Treatment of Mormons outside the USA

[poptart]

Curious how members of the LDS church are treated outside the USA.  Many here take for granted the religious freedom they still have and how other countries don't allow the things they do here.  That being said, for those of you in Europe, what have you noticed?  Have a friend who's brother served in Germany, he said that while they still fund missions the conversion rates were dismal.  For those of you across the pond, how do the native Catholics treat you?  How about the Orthodox?  Also, going to assume that the Protestants really don't care?  Your input is appreciated.

[Meadowchik]

When I was an active member in Switzerland, France, and the UK, it's more like most haven't even heard of the church. 

[JustAnAustralian]

Most here who know of us, know us because of the missionaries (and SouthPark & BoM Musical). However many still don't actually know us. I had one person tell me that Mormons didn't celebrate Christmas (I told here they did and I was one so I should know. I don't think she was happy about that).

Generally people think of us as just one among many Christian religions, but more strict/hardcore than others.

[poptart]

31 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

When I was an active member in Switzerland, France, and the UK, it's more like most haven't even heard of the church. 

I've heard that.

9 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Most here who know of us, know us because of the missionaries (and SouthPark & BoM Musical). However many still don't actually know us. I had one person tell me that Mormons didn't celebrate Christmas (I told here they did and I was one so I should know. I don't think she was happy about that).

Generally people think of us as just one among many Christian religions, but more strict/hardcore than others.

You're in Australia?  I've heard the Catholic church still has influence there.  I'm not really religious but when I do anything churchy it's usually mass.  Mom went to BYUH and I have LDS relatives so that's my ties with the religion.  

[JustAnAustralian]

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

You're in Australia?

Correct.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

I've heard the Catholic church still has influence there.

The Catholic Church as an organisation has lots of fingers in lots of pies, with multiple hospitals and schools (of all levels, including a university), as well as various charity ties etc. This has meant that a lot of high profile Australians and high level members of government (again, of different levels) have been Catholic. A former Prime Minster initially trained to join the Catholic Priesthood before deciding to go into politics for instance. High profile people interact with each other, and so Catholic friendly opinions get air-time.

So it'd be somewhat like how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has influence in Utah. It's not the church itself calling the shots, but members of the church are often likely to follow church doctrine or policies or requests from church leaders in their political decisions (a recent example being same-sex marriage laws).

The Anglican Church is in a  similar position with schools and charities etc, leading to people in high level positions coming from an Anglican background, and thus having that influence.

 

As an aside, our current Prime Minister is a member of a Pentecostal church, so that strand of Christianity and its beliefs are currently in the limelight (and coming into play in political decisions).

[poptart]

10 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Correct.

The Catholic Church as an organisation has lots of fingers in lots of pies, with multiple hospitals and schools (of all levels, including a university), as well as various charity ties etc. This has meant that a lot of high profile Australians and high level members of government (again, of different levels) have been Catholic. A former Prime Minster initially trained to join the Catholic Priesthood before deciding to go into politics for instance. High profile people interact with each other, and so Catholic friendly opinions get air-time.

So it'd be somewhat like how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has influence in Utah. It's not the church itself calling the shots, but members of the church are often likely to follow church doctrine or policies or requests from church leaders in their political decisions (a recent example being same-sex marriage laws).

The Anglican Church is in a  similar position with schools and charities etc, leading to people in high level positions coming from an Anglican background, and thus having that influence.

 

As an aside, our current Prime Minister is a member of a Pentecostal church, so that strand of Christianity and its beliefs are currently in the limelight (and coming into play in political decisions).

Ah, so like it's always been in a lot of the world.  They made their presence known last year, was interesting to watch what a few of the orgs here did.  What's fascinating here is so many Protestant churches are quickly going to the wayside, they just don't have the resources nor people anymore.  It's politics, they played the game foolishly I think.  You can be political and opinionative all you like so long as you have the resources and some good will.  Take the Latter day saints here, sure there are more than a few who do not like the LGBT community and have all kinds of mean homophobic things to say.  Meanwhile in Utah, the church has done a ton of good for them as well as people of color.  An LDS friend of mine has an Asian spouse so like me he's sensitive to racism and the entitlement a lot of people here have, the last conference they had was amazing, much was said about racism and how it has no place in the church.  Needless to say, the Catholic church is quite diverse here.  Not too thrilled with the stance some bishops here take on social issues.  Still, when you consider the social good they do here as well as the ties they have to schools and the medical industry, a lot of that gets glossed over.  About 20% of the churches built here in the last 20 years were built by the Catholic church, especially in rural areas.  

 

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

When I was an active member in Switzerland, France, and the UK, it's more like most haven't even heard of the church. 

Heck when I was a kid in New York in the '50's I had never heard of such a thing.  Finally when I did I was told it was a religion that worshiped Indians as Saints

[Peacefully]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Heck when I was a kid in New York in the '50's I had never heard of such a thing.  Finally when I did I was told it was a religion that worshiped Indians as Saints

When I was a kid in Texas, the only “Mormons” I knew were the Osmonds, lol. 

[poptart]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Heck when I was a kid in New York in the '50's I had never heard of such a thing.  Finally when I did I was told it was a religion that worshiped Indians as Saints

I have racist relatives who still think Mormons are second class citizens.  Brought up a while ago it was DI and a few church members I knew who even tried to help me when I was going through a domestic violence issue, they didn't lift a finger.  it's also the LDS church who works with other charities to do anything, far as I can tell most do very little anymore, among Christians anyway.  

[2BizE]

I have been told by a few different people that in many countries Mormonism is taught as a cult in secondary and college curriculum.  Anyone experience that?

[Hamba Tuhan]

50 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I have been told by a few different people that in many countries Mormonism is taught as a cult in secondary and college curriculum.  Anyone experience that?

Nope.

[JustAnAustralian]

It's not my experience here, though the extent of my religious education through the school system was pretty much limited to gluing glitter onto candles for Christmas.

I'm not sure what is currently in various curricula in Australia, but as mentioned above, we have a lot of Catholic and Anglican run schools here, so I could easily see them having people there teaching those things, even if not officially.

[poptart]

12 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

It's not my experience here, though the extent of my religious education through the school system was pretty much limited to gluing glitter onto candles for Christmas.

I'm not sure what is currently in various curricula in Australia, but as mentioned above, we have a lot of Catholic and Anglican run schools here, so I could easily see them having people there teaching those things, even if not officially.

How expensive are the church run schools there?  Here they can be very expensive.

[rongo]

14 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I have been told by a few different people that in many countries Mormonism is taught as a cult in secondary and college curriculum.  Anyone experience that?

In some European countries, missionaries are regularly asked to visit schools and introduce the Church, answer questions, etc. That happened to me several times in the mid 1990s as a missionary, and it's happened to my son in Norway (he gets back from his mission in June). It's really interesting that in much more secular countries than the U.S., they still not only have but require religion instruction. They see it more as cultural well-roundedness, and aren't afraid of kids "getting" religion. In Germany, we would get a phone call from the Religionsunterricht teacher, asking if we were the right people to talk to about explaining our church beliefs for about an hour and answering questions. We would ask how many students, and have a Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith testimony pamphlet for each of them. The questions were really good and fun to answer, too. Mostly about practices, but also doctrinal or historical. I would imagine that they would lean even more that way with the internet. 

The focus is on historical Christianity (Catholic and Lutheran), world religions, etc. I know that Islam was also invited, and Mormons were invited if the teacher wanted to broaden it out even further. Students can also control their "mandatory religion elective" somewhat (i.e., more heavily focus on Catholicism or Lutheranism), but the goal is for students to have a broad base of understanding about basic beliefs and issues and how they fit into the past, present, and future. 

People would lose their minds in the U.S. over church/state separation if this sort of thing happened in public schools.  

The Osmonds and Mormons in Westerns were most people in Germany's immediate reactions in the mid 90s to the term "Mormon."  Many people in Chicago had never heard of Mormons, either. I think our large high school had five LDS kids in it (late 80s, early 90s).

[rongo]

14 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I have been told by a few different people that in many countries Mormonism is taught as a cult in secondary and college curriculum.  Anyone experience that?

My mission was in northern Germany (heavily, but very nominally Lutheran). People would often sneer that we are a Sekte (cult), and we would point out that the very word is related to the word Sektion (section). What does that make the Lutheran Church? They broke away from the Catholic Church. Most people are atheist/agnostic, or so "inactive" in Lutheranism as to be functionally atheist/agnostic, so they didn't really care. It was a pejorative meant to end the discussion. 

The treatment of other faiths in school was very respectful and professional, at least in the Gymnasien, in my experience. 

[poptart]

53 minutes ago, rongo said:

In some European countries, missionaries are regularly asked to visit schools and introduce the Church, answer questions, etc. That happened to me several times in the mid 1990s as a missionary, and it's happened to my son in Norway (he gets back from his mission in June). It's really interesting that in much more secular countries than the U.S., they still not only have but require religion instruction. They see it more as cultural well-roundedness, and aren't afraid of kids "getting" religion. In Germany, we would get a phone call from the Religionsunterricht teacher, asking if we were the right people to talk to about explaining our church beliefs for about an hour and answering questions. We would ask how many students, and have a Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith testimony pamphlet for each of them. The questions were really good and fun to answer, too. Mostly about practices, but also doctrinal or historical. I would imagine that they would lean even more that way with the internet. 

The focus is on historical Christianity (Catholic and Lutheran), world religions, etc. I know that Islam was also invited, and Mormons were invited if the teacher wanted to broaden it out even further. Students can also control their "mandatory religion elective" somewhat (i.e., more heavily focus on Catholicism or Lutheranism), but the goal is for students to have a broad base of understanding about basic beliefs and issues and how they fit into the past, present, and future. 

People would lose their minds in the U.S. over church/state separation if this sort of thing happened in public schools.  

The Osmonds and Mormons in Westerns were most people in Germany's immediate reactions in the mid 90s to the term "Mormon."  Many people in Chicago had never heard of Mormons, either. I think our large high school had five LDS kids in it (late 80s, early 90s).

I'm a fan of the German system as well as state churches, would solve a lot of problems.  Thing is, this is the USA, freedom of religion/separation of church and state.  Guess we'll see how things play out.  

47 minutes ago, rongo said:

My mission was in northern Germany (heavily, but very nominally Lutheran). People would often sneer that we are a Sekte (cult), and we would point out that the very word is related to the word Sektion (section). What does that make the Lutheran Church? They broke away from the Catholic Church. Most people are atheist/agnostic, or so "inactive" in Lutheranism as to be functionally atheist/agnostic, so they didn't really care. It was a pejorative meant to end the discussion. 

The treatment of other faiths in school was very respectful and professional, at least in the Gymnasien, in my experience. 

Last German speaker on one side died a few years ago, had lots of old stories handed down to me.  From what i've been told, the church was and over there still is an institution.  In the USA, Christianity is more individualistic, feelings based and contrary.  In Germany, businesses close on Sunday and religious holidays.  The families are more stable, there is less divorce and from what i've heard child welfare is a bigger deal.  Here in the USA we have a huge problem with privilege especially in WASP heavy areas.  They have theirs, are used to having things the marginalized segments don't, assume the poor deserve their own misery and act/vote accordingly.  We sure are seeing that play out here with how nasty people are getting.  Something else I'll give the LDS church, as an org they understand charity, unity and helping people, even outsiders.  It disgusts me how political Lutheran denominations here are.  Last year most Lutheran churches closed their doors.  I know a few independent pastors who handed out communiuon to the elderly, no one else raised a finger.  Meanwhile, from what I heard IRL the LDS church did far, far more.  Only ones who also did something to help people, Catholic Charities.  

TL;DR, it all boils down to culture and to an extent entitlement and privilege, I think anyway.

Also wanted to add, the church over there does a lot more than they do here now.  The Lutheran Church still has lay/monastic orders that have ecumenical relations with Rome and the Church of England.  These guys are still around as well, they work together with the Order of St. John in England and the Catholic Order of Malta. 

Johanniter-Unfall-Hilfe | Johanniter

JHG Texas – Welcome to JHG Texas

These guys have a few spots here but far, not much.  As an org they are Lutheran, in Texas they're big on nursing. This is what I look at with religion, what good it does and how accepting it is of the marginalized, the least of these.  I don't see that here much.  I praise the likes of the EKD for accepting athiests and the poor as well as the well off, wish they did that here more.

Edited February 8, 2021 by poptart

[rongo]

16 minutes ago, poptart said:

I'm a fan of the German system as well as state churches, would solve a lot of problems.  Thing is, this is the USA, freedom of religion/separation of church and state.  Guess we'll see how things play out.  

You know, that's a really good point. Germany (all of Europe, actually) is a lot more secular than the U.S., but we are rapidly heading that way. Yes, despite, that secularism, Europe still sees the religion of their past as being an important cultural heritage, and wants its youth to know about it (even while not really believing the religious side of it). Freedom of religion is probably just as robust in Western Europe, I would say, as it is here, but as you point out, they still have the state churches (which means that you pay a small "church tax" if you are a member of the state churches; it is collected by the government and given to the Catholic or Lutheran churches). 

 

20 minutes ago, poptart said:

From what I've been told, the church was and over there still is an institution.  In the USA, Christianity is more individualistic, feelings based and contrary.  In Germany, businesses close on Sunday and religious holidays.  The families are more stable, there is less divorce and from what I've heard child welfare is a bigger deal. 

Germany is probably the strongest LDS center of Europe, but it pales in comparison to clout and its effect on member families compared to the U.S. Compared to other countries, though, there is a lot more leadership experience and commitment (there's a reason why Germany is proportionately over-represented among general authorities). 

I don't know that I would say that the family is more stable in Germany, or that there is less divorce than here (it looks like our rates are similar). They do put their all into their children, few as they have (most of Europe is below the replacement threshold).  In both countries, many are simply never getting married in the first place, and that is and will have disastrous consequences in coming years. 

Kindergeld is insane! 200-300 Euros per child, per month, until they are in their 20s. How do they pay for it? Very high taxes. Germany is actually wanting to encourage more mothers to stay home with their children, and to have more children, so this money is a government incentive.

[poptart]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

You know, that's a really good point. Germany (all of Europe, actually) is a lot more secular than the U.S., but we are rapidly heading that way. Yes, despite, that secularism, Europe still sees the religion of their past as being an important cultural heritage, and wants its youth to know about it (even while not really believing the religious side of it). Freedom of religion is probably just as robust in Western Europe, I would say, as it is here, but as you point out, they still have the state churches (which means that you pay a small "church tax" if you are a member of the state churches; it is collected by the government and given to the Catholic or Lutheran churches). 

 

Germany is probably the strongest LDS center of Europe, but it pales in comparison to clout and its effect on member families compared to the U.S. Compared to other countries, though, there is a lot more leadership experience and commitment (there's a reason why Germany is proportionately over-represented among general authorities). 

I don't know that I would say that the family is more stable in Germany, or that there is less divorce than here (it looks like our rates are similar). They do put their all into their children, few as they have (most of Europe is below the replacement threshold).  In both countries, many are simply never getting married in the first place, and that is and will have disastrous consequences in coming years. 

Kindergeld is insane! 200-300 Euros per child, per month, until they are in their 20s. How do they pay for it? Very high taxes. Germany is actually wanting to encourage more mothers to stay home with their children, and to have more children, so this money is a government incentive.

Makes no sense for people to be at each others throats, divided we fall.

I'd be very curious what WASP levels here are, most of the people I see having kids are Asian and Hispanic families.  Moms side?  They're doing fantastic.  My fathers side?  Seems like all the kids have some kind of mental issue plus are on meds.  Also, suicide and drug abuse is skyrocketing here.  A lot of it is ignored, again there's that entitlement, I think.  It makes more sense to have fewer children and focus on them.  I have a few mainland friends here who are going to be parents soon, they're now realizing they're going to be competing for resoruces with all the other well off transplants.  The cousins I have in maui?  Their kids were learning a musical instrument at the age of 5, meanwhile I look at the divorce and out of wedlock births here, sad.  What I find disgusting is how the more privilieged people here look down at them yet feel like the rest of us should come to their rescue now that they're being outvoted by people different than them.  You don't get to oppress people then have them protect you from the consequences of bad choices.

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I have been told by a few different people that in many countries Mormonism is taught as a cult in secondary and college curriculum.  Anyone experience that?

Not in Britain when I was there. Occasionally RE (Religious Education) teachers would ask us to do a short bit on “Mormonism”.

Then again I did run into a guy who, when he found out what church we were from, pulled out a little booklet and found us and declared that we were a cult. We were right next to Catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[JustAnAustralian]

6 hours ago, poptart said:

How expensive are the church run schools there?  Here they can be very expensive.

 

Government run schools are essentially free (mostly paid by taxes with an occasional very small fee for some people).

Independent schools (most of which are run by religions of various flavours) can be significantly more. This section of a wikipedia article mentions some costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Australia#Independent_schools

[poptart]

2 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

 

Government run schools are essentially free (mostly paid by taxes with an occasional very small fee for some people).

Independent schools (most of which are run by religions of various flavours) can be significantly more. This section of a wikipedia article mentions some costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Australia#Independent_schools

Huh, just like here then.

[poptart]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not in Britain when I was there. Occasionally RE (Religious Education) teachers would ask us to do a short bit on “Mormonism”.

Then again I did run into a guy who, when he found out what church we were from, pulled out a little booklet and found us and declared that we were a cult. We were right next to Catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

>Catholics.

Uh oh......

Guess that means Protties don't want me either, down to Latter Day Saints and Catholics.

[The Nehor]

On 2/8/2021 at 7:55 PM, poptart said:

>Catholics.

Uh oh......

Guess that means Protties don't want me either, down to Latter Day Saints and Catholics.

To be fair he was part of some weird evangelical church that was weird even by evangelical standards.

[poptart]

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair he was part of some weird evangelical church that was weird even by evangelical standards.

Ewww heresy.  

 

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Ewww heresy.  

 

 

And you know what we do about heresy.