuated that I'm a "troll". But that's ok, I realize you still have your head in the sand.
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